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| (1177081) | |
GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by dand124 on Wed Apr 23 17:12:47 2014 http://www.mychamplainvalley.com/story/d/story/gmo-labeling-bill-passes-vt-legislature/14041/rjPw7kF_7UqT_8LAA24zvA |
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| (1180496) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 16:45:09 2014, in response to GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by dand124 on Wed Apr 23 17:12:47 2014. I don't get why GMOs have to be labeled. Pretty much all food is genetically modified; most people can figure it out on their own. |
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| (1180869) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 12:30:05 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 16:45:09 2014. They're distinguishing between food which was bred to be the way it was, versus food whose genes were directly modified. Most, if not all of the time, it's not obvious just by looking at the items or the ingredients on the package. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 12:56:20 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Mon May 5 16:45:09 2014. I'm part of a food cult. I shop at Whole Foods. They have non-GMO's.Do you shop at Whole Foods? There are many food cults. Organic Gluten-free Paleo Vegetarian Whole Foods is coming out with a new labeling system too. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:01:07 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 12:30:05 2014. How do you know by looking at corn, or an apple, if it's GMO/organic or not? |
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| (1180884) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:15:57 2014, in response to GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by dand124 on Wed Apr 23 17:12:47 2014. This is good I guess.A Whole Foods, they use different skids for deliveries of organic and conventional foods. They also keep conventional in one section and organic in another. This is to avoid cross-contamination. I pretty much only eat organic fruits and veggies. Unfortunately I can't get my body fat percentage down to where I want it. Still want to lose another 10 pounds. What are you goals for the summer? |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 13:16:29 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:01:07 2014. You generally can't tell for sure, that's the point. |
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| (1180890) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:29:40 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 13:16:29 2014. I think I can tell the difference with certain items like avocados, apples, and some other produce.Organic does not look perfect. For example the apples are smaller. When they are not organic(conventional), they are bigger and a brighter red as designed to appeal to customers. Same with avocados. GMO avocados are huge. People naturally but one to get their money's worth. Here's something to keep in mind if you join the food cult known. 12 Most Contaminated Peaches Apples Sweet Bell Peppers Celery Nectarines Strawberries Cherries Pears Grapes (Imported) Spinach Lettuce Potatoes 12 Least Contaminated Onions Avocado Sweet Corn (Frozen) Pineapples Mango Asparagus Sweet Peas (Frozen) Kiwi Fruit Bananas Cabbage Broccoli Papaya |
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| (1180996) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 16:12:35 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:29:40 2014. It's true that organic fruits and veggies have a rougher appearance, but unfortunately it does not necessarily mean it's truly "organic". It's probably more correct to say that it's likely "more organic". One important difference I noted personally was that organic peaches and nectarines I got last year tasted way better than their typical supermarket counterparts. I loved them so much I made them a staple until the local grower finally ran out.As for GMO stuff, (un)fortunately, the scientists made sure the GMO produce looked the same as "regular" supermarket produce, so just looking at it most likely will not be enough. As for contaminated foods: I've seen the lists, but unfortunately for me, most of the fruits in the least contaminated list I either don't like, are inconvenient to eat, or I simply don't care enough to make a regular dietary staple (like sweet corn and asparagus). OTOH, I like (and eat frequently) most of the stuff on the most contaminated list. :-S |
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| (1181018) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 16:59:32 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 12:30:05 2014. Except that's a meaningless distinction. The end result is the same; the only difference is how efficiently it was reached. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:05:21 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:01:07 2014. Easy. If the corn or apples are being sold for consumption by humans, then you know they're organic because corn and apples, like all life on Earth, are carbon-based. You also know that they're genetically modified because wild maize and apples are decidedly less palatable and thus generally not offered for sale. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 17:10:10 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 13:15:57 2014. No, it's not good. GMO-labeling is stupid. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:22:52 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 16:59:32 2014. To the people who are concerned about it, it's not. GMO food had genes inserted into them from other, completely different organisms to create things like pest and herbicide resistances. It's not the same as cross-breeding with another variety to obtain a characteristic. People are worried that the changes might have harmful side effects to consumers, such as increased allergic reactions. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:26:55 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:05:21 2014. I think you know that we're referring to "organic" in reference to organic foods and organic farming.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:28:52 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:22:52 2014. Genes are genes. It doesn't matter how they got there. In theory, selective breeding can produce any traits that genetic engineering can— just much more slowly and at much greater cost.That people are worried about the changes is irrelevant— people are worried about ghosts, zombies, the wrath of God, the hypothetical side effects of vaccinations, fluoridated drinking water, curses, hexes, cell phone radiation, bad vibrations, and a wide range of other nonsense. Luckily, things like the potential harmful side effects of a particular food can be studied scientifically. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:31:03 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:26:55 2014. Yes, I do know. I was being snarky.Organic farming alone can't produce enough food for the Earth's entire population and the supposed benefits of it are dubious at best. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:58:03 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:28:52 2014. Genes are genes. It doesn't matter how they got there.Considering that genes can affect an organism in all kinds of different ways, waving it off is not a good idea, especially when it comes to food allergies. In theory, selective breeding can produce the trait, but in practice, they're inserting genes which are otherwise foreign to the organism. With cross-breeding, at least you can get some forewarning that the trait in one of the potential parents might be undesirable; e.g., a strain of corn is resistant to bugs but it tastes bad and makes a good percentage of the people break out in a rash, early indication that cross-breeding is a bad idea. With GMO, people are perceiving it as less gradual, more hit-or-miss, even though the geneticists say they know what they're doing and the FDA clears the organisms for consumption. It's a combination of fear of the unknown and lack of trust in the government to protect us from that unknown. For me, I don't see the harm in labeling products that are GMO or made with GMO, though I think people are going way overboard with lumping cloning with GMO. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 18:06:29 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 17:58:03 2014. With cross-breeding, at least you can get some forewarning that the trait in one of the potential parents might be undesirable; e.g., a strain of corn is resistant to bugs but it tastes bad and makes a good percentage of the people break out in a rash, early indication that cross-breeding is a bad idea.Science. Decidedly useful in verifying (or disproving) claims about cause and effect. With GMO, people are perceiving it as less gradual, more hit-or-miss... Which is funny because it's actually more efficient and precise. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:09:43 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:31:03 2014. I agree that organic farming cannot keep up with the human population's demand for food, but I see no reason not to allow market forces to determine how much of the farmers' resources are devoted to organic farming, as long as what's considered "organic" is tightly regulated and the definition of "organic" isn't watered down. Unfortunately, there's a lot of pressure for the latter to happen.supposed benefits of it are dubious at best. Aside from supposedly higher nutrient content in organic foods, there is the issue of pesticide residue. Not a small deal there. |
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| (1181063) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:52:00 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 18:06:29 2014. Which is funny because it's actually more efficient and precise.But because you may be dealing with a gene transfer between completely different organisms, the results are not always what is predicted. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:07:12 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:52:00 2014. FALSE! It is actually easier to predict than traditional breeding methods. |
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| (1181080) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:15:58 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:07:12 2014. While gene modification is more likely to ensure that the change is made where you want it, the actual results and side effects are not that easy to predict. Traditional breeding is hit-or-miss as to whether the trait gets inherited, but it's less likely to have major side effects. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:18:03 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:15:58 2014. That's why these things are subject to experimentation before they hit the stores. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:20:38 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:18:03 2014. Experimentation and regulation, which is why I'm not fond of the "small government" people who want to do away with that regulation. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:21:28 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:20:38 2014. This is the kind of thing where "self-regulation" works. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:26:00 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:09:43 2014. You ate arguing with the biggest troll here. We all know what "organic" means in terms of market ing vegetables. So does the troll nilet....but will troll anyway. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:28:25 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:26:00 2014. So does the troll nilet....but will troll anyway.That's true, but at least he admits it. :-P |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:30:00 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:21:28 2014. How does self-regulation work here? I'm seeing the opposite. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:30:48 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 19:21:28 2014. More precisely, I'm seeing self-regulation to be unusually risky. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:33:22 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:28:25 2014. So long as he doesn't believe anyone takes him seriously. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 19:56:18 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 18:09:43 2014. I'm highly skeptical of claims of higher nutrient content given how much misinformation commonly circulates about nutrition. Pesticide residue can be handled without reliance on organic farming.I'm all for your right to practice organic farming, but let's not pretend it's the answer to everything nor ignore the first world privilege inherent therein. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:30:23 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:33:22 2014. I'm well aware that the morons, racists, and voluntarily impaired of all flavours don't take me seriously and I don't particularly care. I've never concerned myself with the opinion of the lower animals anyway. |
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| (1181108) | |
Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:32:42 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue May 6 19:26:00 2014. Ah, a common problem amongst your type. You're what psychologists would call a "concrete thinker." You have trouble understanding non-literal language, and so my earlier comments about organic foods simply sailed over your head. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:38:44 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 6 19:30:00 2014. It's simple. Companies are allowed to decide what safeguards to implement without the government telling them what to do. The companies inevitably cut corners to save a few bucks and ship dangerous defective products which result in many people being injured or killed. This provokes a class action suit which, though hardly devastating, costs the company a settlement larger than the amount saved by cutting corners in the first place, and so the same nutters who believe in "self-regulation" immediately start screaming "TORT REFORM!" So they pass tort reform that makes it all but impossible to sue companies for defective products and the injuries they cause, which gives them greater incentive to cut corners, which results in more defective products and more injuries and death, but this is not a problem because human life isn't actually worth anything anyway. Even the 1% aren't worth anything as humans; their value is limited to the funds they control, but it doesn't matter because they can afford to get their products from companies that are subject to real regulations. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 22:09:13 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 17:10:10 2014. No. It's not stupid. If enough people want to know if they're eating a GMO they have a right to know. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 22:13:36 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 17:31:03 2014. Organic farming alone can't produce enough food for the Earth's entire population and the supposed benefits of it are dubious at best.We're a food cult. I'm part of it. People say the same about factory farming. That we can't produce enough meet using humane methods. I know you're neither Republican nor conservative, so where do you stand on the issues of organic growing and factory farming of animals? |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 22:24:24 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 22:13:36 2014. Organic farming: Do it if you want to. Don't expect to be handed tax money to do it. Being a ponce about it is rude (but being rude is not illegal).Factory farming (of animals): Disgusting. Inhumane. Dubiously necessary. Antibiotic use needs to be banned immediately, before an epidemic caused by drug-resistant bacteria. What measures are required to ensure humane treatment and how they are to be implemented will require debate, which can take place after we ban the (mis)use of antibiotics. Definitely don't expect to be handed tax money to do it. Though "enough" meat is a decidedly more nebulous concept than enough food. Strictly speaking, meat is never actually necessary. It represents a decidedly inefficient use of resources in most cases. And while animal abuse bothers me just as much as anyone, hearing concerns about the inhumane treatment of livestock from someone who wants to kill said livestock because their flesh is tastier than plants does have the faintest whiff of hypocrisy to it. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 23:52:59 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:38:44 2014. YAWN!Self-regulation would work if it weren't for idiots who believe the clamor for so-called "tort reform." Not in nearly as many cases as some advocates for "self-regulation" claim, but still. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 23:54:39 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Tue May 6 22:09:13 2014. Where do you draw the line at "right to know?" There's nothing inherently wrong about GMOs, but scare tactics have caused ignorant people to be mistrustful of them. Anti-GMO people are almost like anti-vaxxers, only not as horrible. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 00:00:25 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 23:52:59 2014. If we want self-regulation to work, we would (at minimum) need tort reform to make it easier for plaintiffs— and on top of that, we'd probably need strict limitations on subsidiaries and the asset shell games played therewith, greater ability to impose punitive damages on negligent companies, and (much) greater ability to hold owners and/or shareholders personally responsible for the corporation's debts if it can't pay out adequate compensation to the injured, plus a much greater willingness on behalf of governments to pursue criminal charges— killing someone through negligence is a crime even if you do it from behind a desk or through a corporation. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 00:01:31 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 23:54:39 2014. Anti-GMO people are almost like anti-vaxxers, only not as horrible.That's a remarkably accurate description. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 00:12:12 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 22:24:24 2014. Great post. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 00:13:53 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 6 23:54:39 2014. GMO's may compromise antioxidants in foods.Body may not digest them properly. I'm just saying there's nothing wrong labeling GMO's. I'm sure you were happy when you used labels for The Spider-Pig diet. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 7 00:21:56 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 00:00:25 2014. I agree with all that. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 7 00:22:56 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 00:13:53 2014. The only label I used was for the kilocalorie count and to a lesser extent the fat/carb count. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 00:26:39 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed May 7 00:22:56 2014. Macros.Awesome. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 7 07:21:22 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Tue May 6 21:30:23 2014. So which people who don't share your views DO take you seriously? |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 07:54:56 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 7 07:21:22 2014. So which people who don't share your views DO take you seriously?Are you including people who disagree with me on anything, or only people who disagree with me on the topics that have been extensively debated on OTChat? If the former, then Selkirk, Bingbong, Fred G, Edward, and almost certainly Streetcarman are all fairly obvious candidates, as is Chuchubob, I suspect, not to mention all the people who I know in real life or on other fora. If I'm forced to limit the list to people on OTChat who I have directly argued against, then the list is obviously going to be short; most of the people I've tried to "debate" with are so far gone that only partially horrified amusement and SIWOTI Syndrome kept me going— since the positions I advocated ranged from well-supported to plainly self-evident, the people I argued against were pretty much guaranteed to be morons by necessity, and it's already been established that (a) morons often don't take me seriously and (b) I don't care because they're morons. In fact, if I had to make a list of the people I argued with who are generally capable of reason, it would be fairly short— Edwards probably makes the list, and LuchAAA is tough to say since his schtick is remarkably hard to penetrate. So even if I could say with absolute confidence that they both take me seriously, the list would probably be too short to satisfy you. Maybe there are some rational people I'm forgetting? I've been up all night and the fine detail memory is always the first to go. |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 12:47:42 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 07:54:56 2014. In fact, if I had to make a list of the people I argued with who are generally capable of reason, it would be fairly short— Edwards probably makes the list, and LuchAAA is tough to say since his schtick is remarkably hard to penetrate. So even if I could say with absolute confidence that they both take me seriously, the list would probably be too short to satisfy you.No CHIM/M on a list? I argued with you once, about a homeless shelter. Other than that, I don't know how you can lump me in with Edwards!? |
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Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 7 13:06:07 2014, in response to Re: GMO Labeling Bill Passes VT Legislature, posted by LuchAAA on Wed May 7 12:47:42 2014. CHIM/M doesn't strike me as generally capable of reason.I remember arguing with you about the Confederate flag, but not homeless shelters. Unless you mean the thread where a homeless shelter in Queens was being opposed by a group of hypothetical liberals of dubious epistemological status. My opinions about you are at best provisional until I can wade through the past 20-odd years worth of in-jokes, references, and so forth and figure out the significance of body fat percentage as it pertains to Internet Woar™ and so forth. My having first joined SubChat in '05 or '06 (and never having been on SubTalk) makes the particularly ingrained memes a bit harder to break into. |
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