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| When will churches lose tax-exempt status? (1298284) | |
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When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015 Gotta figure there will be a big push against the Church for not performing gay weddings. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jul 5 16:51:49 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. Since the role of churches in marriage in the U.S. is strictly ceremonial, there is absolutely no basis for denying a tax exemption for choosing to perform or not perform a marriage. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 5 17:02:00 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. maybe so but how can they make it stickand what about other religions like muslims |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Jul 5 17:07:48 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 5 17:02:00 2015. There is no cause for any religious group to lose tax exemption on this basis. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 5 17:10:56 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. A state would have to eliminate tax exemptions for all charities. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 5 17:17:10 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Sun Jul 5 17:07:48 2015. well yeah i agreeyou should not be forced to marry whom you do not want |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 17:18:03 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. I'm not sure that eliminating tax exempt status for religious institutions that refuse to perform state-mandated gay marriages will pass constitutional muster. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jul 5 17:22:24 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. They have a right not to hold gay marriages. Other churches DO allow gay weddings. This is also their right. now if they would be quiet about matters of civil law... |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jul 5 17:22:57 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 17:18:03 2015. It would not. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 22:21:38 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jul 5 17:22:57 2015. No worries, then. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by The Silence on Sun Jul 5 23:26:41 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. That would run head first into the establishment clause. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 00:08:46 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by The Silence on Sun Jul 5 23:26:41 2015. No, it wouldn't.Churches and all other voluntary non-profits should lose their tax exemptions. This includes tax deductions for charitable contributions. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Jul 6 00:14:37 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jul 5 17:18:03 2015. Why not? I'm pretty sure the government can revoke tax-exempt status from an organization that discriminates against black people. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Jul 6 00:15:52 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by The Silence on Sun Jul 5 23:26:41 2015. Hardly— if anything, granting tax exemption to churches violates the establishment clause because it grants special government benefits to religions simply for being religions. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 08:31:27 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 00:08:46 2015. It could be done. But it would have to be done in some kind of uniform manner that didn't discriminate against specific churches, which is what Luch is suggesting. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 08:40:34 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 08:31:27 2015. I agree. If my proposal were to be adopted, then it would be even-handed and would pass constitutional muster. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 09:33:35 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 08:40:34 2015. I agree with you in principle, but there are historical reasons why the RELIGIOUS property of churches are not taxed.* Non-profits, and especially charities, are a separate issue.My particular problem with tax exemption for churches is that they are supposed to steer clear of politics in their churches and official dealings. I know this a difficult test, but it is one thing to advocate for the poor, or criticize the effects of laws, and quite another to say "and vote for X, or throw out Y," and use the wrapper of the pulpit to make it appear a religious obligation. Even more egregious is allowing politicians to speak from the pulpit, FOR ANY REASON, which happens all the time. You don't need to preach "Vote for Smith" if you invite Smith to speak from the pulpit but not Jones. *If the money-making property of Trinity Church were tax-free, that church would be near the top of the 1%, if it isn't already. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:36:32 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. I don't know how I feel on this issue either way.On one hand, if they end it for churches, then then have to for all charities. But then again, the amount of money that is lost for property tax is a lot. Take for example, some of these churches that took over an old movie theater. You had a tax paying property that all of a sudden no longer has to pay taxes. And some of these "churches" are "for profit", no matter how they say they arent. But then you have to get into another can of worms for deciding which churches get it or don't. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:38:04 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Sun Jul 5 16:51:49 2015. That is correct, as they aren't the ones actually issuing a marriage license. The "real" marriage is the legal one issued by the municipality. The church just does the ceremony. You don't need a ceremony to be legally married. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:39:23 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Nilet on Mon Jul 6 00:14:37 2015. There's that "nasty" clause in the US Constitution that allows the "free practice of religion". |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:41:25 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by RockParkMan on Sun Jul 5 17:22:24 2015. Absolutely correct. The churches and "churches" should keep their mouths SHUT on what does not pertain to THEIR religion. It's all well and good if THEIR religion does not allow "gay marriage" within their religion. That is their constitutional right. But in the same token, they should not be spouting about what is none of their business, those which do not profess to their religion. To them, Shut the F up. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:42:30 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 5 17:02:00 2015. Who is breaking off Muslims? If a Catholic Church no longer can receive tax exemption, the same is true of a Muslim Mosque. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:43:33 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Jul 5 17:17:10 2015. That is correct. The government has no right to force a church to "marry gay people", just as the church should have no right to attempt to block gay marriage secularly outside of their own religion. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 11:54:33 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:38:04 2015. Exactly. Which was one of the big issues in the gay marriage case because there is a difference between civil "marriage" and religious "holy matrimony." First Amendment would forbid the requirement that a religious leader perform a religious task (presiding over a wedding ceremony so that it would be legal in the eyes of religious law), but that does not apply to the civil tasks of clerks/judges providing a civil marriage license. My brother and his husband a dinner in a semi-private room of a restaurant with immediate family and a family friend who is a Justice in the Supreme Court of the State of New York and over dinner they exchanged vows and signed what needed to be signed. They are just as married for civil purposes as my parents who were married by a Rabbi in a large ceremony. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 12:03:18 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:39:23 2015. The "free exercise" clause gets a little murky there because even the majority decision in Hobby Lobby cited with favor precedent that under the guise of the religious beliefs of the owners a Corporation could not get around anti-discrimination laws. If this went to Court there probably is enough of a legal question to avoid Summary Judgement, but the Court will likely make an inquiry into whether this is a legitimate religious group versus a fringe organization calling themselves a religion to avoid what they cannot do as private citizens even though they really are not a religion |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 12:05:26 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 12:03:18 2015. Yes, and that is true for many of these so called "religions". Anyone can just rent a store, throw up a sign that says "Praise Jesus Church", call himself a "bishop", and it's a "church". |
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Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds? |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Mon Jul 6 13:47:38 2015, in response to When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jul 5 16:45:01 2015. Lots of schools still ain't losing their funding for violating the separation of mosk and state.Maybe the next president we'll stop having a state sanctioned religion. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:07:08 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 11:54:33 2015. If you want to talk about problems of a "religious" marriage, try to find a rabbi who will officiate at a mixed wedding. And if you find that rabbi, you hope he knows a minister who will co-officiate to support the religious sensibility of your future spouse.Oddly you seem to now have a better chance of having a mixed wedding in a Catholic Church, if certain strict rules are met. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 14:10:27 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:07:08 2015. My Rabbi will not perform an interfaith marriage even if he is the only officiant. However he knows other Rabbis who will and will provide recommendations if asked |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 14:12:27 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:07:08 2015. Oddly you seem to now have a better chance of having a mixed wedding in a Catholic Church, if certain strict rules are met.Nothing new there. My mother, a Roman Catholic, and my father, a Lutheran, were married by a priest in a Catholic Church in 1939. My father just had to sign a paper saying he would allow the children to be brought up as Catholics. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:15:25 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 14:10:27 2015. Is your Rabbi Reform? Even many Reform Rabbis will not officiate.Which, of course, is their right. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Mon Jul 6 14:16:38 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:15:25 2015. Yes he is |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:26:30 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 6 14:12:27 2015. My father just had to sign a paper saying he would allow the children to be brought up as Catholics.You realize that is anathema to many non-Catholics. My recent understanding is that the Church will now allow the marriage if other rules are met, so long as the Catholic spouse promises to make a good faith effort to have the children brought up as Catholic. An interesting case I read about (but don't know the outcome of) involved a Catholic man who wanted to marry a divorced Jewish woman. The story asserted that the childless woman had had a "Jewish Annulment" (I assume they mean a "Get") and would that be OK in the eyes of the Church. Of course I don't know your parents but I would imagine the Church was more comfortable with your mother being the Catholic partner, since the woman traditionally has first say in religious upbringing. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jul 6 15:06:24 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 11:41:25 2015. Great post! |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 16:04:55 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 14:26:30 2015. I know many couples who were married in the Catholic Church, with one of the spouses non-Catholic, my parents included. All of them had the same requirement, that the children be brought up Catholic, just as Al stated. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 17:51:45 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Nilet on Mon Jul 6 00:15:52 2015. Church tax-exemption applies to both property and income tax.States have declared such property exempt since pre-Constitution times and the scheme of federal taxation has included similar exemptions despite the embodiment of the separation principle in the establishment clause of the first amendment. US churches' federal income tax exemption was formerly enactedby the Tariff Act in 1894, providing tax exemptions to "corporations, companies, or associations organized and conducted solely for charitable, religious, or educational purposes." Although the Tariff Act was declared unconstitutional in 1896, the church tax exemption was reinstated by the Revenue Act of 1913. While the federal government is prohibited from furnishing direct financial support to religious organizations, it has not been precluded from aiding these organizations indirectly through the granting of benefits under the tax laws. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the tax exemption of churches in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, 397 U.S. 664 (1970). The majority decision held that the tax exempt status granted to all houses of worship is the same privilege given to other nonprofit organizations. |
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Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 18:23:35 2015, in response to Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds?, posted by orange blossom special on Mon Jul 6 13:47:38 2015. Mosk? |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 19:18:20 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 17:51:45 2015. You're messing up everybody's rants with facts. |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Jul 6 19:53:36 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 6 16:04:55 2015. Same here.Your pal, Fred |
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Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds? |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 20:57:25 2015, in response to Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds?, posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 18:23:35 2015. IIRC, it's a kind of aquatic rodent or also a duck that has mosk glands.Like a moskrat or moskovy duck. |
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Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 22:19:40 2015, in response to Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 20:57:25 2015. LOL!! |
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Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status? |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Jul 6 22:20:24 2015, in response to Re: When will churches lose tax-exempt status?, posted by SLRT on Mon Jul 6 19:18:20 2015. Apologies. |
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Re: When will masjids lose taxpayer funds? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jul 7 01:32:31 2015, in response to Re: When will mosks lose taxpayer funds?, posted by orange blossom special on Mon Jul 6 13:47:38 2015. Maybe. |
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