Re: Signal priority in NYC

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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Fri Jun 4 23:26:45 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jun 4 22:33:46 2021.* Even if they are 24/7, is it fair to give someone a ticket for driving in a bus lane when there are no buses operating? And would that really deter reckless driving?
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Fri Jun 4 23:30:35 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 4 15:37:04 2021.* So far I haven’t seen any published benefits, yet most of the candidates for mayor say they will expand it like it is another panacea like bus lanes. And my original question remains. Who gets priority if both streets have buses and how does it effect other traffic by screwing up light synchronization?
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sat Jun 5 07:46:52 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 4 22:59:51 2021.* Yes, technically you have to stop in the intersection. The pedestrian at a crosswalk is never required to accommodate cars except for when facing a don't-walk sign. The pedestrian may recognize the situation and be nice and let you get through, but there's no obligation. I sympathize though. When I'm a motorist in that situation, it's frustrating because you're usually looking both ways over multiple lanes for traffic to clear and then also have to worry about possible pedestrians all the way on the other side. They should just have traffic lights at these places since there are usually lights at adjacent intersections and they can just be lined up. I'm thinking of an intersection such as 258th St and Hillside Ave (check it on Google Maps) when there is high volume on Hillside and you just want to stay straight on 258 St. Experience gets me to avoid scenarios like that one by rerouting once I've dealt with it once. But even so, the difficult design of the intersection doesn't mean I can feel free to cast some new obligation onto the pedestrians.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sat Jun 5 08:01:13 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 4 13:45:18 2021.* I've always thought the "yield to pedestrians" vertical sign in the middle of the road would be enough in many cases (no need to put down lines). It could be a "semi-marked" crosswalk. There are cases where there are lines and even a roadside sign noting that it's a crosswalk and it just gets treated like any old unmarked crosswalk with cars going first in practice. The sign in the middle of the road would be more effective than the lines and roadside sign combined Problem of course is that such signs take up road space and reduce road flexibility (in case of breakdowns and such).
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Sat Jun 5 08:34:07 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 5 07:46:52 2021.* Thanks for responding. The community has been asking for a signal for years. I have been opposed to it because there only is traffic for about two or three hours a day. The rest of the time I would have to wait one extra minute most every time I left my house. If the signal changed every 20 seconds it wouldn’t be so bad, but knowing DOT my signal would be one full minute red and the other one at 30 seconds red.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Jun 5 11:58:09 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 5 08:34:07 2021.* They could install a signal, if it works only for those 2-3 hours a day and the rest of the day flashes yellow/red, but you know they won’t do that, so fuck it.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sat Jun 5 12:01:11 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 5 08:01:13 2021.* That’s because we tolerate people not understanding the quite simple rules of the road. Also, cars don’t go first an unmarked crosswalk. It’s just like a marked one.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Sat Jun 5 16:24:05 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jun 5 11:58:09 2021.* IAWTP
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by AlM* on Sat Jun 5 19:29:01 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 4 22:59:51 2021.* Since they see I am already going through the intersection, shouldn’t they wait for me to get through the other side before they start walking? Generally no. Usually in such a circumstance you could have seen perfectly well that they were going to be well into the street before you got to them, and you should have waited for them.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by AlM* on Sat Jun 5 19:30:40 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 4 13:25:25 2021.* Sometimes drivers are so glad when opposing cars finally stop coming so they can make a left turn, they forget think about pedestrians that need to cross the street. Yes, sometimes drivers are incredibly reckless.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by TransitChuckG* on Sat Jun 5 19:35:47 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 1 17:01:50 2021.* Thanks for posting that video!
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Sat Jun 5 21:21:07 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 5 08:34:07 2021.* It would be nice if those were programmed to operate as standard traffic lights from say, 6am - 9am and 3pm - 7pm, and as stop signs (flashing red) all other times (Of if one street is significantly busier, a flashing yellow for that and flashing red for the other street). For example, at Watchogue Road & Willow Road East/West, during rush hour it used to be very difficult to maneuver that intersection, but other times, it was fine, so they added a full traffic light.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Sun Jun 6 06:59:54 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jun 5 08:34:07 2021.* I have been opposed to it because there only is traffic for about two or three hours a day. According to the FHWA's MUTCD, justification for a traffic signal may be warranted based on vehicle volumes for 1, 4, or 8 hour periods.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sun Jun 6 07:24:31 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jun 5 12:01:11 2021.* Yes, that's what I meant - cars wrongly go first (especially in NYC) at unmarked crosswalks and then even when crosswalks are marked (but there's no Stop sign or signal) cars continue to wrongly go first.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sun Jun 6 07:28:51 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 5 19:29:01 2021.* If you are crossing many lanes within the intersection and the pedestrian has a quick walking pace, I can see BrooklynBus's scenario developing. My only input is that even when such an unfortunate scenario develops, it's never the pedestrian's fault (presuming the pedestrian isn't deliberately trying to cause an accident).
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Sun Jun 6 07:50:38 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jun 5 21:21:07 2021.* It's the 21st century and all of this programming is totally possible! In NYC for whatever reason it can't. I mentioned 258th and Hillside which is under a mile from the border with Nassau County. On the other side of the border you have lots more dynamic programming for traffic signals, for example. . . Flashing yellows at night. . . Live sensing of left-turning vehicles to determine whether to extend or cut short the green turn arrow. . . Live sensing of vehicles on a side street that can determine whether the main road traffic needs to be stopped (if the side street vehicle is able to do a legal right-on-red and keep moving, no need to stop the main road's traffic). . . . . .and probably some other things I'm not thinking of. But because 258th/Hillside is on the Queens side it can't see such programming. I can't think of an example but I think there are places where there'd be a blinking yellow/red and if the signal "notices" that the car on the side-street with the blinking red is struggling to make its move for a certain amount of time, the signal will convert on the spot to a normal signal and give the side-street car a quick green.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Sun Jun 6 08:14:15 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 4 23:30:35 2021.* So far I haven’t seen any published benefits How hard have you been looking? July 2017 Report
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Sun Jun 6 08:53:49 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jun 6 08:14:15 2021.* Typical crappy NYC study that raises more questions than it answers, just like the SBS studies that only looked at the first year of service, and results weren't even published when they weren't favorable like the B46 route. Well, first of all the report is four years old. What's been happening since 2017? It's been greatly expanded since then? Have the results been the same? Second, obviously no panacea as it's been presented and suppirted by most candidates for mayor. Buses are slowest on streets that are most congested and apparently that's not where it works best. Improvements range between one and 25 percent. 0bviously, not cost effective when it's around one percent. So will they expand it haphazardly or where they know it works best? Also, a study needs to be fair by looking at the effects for all. While some bus service may have been improved, there is no mention at all as to its effects on other traffic. If at one location it made bus service 1 percent faster, but other traffic say 10 percent slower, that obviously would not have meant success. But NYC never produces a report where they can't claim a "huge" success. I still remember the traffic study showing success for the Broadway Mall. The study area was purposely defined as from 9 Ave to the East River so as not to show increased traffic on 10 Ave, 11 Ave, and the West Side Highway. Commoner sense shows the study area should have been from 3rd to 9th or river to river, but East River to 9th made no sense unles you wanted to skew the results.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Henry R32 #3730* on Sun Jun 6 11:44:55 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 3 22:54:05 2021.* Just saw this... carbon 0 is possible for aviation, as there is a way to capture carbon from the atmosphere and turning it into aviation fuel. So remove carbon -> burn it. You are correct in that with nuclear, carbon 0 is possible for energy. Anti-nuclear is the anti-vaxx of energy science.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by AlM* on Sun Jun 6 15:39:21 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Jun 6 07:28:51 2021.* If you are crossing many lanes within the intersection Then there really ought to be a median divider. Driving across a 6-lane street where you have a stop sign and the cross traffic just barrels through in both directions without any median is a high risk situation even in the absence of pedestrians.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by AlM* on Sun Jun 6 15:46:10 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jun 3 22:54:05 2021.* * What about hydrogen instead of diesel fuel? Diesel fuel has an energy density of 38.6 MJ/L whereas liquid H2 has an energy density of 8.5 MJ/L. OK, that sounds impossibly low. However, it has a specific energy of 45.6 MJ/kg, while liquid H2 has a specific energy of 120 MJ/kg. So H2 fuel needs almost 5 times the volume but only a bit more than a third of the weight. It strikes me that you could build a fuselage that can carry all that volume efficiently.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Sun Jun 6 19:02:42 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Jun 6 07:50:38 2021.* It has nothing to do with bicycles, nor can they get federal BRT money for it, so DOT won’t do it.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Jun 7 01:29:32 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 1 19:04:44 2021.* The speed reductions are getting ridiculous.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Jun 7 01:31:37 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 2 10:57:12 2021.* I assume you were banned for being wrong. Just like you’ve been wrong here for many many years.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Jun 7 07:13:02 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 2 10:57:12 2021.* Ben Fried (who is now with Riders Alliance, Ben Fried is with Transit Center.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by New Flyer #857* on Mon Jun 7 07:48:13 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jun 6 19:02:42 2021.* IAWTP.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 08:59:06 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 7 07:13:02 2021.* Sorry, meant Transit Center. But as I said there is very little difference between the three.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 08:59:53 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jun 7 01:31:37 2021.* No. I posted SBS facts which they accused me of falsifying because they weren't favorable.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Jun 7 09:37:14 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jun 7 08:59:06 2021.* meant Transit Center. But as I said there is very little difference between the three. There's quite a bit of difference between them.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Jun 7 09:41:46 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jun 6 08:53:49 2021.* Typical crappy NYC study that raises more questions than it answers, Why don't you explain this study's shortcomings... just like the SBS studies..I still remember the traffic study showing success for the Broadway Mall... ..Instead of changing the subject to other studies.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 12:48:34 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 7 09:41:46 2021.* My entire second paragraph discussed the study’s shortcomings. They are peddling this as a panacea and talked about expansion for ten years about how great it’s goinfg to be. Now they admit it doesn’t work well in congested areas, which is where everyone was expecting it to have the greatest benefits. And as I said, the study is four years old before much of the expansion. Why hasn’t there been a more recent study? Could it be because instead of an average 14 percent improvement, current data shows loss of an improvement, so they just choose not to release further data, just like SBS? Which is why those comments were relevant. You even admitted yourself that you believe the benefits have been exaggerated.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 12:49:45 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 7 09:37:14 2021.* They all support more bikes, want more bus lanes and hate cars. So where do they disagree?
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 12:50:31 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jun 7 01:29:32 2021.* At least we can agree on that.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 12:52:02 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jun 6 06:59:54 2021.* Apparently NYCDOT also believes it’s not warranted.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Mon Jun 7 13:14:33 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jun 7 12:49:45 2021.* They all support more bikes, want more bus lanes and hate cars. So where do they disagree? Transportation Alternatives and the Riders Alliance are NYC based, the Transit Center is national and international in scope. Transportation Alternatives supports active transportation, like biking and walking. Transportation Alternatives and Riders Alliance are advocacy organizations. The Transportation Center is a think tank for promoting public transportation solutions. The rest of the time I would have to wait one extra minute most every time I left my house. All three discourage the use of personal automobile transportation. Perhaps, that's why they are in your crosshairs.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Mon Jun 7 18:53:59 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jun 7 13:14:33 2021.* As I stated, they are all the same. No policy differences. The fact that Transit Center is National and international does not affect policy. To say there is quite a big difference between the three of them as you previously stated is inaccurate and misleading.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Mon Jun 7 19:54:44 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jun 7 08:59:53 2021.* LOL, how could they accuse you of falsifying facts? Facts have sources. You can’t falsify something that has a verifiable source. Maybe your “facts” were not in fact facts.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Tue Jun 8 09:46:39 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jun 7 19:54:44 2021.* They certainly were facts. They came from DOT. They just didnt fit the scenario they wanted. After the bus lane was but in DOT' numbers showed massive increases in travel times for cars between Metropolitan Avenue and Dry Harbor Road. If you did the math, it showed a 38 percent increase in bv travel time northbound during the rush hour. When I pointed that out at a meeting, DOT removed the slide, and replaced the data with computer estimates. Then they reposted the presentation on the internet and back dated it. Luckily. I had a screenshot of the replaced pages and even provided them to the local Queens newspapers. Streetsblog didnt want to believe that NYCDOT was capable of such deception.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Tue Jun 8 10:44:02 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 8 09:46:39 2021.* I sometimes call them Streetscult.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Tue Jun 8 11:46:09 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 5 19:30:40 2021.* And so are bikes. A cyclist was killed this morning in Williamsburg. They showed the video and there was a cyclist who just swerved and was right in the middle I'd the street at about 12:30'in the morning as if he just owned the entire street. Unfortunately a car comes down the street and hits him. It was hard to tell from the video if he was speeding or not. But regardless, when you are driving down the street in the middle if the night, the last thing you expect is a bike to swerve right in front of you. There was absolutely no reason for him to do so It's hard enough to see bikes during the day. It is much harder in the middle if the night. So should all drivers have to suffer with lower speed limits and bike lanes on every street because of some stupid people without any common sense?
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Tue Jun 8 13:49:42 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 8 11:46:09 2021.* A cyclist was killed this morning in Williamsburg. They showed the video and there was a cyclist who just swerved and was right in the middle Link?
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Tue Jun 8 14:01:04 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 8 13:49:42 2021.* Believe it was on News12 Brooklyn
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Tue Jun 8 14:16:09 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 8 14:01:04 2021.* Please supply the url.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Tue Jun 8 15:13:01 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 8 14:16:09 2021.* I saw it on TV. I remember Wallabout Street. I tried searching for cyclist death on their website, and the top story that came up was about George Floyd, totally irrelevant. Maybe it takes a day for them to update their website. But as I said, we need better education. Too many cyclists, drivers, and pedestrians don't know the first thing about safety. Better education would go a long way in reducing fatalities. The answer isn't always slower speeds and more bike lanes, specially when many cyclists refuse to even use the bicycle lanes. I had a discussion a few weeks ago on a chat with a delivery cyclist who said he never uses bike lanes because they are too slow for him. The best way for him to get places is by hanging on to a truck or a bus. This is the mentality out there. I told him he was playing with fire. So you can study the statistics all you want and keep showing that slower speeds mean fewer deaths and ignore everything else and the need for people to get where they are going in a reasonable amount of time.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Jun 9 08:28:16 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 8 15:13:01 2021.* A cyclist was killed this morning in Williamsburg. They showed the video and there was a cyclist who just swerved...Link?...Believe it was on News12 Brooklyn...I saw it on TV...Maybe it takes a day for them to update their website. News 12 Brooklyn's website still has no record of any cyclist fatality (or injury). None of the other websites have any record of such an incident. This is unusual because a cyclist fatality usually rates a mention. Are you sure this wasn't an apocryphal incident you are using to illustrate your point? But as I said, we need better education. I'm not one to overestimate the value of education. I would suggest that what's taught bear some semblance to reality. I had a discussion a few weeks ago on a chat with a delivery cyclist who said he never uses bike lanes because they are too slow for him. The best way for him to get places is by hanging on to a truck or a bus. This is the mentality out there. That's 1 opinion out of 50,000 delivery cyclists in NYC. you can study the statistics You are not, if you believe you can draw a meaningful conclusion from a single sample out of 50,000.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Wed Jun 9 10:24:34 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 9 08:28:16 2021.* I definitely saw it when I said I did. Maybe I was wrong about it being on News 12, but I don’t think so. Perhaps, the video was removed because it was so obvious the cyclist was wrong, and it was thought it would hurt the bike movement. It wouldn’t be the first time that a media outlet uses its agenda to determine what they show as news and what they choose not to show. And you jump right to the conclusion that the Icyclist I chatted with was an anomaly and the only one out of 50,000 that behaves that way. Even if there are only several hundred more like him, it would still be a problem. A thousand would be a bigger problem. We all know that about 90 percent of cyclists go through red lights, but you just ASSUME they are all law abiding and behave in a satisfactory manner because you can’t find statistics to show otherwise. And how many would even admit to hanging on to trucks and buses and not using the bike lanes because they are too slow? Not many. At least he was honest. I am not overestimating education either, but when you have a society where children are not brought up learning about the importance of safety, authority figures are not respected, and everyone feels they are invincible from watching Hollywood movies, people will not behave in a safe manner. Until that changes, it won’t matter how many protected bike lanes you put out there and how much you lower the speed limit.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by checkmatechamp13* on Wed Jun 9 17:52:19 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jun 7 18:53:59 2021.* Transit Center usually doesn't post up anything too crazy. Riders' Alliance just kind of hangs on the sidelines (they talk big game, but don't get much done), and Transportation Alternatives, I agree with your assessment.
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Re: Signal priority in NYC
Posted by BrooklynBus* on Thu Jun 10 08:22:05 2021, in response to Re: Signal priority in NYC, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Jun 9 17:52:19 2021.* I give Transit Center credit for being the first one to ask for bus network redesigns. I can think of any other good thing 5hey have done. Riders Alliance sets plenty of press. When there is a transit story, they reach out to Riders Alliance for Comments. And of course TA is the most influenial.
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