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GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 12:59:25 2017 OverviewEntire bill as PDF Have fun... |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 13:48:25 2017, in response to GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 12:59:25 2017. Wrong for Americans, wrong for America. Comply with what we've got and fix what needs fixing.it's not perfect, but it's better than either of these hateful proposals. May they both wither in the light of day like the vampires they are.Let's face the facts, single payer is inevitable. It's the only real solution to this. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 13:53:44 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 13:48:25 2017. They will claim California is trying that and causes costs to escalate due to lack of competition.Yet Canada, and most of the rest of the world has single payer, and universal coverage, and does so half our costs. Then Canadians live 3 years longer than we do. Medicare is of course single payer and no one will give that up. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 22 14:11:29 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 13:53:44 2017. Just remember, the sales taxes in the eastern Canadian provinces range from 15%-18%. Someway, somehow, someone has to pay for their highly acclaimed health care! Enjoy your nice healthy ride in your new $30,000 car, after you pay the sales tax on it! |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:15:06 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 13:48:25 2017. I'm afraid single payer is not the solution.I've had single payer. In the Army the care was good*, but they determined what care you would get, whether you were sick or not, how the care would be administered, and when the care was finished. And the VA is single payer... let that be a warning. People with faith in government think that if anything is wrong with a "single [government] payer" system, why we'll just pass a law or regulation and everything is fixed. TNHIW. *Lest you take that is government generosity remember that, in a real sense, the Army owned you and they were protecting their investment. A sick soldier is a soldier that isn't repaying their investment in training, salary and benefits. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:31:59 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 22 14:11:29 2017. In Virginia and some other states, you pay property taxes on your car.Their disposable income is no worse than ours. Their cars are no older than ours. They have zero health care premiums, zero credit card debt from medical bills, zero personal bankruptcies from medical bills. They don't envy our system, or far more than 42,000 of the 34 million of them would come here to get it. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:33:14 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:15:06 2017. VA sucks, but Medicare works pretty good. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:45:56 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:33:14 2017. Yes, but remember that while the Government runs Medicare, it is not exactly free. Parts B and D have premiums and deductibles. Part A is free (but not for all) and hospitalization has a $1300+ deductible each benefit period and hefty daily coinsurance if you're unlucky enough to be in the hospital longer than 60 days.And you pay Medicare tax your entire life as long as you're working, even if you're over 65 and don't use the benefits. I may be wrong, but when people hear "single payer" I think many assume there will be no medical or hospitalization out-of-pocket. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:56:11 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:31:59 2017. There is a price to be paid for that financial freedom. From ctv.ca:"A survey by the Fraser Institute found a median wait of 20 weeks for 'medically necessary' treatments and procedures in 2016 – the longest-recorded wait time since the think tank began tracking wait times." And though the government "signs the checks" you're still paying through taxes. You know, I had HIP when I was much younger, effectively a single-payer system, then all-clinic, and it was OK ... usually. Keyword is "much younger," when nothing much went wrong with me. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:57:27 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:45:56 2017. Still better than nothing at all.I just got a colonoscopy, which you should get every 5 years after certain age. Cost me nothing, but the EOB statements said it cost $6,531. People with no insurance will not get it, and then maybe they'll get a late stage cancer all over their colon, spread to the liver, and they'll die with little notice. No insurance means no preventive care for most. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:59:40 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:57:27 2017. Still better than nothing at all.That's the key phrase. The standard for good medical care shouldn't be "better than nothing at all." |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:05:16 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:56:11 2017. Yes Canada has a wait-list issue, hence 42,000 of them come here. I'd prefer their system over ours nonetheless.I have a friend up there with little money and no money for insurance. He now has health problems (heart attack, esophagus and stomach ulcers, superbug infection this spring, bad accident and near death experience with broken ribs with a bus hitting him on a bike a few years ago). If he were in the States, he'd be dead for sure by now. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:07:03 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:05:16 2017. If he were in the States, he'd be dead for sure by now.You mean without insurance? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:08:31 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:07:03 2017. Yes. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:09:40 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:45:56 2017. I may be wrong, but when people hear "single payer" I think many assume there will be no medical or hospitalization out-of-pocketPeople can think anything they want. However, US Medicare is generally considered "single payer" and obviously has lots of non-covered patient costs. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:11:46 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:08:31 2017. Once again, "something is better than nothing." That's a dismal standard. |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 15:11:48 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 14:31:59 2017. Exactly. People adjust their lives to the level of taxation, especially when they know the alternative may mean less taxes, but greater, unknowable, inevitable expense overall. Medical care in the US is WAAAY more expensive. It's also far more justifed when your tax money goes to something that's real and tangible in your own life. You feel you get something for the money. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:12:48 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:07:03 2017. Isn't the whole ACA/AHCA discussion a matter of what happens to the estimated 23 million people who will lose their insurance under AHCA?Everything else is a minor detail by comparison. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:13:16 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:09:40 2017. Yes indeed. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:19:23 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:12:48 2017. Isn't the whole ACA/AHCA discussion a matter of what happens to the estimated 23 million people who will lose their insurance under AHCA?No, because it's also about the insurance everyone else will have and what it will cost. The problem with ACA was it didn't deal with the uninsured as the central issue, or it could have been solved by finding a way to insure the uninsured, in the manner of other government health programs, like Medicaid. But instead it had to redo the entire system, including the 80% of people who liked their current insurance, under the lie that "if you like..." That was and is the basic failing of ACA and probably AHCA as well. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:21:48 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 15:11:48 2017. And if you need any "medically necessary" specialty care in Canada you are now waiting 20 weeks on average, which is why over 45,000 Canadians came to the U.S. last year for the WAAAY more expensive, but WAAAY more available, medical care. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:47:17 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:19:23 2017. But instead it had to redo the entire system, including the 80% of people who liked their current insurance, under the lie that "if you like..."Huh? My employer-provided health insurance has had only very minor changes due to HCA. And that is true of almost all employer-provided insurance. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:50:44 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:11:46 2017. That's what we have. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:54:02 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:47:17 2017. My former employer plan, which I have, has had its annual premium increase cut in half to 4% and no cost at all to me for an annual physical. That isa direct result of ACA.Generic Rx prices are collapsing, My flu and shingles shots last year and my colonoscopy 3 weeks ago cost me nothing. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:55:47 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 15:11:48 2017. Canada also has a lot of free college tuition. So zero tuition, zero college debt service, all contribute to their high HST, but bottom line, they are no worse off than us. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:56:44 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:54:02 2017. I don't understand how this would be a consequence of ACA, any more than I understand all the claims by people who say ACA has massively raised the cost of their employer-sponsored plans. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 16:00:43 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:21:48 2017. 42,000/34,000.000 = 0.12%I'd say Canadians are pretty satisfied with what they have. Our "WAAAY" more available is because 20 million of our own still don't get any. It's"WAAAY" more expensive partially because you're paying for them when they hit the Emergency room, when it is often too late, and your Co-Pays and Premiums will eat that. The Insurance company shareholders certainly won't. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 16:01:49 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:55:47 2017. It depends on your income. I'm sure America's system benefits Trump's Cabinet. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 16:07:13 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 15:56:44 2017. The law had affects on Medicare and private health plans. "Free" annual physicals was a direct result on many plans.Should they kill ACA, I'd expect that to go away, but the GOP won't tell you that. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jun 22 18:07:05 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:54:02 2017. << Generic Rx prices are collapsing >>Au Contraire |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 18:11:48 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Dave on Thu Jun 22 18:07:05 2017. I know what I pay. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Jun 22 19:08:13 2017, in response to GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 12:59:25 2017. Now what happens if this bill doesn't have the votes to pass ?Single payer or ACA collapses on it's own weight and it's back to square 1 ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Jun 22 19:10:08 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 13:53:44 2017. But medicare doesn't pay everything. You still need a supplement. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Jun 22 19:10:49 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 13:48:25 2017. And you've always been for single payer? |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 19:19:07 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:19:23 2017. So I've looked a bit at summaries of BCRA. It keeps the Cadillac plan tax, which is just about the only change ACA made to employer sponsored plans.So what is your point? |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 20:08:33 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Jun 22 19:08:13 2017. AHCA is more likely to collapse than the unamended ACA. Then they'll blame it on legacy aspects of ACA. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 20:09:25 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Chicagomotorman on Thu Jun 22 19:10:08 2017. I favor a system where the government pays the basics and you pay for everything else from the free market. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 20:22:14 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 20:08:33 2017. This is already going on. |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Thu Jun 22 20:27:45 2017, in response to GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 12:59:25 2017. people are gonna die in the streets |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Dave on Thu Jun 22 21:20:57 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 18:11:48 2017. Consider yourself fortunate. |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 21:55:16 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 22 15:50:44 2017. Lots of people have been settling for mediocre coverage for a very very long time. That's nothing new.It takes a minimum of eight weeks to see a dermatologist. Four to six for a routine physical. Eight for a pulmonologist (even with an active cancer diagnosis under treatment). This is within the past year right here in NY. I imagine it's worse elsewhere. |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 22:04:41 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 15:21:48 2017. If there were sufficient providers to meet demand that wouldn't happen. Especially in rural areas. Canada has a lot of rural area, and that skews the stats. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 22:09:18 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 20:09:25 2017. I favor Medicare (for the most part as it is, barring the Medicare advantage thing (which is a buyin for private insurance) and adding actual prescription coverage sans donuts) for all, with private market supplements. Including basic dental as well. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 22:51:37 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Dave on Thu Jun 22 18:07:05 2017. Capitalism at work. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 23:10:34 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:15:06 2017. I've had single payer.In the Army the care was good*, but they determined what care you would get, whether you were sick or not, how the care would be administered, and when the care was finished. And the VA is single payer... let that be a warning.... You're confusing single payer with socialized medicine. The two examples you gave, Army and VA, are socialized medicine. The doctors are salaried. They work for the government. The hospitals are built and operated by the government. This is what the UK has. This is essentially what HIP used to be. Doctors are spared the expense of equipping their offices, malpractice insurance, etc. Medicare is single payer. Except for Medicare Advantage, there is only one company providing medical insurance, the government. However, the doctors and hospitals are are in private or group practice. They agree to accept Medicare's rate schedule. They bill Medicare directly. However, doctors are responsible for maintaining their own offices, malpractice insurance, etc. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 23:13:38 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:59:40 2017. The standard for good medical care...What's the standard for "good medical care?" Life expectancy, infant mortality...? The US ranks pretty far down the scale. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 23:20:53 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by SLRT on Thu Jun 22 14:45:56 2017. remember that while the Government runs Medicare, it is not exactly free.The advantage for single payer is lower administrative costs. The estimated administrative cost for private insurance is 17%. Medicare's administrative cost is 2%. Doctor billing is a big cost because each insurance company has a different set of forms. Computer billing programs are a lot of money, even for a small practice. The computer billing program for single payer countries is usually open source - zero cost. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Thu Jun 22 23:55:34 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 21:55:16 2017. Do you live in a cancer cluster area? |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Jun 23 13:08:12 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 22 20:09:25 2017. I favor a system where the government pays the basics and you pay for everything else from the free market.It's rarely paying for the basics that bankrupts you. |
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Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Jun 23 13:16:41 2017, in response to Re: GOP Senators Reveal Health Bill, posted by bingbong on Thu Jun 22 22:09:18 2017. Why are you against Medicare Advantage? It gives some choice in exchange for submitting to managed care. |
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