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| (341437) | |
Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021 Can anyone explain what the story is with this old Q60 transfer?42e0b8b7cc39bd8db1d54294d2fe543f--new-york-city-transfer.jpg What's with the Rockaway transfer point? The Q60 doesn't go anywhere near Rockaway, nor has it ever, to my knowledge. Was this some bizarre misprint, or is there a history that sheds light on this? |
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| (341438) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 21:13:45 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021. I believe it means you could transfer at Queens/Woodhaven Blvds to the Rockaway buses. |
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| (341439) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 21:37:49 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 21:13:45 2021. There’s no Q22 up there though. |
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| (341440) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 21:38:03 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021. What year is that from? |
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| (341441) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 22:06:53 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 21:38:03 2021. That may have allowed a secondary transfer since the 22s ran lengthwise in Rockaway.... |
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| (341442) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 23:12:11 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 22:06:53 2021. That would be three rides for the price of one? |
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| (341443) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 23:53:34 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 23:12:11 2021. Things were different in that era. Didn't they also collect a supplemental fare going into Rockaway back then. I'm not sure of the whole story, very vague memories... |
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| (341444) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 23:53:34 2021. The double fare to Rockaway applied only to the subway and according to one of the locals I spoke to out there the double fare was instituted at the request of the Rockaway Chamber of Commerce to keep “undesirables” out. |
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| (341446) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 11 04:37:52 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. Now THAT is an interesting piece of information. I don't think it's been mentioned in any books about the subway. Probably should be reposted on the SubChat board. |
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| (341447) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Jan 11 07:33:37 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 10 22:06:53 2021. It's very strange that it reads ". . .In Far Rockaway" creating the impression that you need to somehow already be in Far Rockaway to then go ahead and use the transfer. Nothing to indicate how you got there though! |
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| (341448) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Jan 11 07:38:03 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 10 23:12:11 2021. Perhaps that's the idea but what would the itinerary be based on the text of the transfer? Q60 to Q41 to Q21A? Even if that was the plan, it's far from self-evident based on what's written on the transfer. I think there's something we're all not getting so far. |
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| (341449) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 07:43:43 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Jan 11 07:33:37 2021. I think you had to do the second transfer to get to Far Rockaway, since you would be coming in at the other end. Not sure though, We need a former GBL person or a good bus route historian to way in. |
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| (341450) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 07:46:39 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. I was thinking the bus might have had a nickel over the bridge, like the old Bronx deal, but the subway had the exit turnstiles for a double fare. |
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| (341451) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 11 07:58:41 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021. Maybe it was designed to replace the ride you used to be able to take with the LIRR Rockaway Beach Line. |
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| (341452) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 11 08:00:48 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. I thought it was because the LIRR cost more than one fare. At least that was the official story, But what you stated sounds very reasonable. |
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| (341453) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 11 08:01:02 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. I thought it was because the LIRR cost more than one fare. At least that was the official story, But what you stated sounds very reasonable. |
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| (341454) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 11 08:01:02 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. I thought it was because the LIRR cost more than one fare. At least that was the official story, But what you stated sounds very reasonable. |
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| (341455) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 08:08:34 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 11 07:58:41 2021. That's why they invented the Q53, and the obscure route from Brooklyn Manor "station" to the city, discontinued in 2010.I don't get this one. |
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| (341456) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 08:11:17 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021. My guess is Green's attempt to poach riders off the Triboro Q53, or off the LIRR from Jamaica to Far Rockaway ? |
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| (341457) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 08:19:02 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. In elementary school in the late 1960's, my NYCTA $1 or $2 monthly pass (good on bus or subway) said words to the affect "Not Good on Rockaway Peninsula Services". Since no TA bus went there, they must have been referring to the subway. I don't know what school kids down that way used. |
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| (341458) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 10:25:33 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 08:19:02 2021. Triboro was already owned by the same group as Green before the Q53 was introduced. |
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| (341459) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 10:36:53 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021. Maybe they just use the same transfer stock on the Q-60 as on the Q-21. Although the Q-21 never connected to the Q-22A to my knowledge. |
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| (341460) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 11:14:39 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. They say the same thing about the parking rules for summer. |
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| (341461) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Snilcher on Mon Jan 11 11:23:57 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 10:36:53 2021. The only Queens bus route other than the Q21A, Q22 and Q22A at Far Rockaway would have been the Q113. Perhaps there was some planned linkage between the Q60 and the Q113 to make a super-cross-Queens route? Or maybe this was a Q113 transfer misprinted as a Q60 transfer? Admittedly the Q113 was not a Green bus.I don't know what year this transfer was issued or printed, but in my recall, at least during the 1960s, there were no transfers issued for the Q60 at all. Which makes this even stranger. |
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| (341462) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 11:36:50 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Mon Jan 11 11:23:57 2021. But it also references "Rockaway Beach", another term for Rockaway Park. Rockaway Beach is technically in "Far Rockaway" as they all have the postal address "Far Rockaway, New York 1169x." Note the use of the language "Rockaway Beach in Far Rockaway" implying the former being a proper subset of the latter. By that logic though, everything in the rest of Queens was in Long Island City, Flushing, and Jamaica, and the transfer ticket provides no evidence one way or another if that's what is meant.The Q113 was run by Jamaica Buses, not GBL. In addition to the Q-22A being only in Far Rockaway proper and not "Rockaway Beach," the transfer doesn't reference the Q-35. Maybe the Q-35 was the other route this transfer was meant for? |
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| (341463) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 11:47:06 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 11:36:50 2021. Again, for much of the time (after 1949) JBL was controlled by Green ownership. |
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| (341464) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 12:00:01 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 10:25:33 2021. Who ran the bus until 2010 between Brooklyn Manor and Manhattan ? |
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| (341465) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by andy on Mon Jan 11 12:16:53 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 12:00:01 2021. Green Bus, then MTA bus after the takeover in 2006. |
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| (341466) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 12:21:10 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 12:00:01 2021. Not sure, there were a bunch of express runs that were Pioneer which tanked and was reformed under "Command" with guess who owning it...I believe that's now the Spring Creek MTABC Depot. but I don't know the histories well enough to verify without a route number. |
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| (341467) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 12:22:18 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by andy on Mon Jan 11 12:16:53 2021. Thanks, wasn't sure, might have guessed "Command" but GBL fits. |
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| (341468) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 12:33:07 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 11:47:06 2021. So? Did they have inter-company transfers? |
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| (341469) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 12:33:37 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 12:22:18 2021. Definitely wasn’t Command. |
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| (341470) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 13:44:42 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 12:33:07 2021. I don't know. The Depots wee divided union wise Command and GBL ATU with Triboro & Jamaica TWU a situation that still exists today under MTABC. Despite common ownership their finances were independent as were the agreements with the city. My area was Queens Transit/Queens Surface pre MTA-BC and I remember at some point NYC-PBL transfer but I don't remember if that started with paper on the bus at some point, or started with MetroCard. For a while, there was a separate "Private Bus Line Metrocard" which eventually went away. |
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| (341471) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 13:47:59 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 13:44:42 2021. I remember there were NYCT-PBL transfers beginning in the early-mid 90s, but I don't know if there were inter-PBL transfers before then.The transfers definitely began before MetroCard. The "Private Bus Line MetroCard" was called a "MetroCard TravelCard" and was express bus only. They didn't work at all on local buses. |
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| (341472) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 14:00:42 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 11:36:50 2021. What do you mean Rockaway Beach is another term for Rockaway Park? |
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| (341473) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 14:23:51 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 13:47:59 2021. I have one left from my days taking the Jewel Ave Express Bus (now QM4/44). |
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| (341474) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 14:27:40 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by andy on Mon Jan 11 12:16:53 2021. We lived there in the 1960's a few blocks away and had no clue it existed. |
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| (341475) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 14:29:43 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 13:44:42 2021. If finances were separate, did they have non-compete requirements ? |
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| (341476) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jan 11 14:55:02 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 14:00:42 2021. The stations on that side all have "Beach"names, like Beach-90th. |
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| (341477) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jan 11 14:57:48 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jan 11 14:55:02 2021. Actually both sides , Rockaway Park, and Far Rockaway, have Beach names, my bad. :( |
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| (341478) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 14:59:55 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 14:29:43 2021. I have no idea, but with the same owners I'm not sure it would have any meaning.... |
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| (341479) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 15:01:01 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 14:00:42 2021. There was a Village of Rockaway Beach before 1898. It included Rockaway Park. |
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| (341481) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Snilcher on Mon Jan 11 18:36:10 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 11:36:50 2021. If it had been intended for the Q35, it wouldn't have mentioned either the Q21A or the Q22A, but it would have mentioned the Q21. The common location for the three routes mentioned was Far Rockaway (as in the location of the terminus of the A train).And I presume "Rockaway Beach" refers to the physical beach that extends more or less along the entire southerly coast of the Rockaway Peninsula, from Riis Park eastward. Unfortunately, none of the Ramones are still alive to be asked about that. |
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Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 19:41:21 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 11 14:29:43 2021. I suspect that the separation of finances was for tax purposes. |
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| (341483) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 23:20:59 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 15:01:01 2021. That was over 120 years ago and certainly not relevant in paper Green Bus transfers. |
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Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 23:21:40 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jan 11 14:57:48 2021. It’s cool. I’ve lived on Beach 12x Street my whole life. |
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| (341485) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 23:24:10 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 11 14:59:55 2021. Triboro loaned GBL plenty of buses. |
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| (341486) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 11 23:32:37 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Mon Jan 11 18:36:10 2021. If I had to travel from Queens Blvd to Flatbush I’d take the subway. That kind of combination of transfers sound too wild unless you out to busfan.I agree with the Ramones thing. In the spirit of their song it can mean anywhere from Beach 169th street back east to Reynolds Channel. But common sense of Rockaway would have to imagine them arriving near the Cross Bay Bridge in the neighborhood called Rockaway Beach. |
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| (341487) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Jan 11 23:45:17 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 11 11:36:50 2021. The transfer privilege shown could only be exercised at Beach 21st Street and Mott Avenue, for that is the only place where one can board all three bus routes (Q21A, Q22, and Q22A). Perhaps there was an idea at one time that never came to fruition, and by accident a planning document was taken up as the actual transfer design to be printed. The resulting error may never have been caught. That this is simply an error is further evidenced by the lack of any transfers in the reverse direction (i.e., from routes Q21A, Q22, or Q22A to route Q60). |
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| (341488) | |
Re: Transfer mystery |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Jan 11 23:45:19 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 11 00:36:23 2021. Actually, the "double fare" also applied on bus routes. All of the bus routes in the Rockaways had fare zones. The zone boundaries were located at 165th Avenue (Nolan's Avenue) & Cross Bay Boulevard, Brooklyn approach to Marine Parkway bridge, Beach 84th Street & Beach Channel Drive, and Beach 85th Street or Beach 95th Street & Rockaway Bach Boulevard (zone overlap). Additionally, there were no free transfers between routes Q11 and Q21, nor between routes Q21, Q22, and Q35. Initially, a full fare was required for each zone traveled, but in later years a full fare was required only for the first zone and a lower amount for each additional zone. Nonetheless, bus fares could be more expensive than subway fares because of both zone charges and lack of free transfers. |
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