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| Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied (1375471) | |
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| (1375471) | |
Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 09:27:00 2016 LinkThere isn't actually 350 million pounds per week additional to give to the NHS once Britain leaves the EU. |
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Institute for Fiscal Studies is lying |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 27 09:51:20 2016, in response to Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 09:27:00 2016. Keep taking the Slimes and IFC (who were solidly on the "Remain" side) for granted, though. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Jun 27 09:52:55 2016, in response to Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 09:27:00 2016. Imagine my (complete lack of) surprise.It's a warning for us here, too. Look at the total horse puckey coming out of Donald Trump's mouth every day. People actually believe him, too, just as they believed those pushing Brexit over on the other side of the pond. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 10:51:58 2016, in response to Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 09:27:00 2016. And on the other side, George Soros just acknowledged the EU's lie:"The “Leave” campaign exploited the deteriorating refugee situation – symbolized by frightening images of thousands of asylum-seekers concentrating in Calais, desperate to enter Britain by any means necessary – to stoke fear of “uncontrolled” immigration from other EU member states. And the European authorities delayed important decisions on refugee policy in order to avoid a negative effect on the British referendum vote, thereby perpetuating scenes of chaos like the one in Calais. And Mr. Soros's prediction for EUEUEUEUEU? Now the catastrophic scenario that many feared has materialized, making the disintegration of the EU practically irreversible. Do read the whole article. It outlines the way the EU has screwed up, and he expects them to continue to screw up. The penchant of a thwarted arrogant bureaucracy is to become even more arrogant. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 11:21:49 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 10:51:58 2016. The EU, particularly the European Commission, is incompetent and arrogant.However, Britain has no obligation under EU rules to accept any refugees. It's EU citizens that they must allow to work in the UK. So the lies continue. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:25:44 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 11:21:49 2016. The fundamental lie was that the EU could be the US, with which it was set up in competition. The consequences of the lie could be avoided while there was stability and prosperity. It's when things go sour that the brioche hits the fan. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 11:31:22 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:25:44 2016. The can't be the US under their Article of Confederations-like setup. |
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| (1375494) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 11:34:37 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:25:44 2016. So what makes it different? It seems that the major difference here is that people have no problem with Mississippians moving to New York, but when its Poles moving to England, that's a bridge too far.So the real issue is that when there's prosperity, people don't mind the dirty foreigners but when they're poor they do. You see this in the United States, except that Mexicans and Central Americans are not automatically entitled to live and work in the United States and our government can legitimately exclude them. Is there another issue you're thinking of that makes the EU different? I don't think Brexit would have been less likely if the EU had a single defense force and single foreign affairs presence like the US. |
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| (1375495) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 11:34:47 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:25:44 2016. The fundamental lie was that the EU could be the US, with which it was set up in competition.Yes, but that lie has already been debunked with the Greek problems. The Brits had a right to decide whether they wanted to be in the EU, warts and all. The warts are many and they have been very visible for quite a few years now. The Brexit supporters flat out lied about what they would do if Britain withdrew. Personally, I think any MP has the right to vote against Brexit, which will bring down the government if successful and cause new national elections. They can say "I'm against Brexit and if you still want it now that you know the actual terms, just vote me out of office." |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 11:37:23 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 11:34:37 2016. And it's not like the US has always been a rock of stability? Remember Dixit? |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:50:26 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 11:31:22 2016. That fact didn't dampen their aspirations. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:53:02 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 11:37:23 2016. Before Dixit we had problems deciding how much we were a confederation of sovereigns and how much we were a federal nation. Stability wasn't the central issue. Too bad the answer was given in blood. Lots of it. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 11:55:57 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 11:53:02 2016. Indeed.The EU already has an existing framework in their treaties for countries who wish to exit the Union. We don't. Brexit is legitimate. Dixit was not. Unless they had won of course. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Jun 27 11:56:42 2016, in response to Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 09:27:00 2016. Our outrage over political lies is inversely proportional to our agreement with their political positions. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:06:12 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 11:34:37 2016. The issue is not just foreigners. There is the issue of remote unelected bureaucrats playing with the lives of diverse people and making decisions that please elites and screw others.As to the single defense and foreign policy presence, that is just not Europe. Their one substantial military adventure, in Yugoslavia, was saved from disaster only because the US military baled them out. Again. They evidently thought the US military was their military. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:09:24 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 11:55:57 2016. Brexit is legitimate. Dixit was not. Unless they had won of course.Good points. The illegitimacy was Dixit was decided ex post facto. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:11:41 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 11:34:47 2016. And it will mark democratic referenda in Britain as forever bullshit. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:12:13 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:06:12 2016. If they want to export to the EU, they still have to submit to those unelected bureaucrats just like American, Canadian, Chinese, etc exporters do.Ask the Norwegians. Ask the Swiss. |
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| (1375506) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:12:40 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Easy on Mon Jun 27 11:56:42 2016. Too obviously true to give it a +1, but I'll give it a +1 anyway. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:14:37 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:09:24 2016. yep.There is nothing in the Constiution to stop Congress from granting a Texit, Dixit or Nyexit. They just don't have to. The EU does. |
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| (1375508) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:15:13 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:12:13 2016. I think they can do that. It's called world trade. World trade is a negotiation. When you're ruled by a bureaucracy, you don't have that option. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:18:03 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:14:37 2016. I think a Texit, Dixit or Nyexit could constitutionally be considered a dispute between states, with the Supreme Court having primary jurisdiction. |
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| (1375510) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:23:42 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:15:13 2016. Generic world trade and Free Trade are two different things.We have trade with Eritrea but it's not free trade. NY can't stop Colorado from sending its products here. The Interstate Clause means that US trade is regulated from Washington. If Colorado seceded, they'd still have to comply with the edicts of unelected Washington bureaucrats if they want to send their stuff into the US. Except CO wouldn't have any say in the matter. WTO rules would allow us to impose some tariffs too. Britain is fucked. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:26:08 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:23:42 2016. Britain is fucked.Maybe. The EU is definitely fucked. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 12:35:42 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:11:41 2016. The British Constitution marks them as such. All referenda are advisory. Parliament cannot create a law that it cannot undo, and that includes a law making a referendum binding. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:38:11 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 12:14:37 2016. Nyexit sounds like some Russian refusing exit. |
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| (1375514) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:40:03 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 12:35:42 2016. Britain doesn't have a constitution. |
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| (1375515) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:41:27 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:38:11 2016. Da. |
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| (1375516) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:46:00 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 12:35:42 2016. Parliament could make a referendum binding to the extent that the referendum's provisions are automatically enacted. They could then prevent such from occurring by another act of Parliament. |
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| (1375517) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:46:22 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:40:03 2016. There's an informal constitution. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:52:51 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:46:22 2016. Like an open marriage. |
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| (1375521) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:54:27 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:06:12 2016. We have unelected bureaucrats in the US. They still answer to our elected government, but that doesn't stop people from complaining about it. And I don't know exactly how the EU works, but they do have a parliament. |
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| (1375522) | |
Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:54:51 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 12:52:51 2016. Good metaphor. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 13:07:55 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:54:27 2016. The bureaucrats who can manipulate out lives don't answer to the government; they answer to the executive. What do you think so much of the political turmoil in this country has been about? |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 13:10:44 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 12:54:27 2016. The European Commission is answerable to the European Parliament. I think the problem is that the Parliament is less willing to exert its authority than the US Congress is to exert authority over US regulators.I think the best solution for Britain would have been to elect representatives to the European Parliament who would have made a huge stink about some of the greatest EU stupidities. But they didn't. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 13:12:10 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 13:07:55 2016. This is a problem because the executive is hereditary? |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 13:13:52 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 13:07:55 2016. The bureaucrats who can manipulate out lives don't answer to the government; they answer to the executive.LOL. Every single Federal regulation can be overturned by an Act of Congress. Further, when Congress passes a law they can specify the extent to which a federal agency can create regulations to fill in the details. And finally, the courts can rule that a federal regulation exceeds the authority granted in the original enabling legislation. What do you think so much of the political turmoil in this country has been about? What you're telling me is that it's either people lying to their constituents in order to get elected, or people too stupid to realize how government works. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 13:15:39 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 13:12:10 2016. Of course. Bush, Clinton, Bush, [oops - things went slightly awry], Clinton. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 13:25:55 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 13:10:44 2016. I think the best solution for the world's fifth biggest economy is to be out of the failing EU.Given that, what's the best solution for the EU? George Soros thinks it's done. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:15:12 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 27 13:13:52 2016. great post! |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:18:36 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 13:25:55 2016. world's fifth biggest economyThe EU is the reason they are the world's fifth biggest economy. Now they can try Juche. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 14:42:31 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:18:36 2016. A lot depends on what the U.S. does. I noticed that Obama, after virtually threatening to treat Britain like a third world country was gushing about the Special Relationship after Brexit.You seem to think the EU will make out OK on this. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:49:30 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 14:42:31 2016. Trade between the US and Britain is negligible.We can enter in a free trade agreement with them and they'll still be fucked. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 14:56:33 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:49:30 2016. You didn't answer my question on the EU. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 15:09:12 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 14:49:30 2016. You're really getting off on "Britain Being Fucked."What about the EU? What's your fantasy there? |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 15:13:09 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 15:09:12 2016. nothing changes for the EU except that it will no longer include a country for which they had already granted too many exceptions. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 15:15:50 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 15:13:09 2016. and what's your fantasy about the EU?Are you an Ologist? It's in American businesses best interests that Europe be economically integrated and have common standards. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 15:29:02 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jun 27 15:15:50 2016. George Soros, who is not a conservative (to put it mildly) thinks the EU is on the way out. I believe that too. I think it was on the way out before Brexit. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 15:39:18 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 15:29:02 2016. Soros may see that the EU is on his way out. It doesn't mean he necessarily supports the EU disappearing or weakening. |
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Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 27 15:42:54 2016, in response to Re: Brexit Supporters: Oh, we lied, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 27 15:39:18 2016. That would make his assessment more honest then, wouldn't it? |
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