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Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 9 05:28:17 2016 Please note the title: "OP ED" ... means an opinion editorial for those who can't read.Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead By Max Boot I have been a Republican as long as I can remember. Joining the Grand Old Party seemed like a natural choice for someone like me who fled the Soviet Union as a boy and came to Los Angeles with his mother and grandmother in 1976. Refugees from communism, whether from Russia or Cuba, generally oppose socialism and embrace conservative political views. My allegiance to the GOP was cemented during the 1980s, when I was in high school and college and Ronald Reagan was in the White House. For me, Reagan was what John F. Kennedy had been to an earlier generation: an inspirational figure who shaped my worldview. Reagan had his faults, like JFK, but he was optimistic and gentlemanly. He was pro-free trade and pro-immigration. He believed in limited government at home and American leadership abroad. Distancing itself from Trump's toxicity could be the California GOP's salvation That's what I believed in too — and that's what I thought the Republican Party stood for. That's why, despite my disagreements with social conservatives, I worked as a foreign policy advisor to John McCain in 2008, Mitt Romney in 2012 and Marco Rubio this year. All of those candidates, different as they were, recognizably represented Reagan Republicanism. For the time being, at least, that Republican Party is dead. It was wounded by the tea party absolutists who insisted on political purity and rejected any compromise. Now it has been killed by Donald Trump. Trump is an ignorant demagogue who traffics in racist and misogynistic slurs and crazy conspiracy theories. He champions protectionism and isolationism — the policies that brought us the Great Depression and World War II. He wants to undertake a police-state roundup of undocumented immigrants and to bar Muslims from coming to this country. He encourages his followers to assault protesters and threatens to sue or smear critics. He would abandon Japan and South Korea and break up the most successful alliance in history — NATO. But he has kind words for tyrants such as Vladimir Putin. The risk of Trump winning, however remote, represents the biggest national security threat that the United States faces today. There has never been a major party nominee in U.S. history as unqualified for the presidency. The risk of Trump winning, however remote, represents the biggest national security threat that the United States faces today. But if I'm not for Trump, who am I for? Hillary Clinton is a centrist Democrat who is more hawkish than President Obama and far more principled and knowledgeable about foreign affairs than Trump, who is too unstable and erratic to be entrusted with the nuclear triad he has never heard of. Even in his prepared foreign policy speech couldn't pronounce “Tanzania.” For all her shortcomings (and there are many), Clinton would be far preferable to Trump. But I am not prepared to join the party that she leads, because so much of it appears to be well to her left. Grass-roots Democrats thrilled this year to Bernie Sanders, a self-professed socialist who is almost as extreme in his own way as Trump is. I don't “feel the Bern” and I can't make common cause with those who do. Nor do I support Obama and his “lead from behind” foreign policy, which has created an opening for predators like Russia, Iran and Islamic State — dangers that would only grow under a Trump presidency. Perhaps a third party will arise as a vehicle for the 37% of conservatives who said in a recent poll that they have an unfavorable opinion of Trump. I would support it, because a third-party candidate could take away votes from Trump and make clear that he is not an authentic voice of conservatism. But third parties have never succeeded in the long term in our political system. As it stands, I only know one thing for sure: I won't vote for Trump. My hope is that he will lose by a landslide, and the Republican Party will come to its senses, rejecting both his ugly, nativist populism and the extreme, holier-than-thou conservatism represented by Ted Cruz. There is no shortage of Republican leaders today — the most prominent is House Speaker Paul D. Ryan — who represent Reaganesque conservatism. (Ryan has pointedly refused to endorse Trump.) As far as I'm concerned, they are the real Republican Party, in exile. I only hope that they — and I — can return from the wilderness after November. Max Boot, a contributing writer to Opinion, is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 9 05:40:06 2016, in response to Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 9 05:28:17 2016. Ah, Max Boot. No conservatives work for Brookings or the NYT.The Uniparty certainly lives. Hillary Clinton is a centrist Democrat LOL no. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 9 05:42:22 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 9 05:40:06 2016. COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATIONS.Nice try. Read it, OK? |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon May 9 06:11:15 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Olog-hai on Mon May 9 05:40:06 2016. That is not exactly a lie. Among Democrats she is centrist, but if the Democratic Party as a whole is to the left of center then she is centrist among leftists |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 9 09:18:33 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by mtk52983 on Mon May 9 06:11:15 2016. Among Democrats she is centristAmong Democrats she has become a conservative. Not because her views have changed so much, but because those who used to be conservative Democrats aren't Democrats any more. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 10:10:36 2016, in response to Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 9 05:28:17 2016. Seriously, I get tired of predictions that one party or the other is "dead."I will say that I'm not sure if either political "establishment" will ever be quite the same. Rasmussen said, right after Romney lost four years ago, that Romney would be the last establishment candidate of the GOP. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 9 11:14:32 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 10:10:36 2016. Rasmussen said, right after Romney lost four years ago, that Romney would be the last establishment candidate of the GOP.But the non-establishment portion of the GOP alone isn't big enough to be a national party. They need to keep the Rubio, Bush, Cruz, and Kasich voters in the fold somehow. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 11:51:45 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Mon May 9 11:14:32 2016. Then what is "The Establishment" will likely shift.I can think of several examples in my lifetime that there were people predicting the end of one or other party. Just two were after Goldwater in '64 and McGovern in '72. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 11:55:00 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Mon May 9 11:14:32 2016. No they don't. They're free to fracture off and form another party. There's nothing in the Constitution that mandates two political parties. That's just how it worked out. Now, if that model isnt doing it for some, maybe its time for them to form their own thing. If people feel their agenda is legitimate, that it's inclusive of them and their personal belief about what government should do, they'll attract voters. If not, theyll join the pantheon of political footnotes, with the Whigs if you will. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:00:01 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 11:55:00 2016. Would you recommend that for Bernie's supporters? Suppose he actively tried to form a party? Would you support that? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 12:16:28 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 11:55:00 2016. There's nothing in the Constitution that mandates two political partiesThe framework of the Electoral College makes it inevitable. Because of it, once you can only have Presidents of one of two major parties, the whole political structure and machinery at the State and local level follows. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 12:21:05 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:00:01 2016. Yes. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:21:38 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 12:16:28 2016. The Constitution contemplates more than two political parties. If no one gets a majority of the electoral votes, the House of Representatives decides.And that has happened twice so far. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:22:27 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 12:21:05 2016. It would be interesting if we ended up with four political parties. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 12:28:27 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:22:27 2016. I don't see it happening. What I see more likely is one of the smaller parties gaining greater prominence. Like conservatives splintering from the republicans. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 12:32:53 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:21:38 2016. the House of Representatives decidesBy a majority. The best way to have a modicum of multi-party pluralism would be to: 1. Eliminate the EC and turn it to popular vote. If no one gets a majority, have a runoff three weeks later. 2. Do the same in congressional and gubernatorial elections. (The State of Georgia already does) This would allow someone to vote their true preference in the first round and then vote "the lesser of two evils" in a runoff if third parties denied a 50% to the first-place finisher. With the "wasted vote" scenario eliminated, you'd have many cases where a third party would finish at least second in many elections and then possibly win in a runoff. This method has served France well. You can also go with proportional representation but that would risk ungovernibility. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 12:46:09 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 12:16:28 2016. Not exactly. There were more political parties in the century that followed the Constitution's ratification. And it was a time the nation was fervently adding states. It evolved into the two parties around the turn of the 20th century. That's not working so well anymore, so maybe change is needed. It will happen of and by itself if that's how its going to go. Nobody should try to force this, especially by law. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:47:03 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 12:32:53 2016. Although I wouldn't eliminate the EC (just saying, I'm not interested in arguing that separately now), I have some sympathy for a two-candidate (or two-slate) only runoff election.But ... can you image the chaos of those three weeks? I think I would move to Canada and come back after the dust settles. Plus the additional expense would be enormous. As to proportional representation in a national government, I'm opposed -- as you say, ungovernable; and it's close cousin, coalition government, is even worse. |
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Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:57:49 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 12:46:09 2016. I agree, except it remains to be seen whether it's "not working so well anymore." What we're seeing now may be a self-healing shakeup of the system, painful though it may be in the near term.I also particularly agree that "[n]obody should try to force this, especially by law." That would cement the party system in a way that it shouldn't. Jefferson didn't want political parties; that was unrealistic, but I understand his point. A writer in The Nation fantasizes that the GOP should not simply lose the election but be utterly destroyed. I've long suspected (as did George Orwell) that in the hearts of some people who claim to love liberal values that they'd like to see a one-party system--theirs. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 13:01:29 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:47:03 2016. I wouldn't eliminate the EC either. And we have a coalition based entitiy, or rather, one was established and it evolved into partisanship. Speaker of the House was intended to be elected by the entire body, mandating coalitions be established between varying parties. That's been lost with a two party system, which has silenced the minority and hasn't really served anyone well in some time now. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 13:05:46 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:57:49 2016. Same can be said for many conservatives, who would oppress any concept of tolerance if they could. Go right back to the eighteenth century, or further if they could codify it. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 13:14:14 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 13:05:46 2016. If you can point me to any contemporary article in a national Conservative magazine (a rightist equivalent of The Nation) calling for and setting out a method for achieving a one-party system) I'd be interested to see it. |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 9 13:55:14 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:57:49 2016. I've long suspected (as did George Orwell) that in the hearts of some people who claim to love liberal values that they'd like to see a one-party system--theirs.We had a 1-party system in 1824 and the country muddled through. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 14:25:19 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Mon May 9 13:55:14 2016. There are two kinds of one party states. One in which alternate parties are banned outright and another where the alternate parties are just unpopular. There's no problem whatsoever with a one-party state where the one party wins free and fair elections against an unwanted but completely free opposition.The classical example is Mexico under PRI dominance in the 20th century. IMO, such a system is problematic because it breeds corruption. A truly informed electorate would eventually vote for the opposition, as actually happened in Mexico. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 14:49:43 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 13:14:14 2016. Let,s see the same from the RW about the "left". Because you,re statement is falt out wrong. |
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Posted by R2ChinaTown on Mon May 9 15:06:10 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 14:49:43 2016. Answer his question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 15:16:59 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 14:49:43 2016. I just gave you an example in The Nation. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 15:21:59 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Mon May 9 13:55:14 2016. Yeah, and we muddled through a Civil War. The Muddled States of America? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 9 16:33:55 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 15:21:59 2016. Yeah, and we muddled through a Civil War. The Muddled States of America?So what is your point? That the Federalist Party shouldn't have disbanded? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 17:01:06 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 13:01:29 2016. Why not? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 9 17:22:25 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 10:10:36 2016. And actually, it would appear that he was. I mean really ... Trump? :) |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 17:34:25 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 17:01:06 2016. When was the last Democratic sponsored bill put to vote in the House? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 17:40:44 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 17:34:25 2016. I meant why wouldn't you eliminate the EC? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 17:46:38 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 12:47:03 2016. But ... can you image the chaos of those three weeks?No chaos. It happens routinely in Louisiana, Georgia and other places and they don't even sweat it. We even have it in a lesser form for NYC primary elections (with a 40% threshold instead of 50%). |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 18:03:38 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 17:40:44 2016. Bcause it's the last chance against incompetence or someone with overt authoritarian ambitions ascending to high office. The electors can always vote their conscience. We may yet see a situation where they may need or want to. |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 18:16:49 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Mon May 9 16:33:55 2016. That you haven't demonstrated that one party rule is a good idea two centuries later. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 18:20:21 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 18:03:38 2016. This is doubtful. |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 18:44:05 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 18:16:49 2016. The US was essentially a one party country from 1933-1953.Like AlM and Spider-Pig said, it wasn't because the Dems were forcefully oppressing the opposition. It was because the electorate found the GOP of the time to be very unappealing. The voters even gave the GOP a congressional majority in 1946 before running them out two years later. There was also a long period of almost uninterrupted Republican rule from 1860 to about 1912. The Democrats would sometimes briefly win Congress or the WH, only to be run out in a matter of a of a few years. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 19:03:24 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 18:20:21 2016. I wouldn't say that. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 21:01:34 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 19:03:24 2016. I would. The electors are party loyalists who would always vote for their nominee. Maybe not for Trump. On the other hand, look what happened in 2000? |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 21:47:40 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 21:01:34 2016. I remember a lot of electors were wobbly about that, especially since the outcome was determined by SCOTUS, not the voters.It took months to get a recount done. So it can happen. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 21:52:41 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 21:47:40 2016. The outcome was determined by the existence of the EC. Gore won the popular vote. The will of the people was subverted. |
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Posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 23:22:02 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 21:52:41 2016. Yep. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 23:39:24 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by bingbong on Mon May 9 23:22:02 2016. So why do you favor the system that was invented to give the antebellum South more power? |
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Posted by bingbong on Tue May 10 01:05:31 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 9 23:39:24 2016. Because it could possibly be the last chance to prevent a dangerous demigogue from getting into the White House. |
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Posted by AlM on Tue May 10 02:04:12 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SLRT on Mon May 9 18:16:49 2016. I haven't tried to demonstrate that one-party rule is a good idea now. Nor was there one-party "rule" in 1824. I'm just pointing out that every now and then parties die. They are eventually replaced by something else. If perchance the Republican Party dies it will be replaced. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 10 02:17:38 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Tue May 10 02:04:12 2016. It already has been. :)
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Posted by AlM on Tue May 10 02:22:11 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 10 02:17:38 2016. Not yet.No one has any idea what the GOP will look like in 2024. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 10 02:26:45 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by AlM on Tue May 10 02:22:11 2016. Nah ... I've tuned out the pundits for the rest of this year. They've already proven that they've been smoking quack. On that front, obviously nothing much is going to change until the next census reassignments. But curious thing about this one - the demographics of which states had which seats up last time is different this year. If they put up Jesus, the republicans are going to lose some Senate seats and if the Trumpeters piss off more of their own, they could well lose their own red states if enough people just stay home."Too close to call" right now. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 10 09:40:17 2016, in response to Re: Op-Ed The Republican Party is dead, posted by SMAZ on Mon May 9 17:46:38 2016. Elections local to Louisiana and Georgia may not scale so well to the entire nation. |
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