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MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007 What the hell is that?!!! |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by exgreenbusdriver on Sun Mar 11 10:16:21 2007, in response to MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007. manhattan bronx surface transit operating authority >http://www.osc.state.ny.us/audits/allaudits/093095/94s44.htm |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007, in response to MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007. That's the Manhattan And Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority...It was the 1962 version of MTA Bus Company, except that it took over only one company (Fifth Avenue Coach). By design, it was kept separate from the existing NYCTA and outside the civil service system, for one or both of the following reasons: - as an allowance for eventually selling MABSTOA to a private-sector buyer (as if that were ever going to happen); - as a way to protect the jobs of Fifth Avenue Coach's illegal Irish immigrant employees who, by definition, would be ineligible for civil service jobs. Even into the 1980's, the NYCTA ("TA") and MABSTOA ("OA") fleets and personnel had to be kept separate at all times and at all costs. No TA bus could ever be moved to an OA depot, or vice versa, without unions filing massive grievances. Then suddenly somebody decided to scrap that rule and move not only buses but some staff as well. Now you'll find TA general superintendents in charge of OA bus garages, OA analysts in the Department of Subways, and so forth. Basically, MABSTOA still exists on paper, but only as a bookkeeping entry. |
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Posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 10:59:44 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007. Oh.So is it still under MTA Bus? Or is it now part of the MTA New York City Transit |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sun Mar 11 11:11:09 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 10:59:44 2007. It was never under MTA Bus. MTA Bus didn't exist until 2005. |
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Posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 11:53:47 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007. Some additional historical information should be added to this post:The MTA Bus takeover of the NYC private bus companies was long-planned and phased in over a fourteen month period. MABSTOA is similar only in that it also the public takeover of two (not one) previously-private bus companies. But that's where the similarity ends. The MABSTOA takeover occurred very quickly over a three week period after a strike against the private operators. While Fifth Avenue Coach was the corporate owner of the entire operation folded into MABSTOA, it was actually two companies: * Fifth Ave. Coach itself comprised the vast majority of today's Manhattan bus routes, all except today's M15, M22, M31, and M50 (which were NYCTA routes), and today's M100, M101, M104, and M42 (see below). *A Fifth Ave. Coach subsidiary, Surface Transit, was the successor the Third Ave. Railway's streetcar lines in The Bronx and Manhattan. It was taken over by Fifth Ave. Coach in 1956 but was kept operationally separate - different buses, garages, union agreements, etc (although both sets of workers were TWU Local 100). Surface Transit encompassed all Bronx-based bus routes (except today's Q44 and QBX1) and a few Manattan lines - today's M100, M101, M104, and M42. Surface Transit also operated a number of lines in Southern Westchester County (part of today's Bee Line) called Westchester Street Transportation Company that did not become part of the MABSTOA takeover. *New owners took control of the Fifth Avenue/Surface Transit operation in early 1962 and announced plans to cut jobs, night and weekend service, and raise fares. Both NY City and the TWU expressed outrage but the new owners persisted anyway and on March 1, 1962 dismissed a group of about thirty older workers (disabled former bus drivers who worked as street fare collectors at busy Manhattan stops. The TWU promptly went on strike and shut down the entire Fifth Ave./Surface operation, effectively leaving Manhattan and The Bronx without bus service. NY City and State governments promptly passed legislation allowing NY City to acquire Fifth Ave/Surface properties by condemnation in order to restore service, and set up MABSTOA as a separate subsidiary to NYCTA in order to operate the buses. Amazingly the buses were back on the streets on March 24, and Fifth Ave. Coach/Surface never again operated buses entirely within New York City. |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 11:59:52 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 11:53:47 2007. It should also be noted that as the strike developed, many buses were taken to Westchester Street Transportation and ran many more years on the routes of southern Westchester.In 1963 the city received the first of its GM TDH 5303 model buses in a modernization effort. As NYCTA received new GM , and later Flxible new looks, several series of old look buses were shifted to MABSTOA. joe c |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 11 12:02:58 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 11:53:47 2007. There were several other Manhattan routes that 5th Ave. and Surface Transit did not operate -- those owned by the Ave. B & East Broadway Transit company. |
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Posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 15:29:22 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 11:59:52 2007. Correct - most of the TA's GMC TDH4510's (about 400 out of the 500 buses in this series) from the Brooklyn Division were shifted to MABSTOA where they ran until 1966. A small group of about 30 TDH5101's were also shifted from the Queens and Manhattan Divisions to MABSTOA routes where they also ended their careers around 1966. |
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Posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 15:31:50 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by italianstallion on Sun Mar 11 12:02:58 2007. Correct - but only two rather insignificant routes - the M8 Grand St. Xtown, long since abandoned, and the M9 Ave. B/East Broadway route, still in operation.The Ave. B & E Broadway routes remained in private hands till March 1980, when the TA (not MABSTOA) took then over. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 16:47:56 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 11:59:52 2007. It should also be noted that as the strike developed, many buses were taken to Westchester Street Transportation and ran many more years on the routes of southern Westchester.Would these be those 1800 series 5301s that Westchester Street used to have??? |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 16:54:37 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 10:59:44 2007. Oh.So is it still under MTA Bus? Or is it now part of the MTA New York City Transit I think you misunderstood his comparison to MTA Bus. He was saying the the creation of MABSTOA in 1962 is an equivalent of today's creation of MTA Bus (in 2005). A major difference being that the creation of MABSTOA involved the takeover of just one bus company whereas the creation of MTA Bus involved the takeover of seven companies. |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 17:43:14 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 16:47:56 2007. No. Fishbowls were not involved. The 1800's came from a varying source including original buses WST bought.The buses shifted from the strike of 1962 were early post war GM's such as TDH 4506 and 4507's with some TDH 4509's. In 1969 WST bought second hand wide body GM TDH 5105's from Detroit and Columbus (Ohio). joe c |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 17:45:09 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by andy on Sun Mar 11 15:31:50 2007. Also Ave B had one East side Express route to Water St. Later it would be incorporated into Mabstoa. I believe the X23. |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 17:59:27 2007, in response to MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007. Attached is a photo circa 1969. Many buses that left the city for the easy life in Westchester maintained their 5th Ave Corporate slogan.Njoy joe c 
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Mar 11 18:26:54 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 17:43:14 2007. I recall seeing fishbowls with "Westchester Street Transportation" marked on the top of the B-100 in Brooklyn when it was run by the Pioneer Bus Corp back around 1972 or '73. Which fishbowls were those? |
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Posted by B53RICH on Sun Mar 11 18:37:48 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 16:54:37 2007. One bus company? Wasn't Surface Transit also involved in the takeover along with Fifth Avenue Coach? |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 21:11:00 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Mar 11 18:26:54 2007. Are you sure about the years? I can only guess that Pioneer needed buses. However WST actually sold off several buses in the mid to late 1970's AFTER they received the RTS's; the 'bowls were redundant. In fact Pioneer received a group of ex Pelham Pkwy Express Flxibles about that time, which was also owned by the WST management.I had though there was a co-ownership among WST and Pioneer. The late Alan Bromberger, a Pioneer and Command guru, could not confirm that. joe c |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 23:14:06 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007. Even into the 1980's, the NYCTA ("TA") and MABSTOA ("OA") fleets and personnel had to be kept separate at all times and at all costs. No TA bus could ever be moved to an OA depot, or vice versa, without unions filing massive grievances. Then suddenly somebody decided to scrap that rule and move not only buses but some staff as well. Now you'll find TA general superintendents in charge of OA bus garages, OA analysts in the Department of Subways, and so forth.Thanks for the explanation. During the 70s, I was a youngster living in the Bronx near West Farms Sq. Even before I knew what NYCTA and MABSTOA was I knew that the buses I saw on the Q44 were "different" from those we rode on KB, COL and WF routes. I definitely recall OA buses being shifted to other depots, but TA and OA buses never crossing the line. The first I saw of TA buses coming to OA was around '81 or so when some 1000 and 2000 series TA 5301s came to COL. Then of course a few years later the "barrier" seem to come down and TA buses went to OA depots and vice-versa. |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 23:24:50 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 23:14:06 2007. That is not entirely true. We just mentioned previously in these threads that in the 1960's NYCTA buses from Queens and Bklyn made it to MABSTOA (Bx and Manhattan) routes. So that scraps that theory.JRC |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 23:27:00 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 23:24:50 2007. Additionally, I must add, the TDH 5106 model (2600 and 3200 series) from Coliseum depot made it to Brooklyn around 1969 or 70, while the TA's own 5106's were being phased out. Go figure!jrc |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Sun Mar 11 23:58:11 2007, in response to MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007. Its where the Kings of Rock and Rolla come from! |
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Posted by oldman on Mon Mar 12 00:24:20 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 23:27:00 2007. Imagine if the MBS could get their act together, They would bring outa book on the old NYCTA,MABSTOA and all the other bus companies that ran in all the boroughs. IT WOULD BE A SELL OUT But they can't produce a magazine..... |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 01:42:10 2007, in response to MaBSTOA..., posted by error46146 on Sun Mar 11 09:50:50 2007. As the others said, it stands for Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority. There are now three divisions, in the DOB (Department of Buses) for the MTA.1. Transit Authority (TA), which depots are Yukon, Castleton, Casey Stengal, Queens Village, Fresh Pond, Jackie Gleason, Ulmer Park, Flatbush, Jamaica, East New York, and 126st. 2. MTA Bus Company (MTA Bus), which depots are Spring Creek, LaGuardia, Rockaway, Kennedy, College Point, Eastchester, Yonkers, and Baisley Park. 3. Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority (MaBSTOA), which depots are 100st, Michael J. Quill, Mother Clara Hale, Gun Hill, Manhattanville, Kingbridge (my old depot), and West Farms (where I am at now). There are differences b/w TA, and OA, other than what the others said. For example, a TA B/O who picks a depot in Queens, stays in the Queens depot for their B/O career. They can't pick another depot. So if you pick Casey Stengel, you stay, at Casey Stengel (unless that changed). If you pick a Brooklyn depot, you can move from depot to depot, but only within Brooklyn. Staten Island, no clue to them. 126st, you stay there for your B/O career (again unless that changed). MaBSTOA, you can move from depot to depot (MaBSTOA Depots only) during the General Pick, which is held once a year. That is how I left KB, and went to the Farms. If you are in a Bronx depot, you can pick a Manhattan depot, and vice-versa. The pensions are different b/w the two, but the rules are the same, now. OA had six months probation for new drivers, now it is a year, like TA. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Mon Mar 12 02:08:23 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 23:24:50 2007. That is not entirely true. We just mentioned previously in these threads that in the 1960's NYCTA buses from Queens and Bklyn made it to MABSTOA (Bx and Manhattan) routes. So that scraps that theory.Not a theory, but MY observation as far back as I can remember which is the early-mid 70s. When I mentioned those 5301s coming over I stated that it was the first that I recall seeing TA buses being transferred to OA, and not the first time it was ever done. Agreed, those old-looks being tranferred from TA to OA were mentioned, but I can't speak on something that happened before I was born, which is why I posted about what I can actually recall. Sorry that you saw my post as saying that TA buses never went to OA until the 80s, as that's not what I was saying. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Mon Mar 12 02:13:16 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 01:42:10 2007. I heard that in the Queens division you can move to another Queens division depot, but you'd lose seniority??? |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 02:24:21 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Mon Mar 12 02:13:16 2007. Then it did change. Still sucks anyway. Got 10 years, want to be closer to home, now back at square 1, with suck work/hours. |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by andy on Mon Mar 12 06:57:13 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 01:42:10 2007. MTA Bus Co. is not part of NYCTA Dept. of Buses - it is a separate organization.The reason for the different practices in each borough is due to historically different union agreements that the TA inherited from the old private operators years ago. The Brooklyn depots and 126th St. are NYCTA/TWU; MABSTOA depots are TWU. Queens and Staten Island NYCTA depots are both ATU but two separate locals. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Mar 12 07:48:04 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 01:42:10 2007. Which of the three pays the best? |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Mon Mar 12 09:19:56 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by r17-6599 on Sun Mar 11 21:11:00 2007. >>Are you sure about the years?<<I'm pretty sure, since I was attending junior high (middle) school at the time. Maybe it was closer to 1974. I graduated from there in June of '74, and I don't recall ever standing on that corner again! :-) |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 13:45:14 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Mar 12 07:48:04 2007. TA, and OA. The pay for us two is the same. |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 13:53:46 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by andy on Mon Mar 12 06:57:13 2007. I know it is a seperate organization. But they have used names from the TA, and MaBSTOA lists, to put new drivers into MTA Bus, so doing this makes them (even though not technically) part of the DOB. So technically they are not. From employees point of view, they are now the third part of the DOB. They did come up with a seperate examination, now. But after the takeover, they needed drivers badly, so they asked candidates on the TA, and OA lists if they would be interested in MTA Bus. If they were, there was a seperate application they had to fill out. So now one, had two options. Who ever called first, you could go to, or wait for the one you really want to work for. |
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Posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 14:06:57 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Future Motorman on Mon Mar 12 13:53:46 2007. One more thing, the DOB trainers, taught the new MTA Bus trainers (the former private line trainers), their routes, for training new drivers. While I was being trained, there was one on another bus learning our routes. They have to do things the DOB way, not MTA Bus way (which there never was). That is one reason why they needed drivers badly, when the takeover happened. Alot of drivers who should of been retired from the private lines, left to not face what we face everyday. The constant cover your ass. |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Mon Mar 12 15:51:30 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by oldman on Mon Mar 12 00:24:20 2007. Yea, I agree 100%. They are hawking the Spring convention but where the Hell is the magazine? They collected dues sure enough though.jrc |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by r17-6599 on Mon Mar 12 15:53:03 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Mon Mar 12 02:08:23 2007. NOW we are on the same page.jrc |
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Posted by IRT Rules on Mon Mar 12 18:07:47 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by WayneJay on Sun Mar 11 23:14:06 2007. Whwn the Grummans went down COL got alot of TA 5301's buses |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Mar 13 11:13:29 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by B53RICH on Sun Mar 11 18:37:48 2007. That would be the one company referred to. |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by RiverLine3501 on Tue Mar 13 14:36:00 2007, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007. Even into the 1980's, the NYCTA ("TA") and MABSTOA ("OA") fleets and personnel had to be kept separate at all times and at all costs. No TA bus could ever be moved to an OA depot, or vice versa, without unions filing massive grievances. Then suddenly somebody decided to scrap that rule and move not only buses but some staff as well.Then of course, if this policy was still in effect, we wouldn't have the Q32 [15] as it operates today since it is technically a joint operation between the TA [Casey Stengel/Flushing], and OA [Hudson Pier?/MJ Quill]. |
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Re: MaBSTOA... |
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Posted by Allen45 on Wed May 31 14:52:27 2023, in response to Re: MaBSTOA..., posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sun Mar 11 10:20:15 2007. There was a legislative change in 1981 that amended MaBSTOA's authority from a temporary period to allow for MaBSTOA to be disposed of to "until otherwise terminated by law" making MaBSTOA permanent. I guess this might have something to do with why changes began happening in the 1980s. |
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