Home ∑ Maps ∑ About

Home > BusChat

[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]

[1 2 3]

< Previous Page  

Page 3 of 3

 

(341542)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 00:30:44 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 13 13:06:10 2021.

Definitely interesting, both legally and operationally. Is this NYC specifically or legality in general as city councils whereas the technicals may vary depending on jurisdiction? I remember in college there was a topic how legally you canít operate a bus line if it conflicts with a transit authority in any way, unlike Brooklynís Dollar vans :). But, that kind of squeezes the operation to non-existent where now you have Uber-like services picking up the ďslackĒ or personalization of where transit is limited or not serviced.

Post a New Response

(341543)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 14 01:01:16 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 00:30:44 2021.

Historically in New York state the legislature could grant a franchise. Over the years state law would require gaining the consent, first of property owners along a route, later of the municipality in which the route would operate. The consent of a municipality is granted by the legislature of that municipality. It is complicated because there were changes in the law depending on the type of municipality, the size of the municipality (and in the case of Nassau County, the right of the municipalities to grant franchises was taken away and given to the county). Other states may vary.

Restrictions on competing with transit authorities are relatively new. Historically, transit was operated by private companies, and there were no transit authorities. In some cities there were restraints against multiple companies operating along the same street, as there was in New York for a short period of time in the early 1900s. In the era of publicly-owned transit authorities there have sometimes been restraints placed on private companies in order to protect the revenue of the government. In modern times, all of this has become academic since operating public transit is usually a money-losing proposition.

Post a New Response

(341546)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 04:34:00 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 14 01:01:16 2021.

Thank you for your explanation, I have never heard franchise and transit in the same topic until here. I definitely need to learn more about law!

I do think itís a force fed proposition, there very well could be a balance to help both parties in all actuality. However, in the times weíre in now and the sports commentating of law over the years, thereís so many loopholes, restrictions, misinterpretations, even little accountability it makes private business definitely a long hard thought. Granted the ďrecklessĒ and greed ways of back then we did improve a great deal, especially with safety measures.

In terms of transit, I do think financially itís better to have publicly owned authorities for like major projects. Though I do feel thereís far less opportunities for innovation because itís such on a bigger scale (in the United States at least). For example, outside of NYC, where Bus Rapid Transit has been popping up in the past decade letís say, many agencies have used that advantage full circle. While locking in funding from the feds, allowed the affected municipalities to construct and/or greatly improve pedestrian and road infrastructure. Then in turn creates a more livable community and hopefully long term economic boost. In NYC, thatís a whole different ball game.

On the other hand because itís a public entity, you got RFPís and adopted standards that drive decisions which gets even more diluted due to annual budgets. As with private companies, they had more leeway for creativity , but less and no guaranteed source of revenue and support. Add the backhand ways of operations the company tanks either way.

If there was a regulated balance, which allowed private companies to work with government. I still see a success, it takes the direct burden from the feds, allows the company to specialize their craft but then has financial support when government is really needed and I donít mean bailouts. Iím saying if a company had a major project or wanted to implement a new technology the funds would be there and the feds would still get their financial cut. However, if a company tanked in an ill manner it would be treated as any other business outside of transit.


Post a New Response

(341547)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 07:16:39 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 00:14:18 2021.

Granted bus operators had different habits/behaviors when taking transfers. Some took a good look for things like the route the transfer came from, the date and time of expiration that was cut, and whatever else may look out of place, and periodically they would confront the passenger over one or more of those details. But others, perhaps especially if running late, would just put out their hand to take the transfer and wouldn't seem to bother looking at it. I remember hearing at one point that counterfeiting was common.

Post a New Response

(341549)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 14 08:36:01 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 00:14:18 2021.

In MSBA days with paper transfer, at Green Acres, one HAD to transfer among N1,N2,N3 at the bus stop near Gimbels on the west end, not the anchor store at the east end, or back a ways at Korvettes/Kleins.

Post a New Response

(341550)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 09:18:20 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 07:16:39 2021.

Wow thatís nuts haha - counterfeiting. I know when I used transfers the driver just took it never looked at it.

Post a New Response

(341551)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 09:27:21 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 14 08:36:01 2021.

I wonder who made that rule. I remember when bus service was adjusted to serve a major supermarket and the owner of the store did not want specifically buses traveling in front of his store, saying it wasnít safe for his customers (those that drove even though each door entrance had a specific stop sign to yield to pedestrians entering/exiting ) and so buses had to enter the rear of the store, do a quick tight circle and serve passengers on the side of the store. This made buses run late especially during peak hours and ridership to the store plummeted, a couple of years later the deviation was cut. A lot of unhappy customers!

Post a New Response

(341552)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Jan 14 10:04:26 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 13 11:45:36 2021.

The 1949 Hagstrom map has a B.1 street.

Post a New Response

(341553)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 14 10:19:11 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 09:27:21 2021.

I once asked MSBA Customer service about that. They said they have to restrict the transfer's designated location to one specific place or else their fare policy could be abused.

They were more liberal in Lynbrook, where one could transfer from the N4 to N25 or N32 at either Merrick Road or at Lynbrook station.

Post a New Response

(341554)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 10:42:19 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 09:18:20 2021.

Thinking back, and trying to imagine the driver's perspective, there were also probably some physical characteristics that would make a transfer look out of place; for instance, the paper was longer depending on how much later in the day it was good for (so if one passenger's transfer was shorter than most of the ones you were getting, then even before looking at it you could sense a problem).

Periodically as a passenger I remember getting a whole-length transfer (good through 6a.m. the next morning) randomly, even if it wasn't nighttime yet. Since you couldn't count on getting one of those in advance though, it didn't have much practical impact.

There were no tiers between midnight and 6a.m. so if you traveled late enough at night, your transfer could be good until the morning. Perhaps one of the very few disadvantages of losing paper transfers.

Post a New Response

(341555)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 10:45:48 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 14 10:19:11 2021.

When one thinks of how today you can do certain round trips on one fare (e.g. subway one direction, bus the other), it's interesting that at one point they complained that you stepped a tenth of a mile off course to use your transfer.

Post a New Response

(341556)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 11:43:16 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 10:42:19 2021.

Oh wow, they definitely had an intricate system back then. Never seen varying lengths.

Post a New Response

(341557)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by pragmatist on Thu Jan 14 11:53:22 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 14 10:42:19 2021.

I remember the "book" being in the holder with the tear bar, and the driver set the book so when he tore one off, the appropriate time of use was supposed to be displayed, later times would not show, they would be above the tear. Had to adjust the book from time to time. Also "color of the day" to make it easier.

Post a New Response

(341558)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 14 12:17:11 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 04:34:00 2021.

The subway in New York City was funded and always owned by the City. It was operated by the IRT and BRT (later BMT). Eventually, the City, yielding to political pressure to maintain the nickel fare, starved the two rapid transit operators of sufficient operating revenue, and acquired their operations (around the same time the City also acquired North Shore Bus Co. in eastern Queens, Comprehensive and East Side Omnibus in Manhattan, and Isle Transportation in Staten Island). In more recent years a related strategy was used by City, with it funding and owning buses, while private companies operated them. So there has been a history of public0-private partnerships. But PPPs raise the question of who is really in charge of the big ideas. In other words, should PPPs be government assistance to private company ideas on what services to provide and how to innovate? Or do the private companies merely operate service mindlessly that the government devises? Should services be established to achieve a private goal of being financially sustainable, or a public goal of achieving some social good? PPPs sound good, but they can mask hard decision-making.

Post a New Response

(341559)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by JAzumah on Thu Jan 14 12:19:25 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 14 12:17:11 2021.

I would never touch a PPP that I don't control.

See: Purple Line

Post a New Response

(341560)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 12:57:31 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 14 12:17:11 2021.

Those questions are spot on for what I was getting at! At the same time, many in transit donít actually use transit. Which in a book I recently talked about here, that the driver is your advertiser and most knowledgeable of the operation. I know a community who erected brand new sidewalks after 40 years. The actual mindset of the powers that be was that people in cars donít see the side streets so were only going to revitalize the main through streets. Now, when you go through neighborhoods it looks very abstract navigating through. Much quality of new constructions are not long lasting as in other eras, so a brand new curb cut crumbled because of rain and snow in recent years, compared to the older sidewalks. Going off topic slightly, but, to answer those questions may be difficult to solve in a public regime and any mutual agreements.

Post a New Response

(341561)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 16:57:26 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 11:43:16 2021.

Septa had transfer cutters that were cut for 2 hours after the last stop. I wish I had saved one to show you. So a driver if he had the time , would check your transfer for time.

Here is a San Francisco Muni transfer , cut for time.

Post a New Response

(341562)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 17:06:22 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 16:57:26 2021.

Septa Transfer, cut poorly!



Post a New Response

(341563)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 17:14:56 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by pragmatist on Thu Jan 14 11:53:22 2021.

That is 100% correct ,except Septa never changed colors for the days..They had 2 types, blue for city, green for suburban routes.

This is from a cashier's booth on the Broad St. Subway-Septa.


Post a New Response

(341564)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 17:19:24 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 12:57:31 2021.

Hong Kong

Found this today too. Thought it was an interesting concept.

Post a New Response

(341565)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 17:21:32 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 17:14:56 2021.

Ah nice, are the letters like various zones in the area. I was supposed to go to Philly for the first time last year and wasnít able to.

Post a New Response

(341566)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 18:49:21 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 17:21:32 2021.

When you get a chance, when Covid is over, check out Phiily's. multi- faceted system. They have buses, 3 Trackless routes in the Northeast, Subway-Surface trolley lines, and Two subway/els. The Victory suburban division has in addition to many bus routes, the Media-Sharon Hill Lines with double ended LRVs, and the Norristown High speed Line with it's own type car.

Post a New Response

(341567)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 23:05:06 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 18:49:21 2021.

Thank you for the tips sir!

Post a New Response

(341572)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 01:10:36 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 14 23:05:06 2021.

I forgot about Regional Rail, Silver-liner IV & Vs.........

Post a New Response

(341576)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 15 07:37:13 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jan 14 18:49:21 2021.

The Media (101) Line is definitely worth a trip all the way out and back, especially its middle stretches (just after breaking off from the 102), and in the town of Media itself where the one track just goes straight down the middle of the main street.

Post a New Response

(341577)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 08:31:28 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 15 07:37:13 2021.

I agree.

Post a New Response

(341579)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 09:13:44 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 15 07:37:13 2021.

It's a lot of fun in Media, watching the autos dodge the trolleys!

Post a New Response

(341581)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 09:54:11 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 09:13:44 2021.



Media, Pa. Parking on both sides of the street, it's a challenge when the trolley come through.

Post a New Response

(341589)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Fri Jan 15 11:36:59 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 09:54:11 2021.

Nice photo.

Post a New Response

(341594)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 13:48:07 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 15 09:54:11 2021.

It's a challenge when the trolley comes through. The street is not real wide.


Post a New Response

(341617)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jan 16 04:15:24 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 13 13:06:10 2021.

There's no good reason to require franchises at all just to operate on the streets, companies should be able to operate as they please. But franchises or some such agreement should be required to have bus stops set up on the curbs and sidewalks, since that requires infrastructure (or at least parking rule) changes.

Post a New Response

(341623)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusRider on Sat Jan 16 12:17:49 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jan 16 04:15:24 2021.

I agree with you.

Post a New Response

(341642)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by BusMgr on Sun Jan 17 01:19:26 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jan 16 04:15:24 2021.

The underlying question is whether a city should be permitted to determine who may use the streets. Under the common law, there has always been a right to use streets in a person's individual capacity. But that common law right does not extend to using the streets for profit, i.e., for-hire use. A "franchise" is the sovereign's grant of a right not available to the public at large. So a person could use a franchise granted for a right to for-hire use of streets. A person might also be permitted for-hire use of streets through a license, or the city or state might consent to for-hire use without any further permission. There's no "right" or "wrong" answer as to how cities might regulate for-hire use of their streets (other than, at least in some states, doing so consistently with state law). Some cities just want to regulate traffic, or obtain license or franchise fees, or in some cases to engage in corruption.

Post a New Response

(342106)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Allen45 on Mon Mar 29 07:55:41 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by BusMgr on Tue Jan 12 23:33:41 2021.

Wasn't Command owned 40% by Green, 40% by Triboro, 20% by Jamaica?

Post a New Response

(342108)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 29 11:48:32 2021, in response to Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Sun Jan 10 20:49:38 2021.

There's tiny print that says " Good only to the following routes at Archer Ave. and Sutphin Blvd."

Then it says "Rockaway Beach in Far Rockaway" and names 3 Rockaway bus routes that pass Far Rockaway.

So surmise it means if you transferred to the LIRR at Archer Ave., and took a train to Far Rockaway, you'd get a free transfer to a Rockaway bus there.

Post a New Response

(342114)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by Snilcher on Tue Mar 30 11:47:46 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 29 11:48:32 2021.

Does that surmisal (surmission? surmittance?) suggest there was some kind of (free) transfer offered between Green Bus Lines and the LIRR? If not, then it would be equivalent to say that if you jumped on a bicycle at Archer/Sutphin and biked to Far Rockaway you could use the transfer when you got there.

Post a New Response

(342118)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Mar 30 14:56:23 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Snilcher on Tue Mar 30 11:47:46 2021.

While this continues to be unconfirmed theory on my part, my understanding is that there would have been no fare relationship between GBL and LIRR. The GBL transfer would be used only at one end or the other of the LIRR ride, with the LIRR ticket purchased separately.

Yes, that would mean that someone riding a bicycle from one end of the LIRR to the other could use the transfer, if they get there in time before the time the transfer expires, and if they have a plan on where to put their bicycle once they're finished using it. (Were buses regularly accepting bicycles at the time?)

I'm guessing it would also have been possible to wander over to Parsons Blvd, do some shopping or whatever along the way, hop the Q113, and still be able to use your transfer, depending on what the agreement was (if any) between GBL and JBL.

Post a New Response

(342120)

view threaded

Re: Transfer mystery

Posted by northshore on Tue Mar 30 14:57:45 2021, in response to Re: Transfer mystery, posted by Allen45 on Mon Mar 29 07:55:41 2021.

Green Bus Lines, Triboro Coach, Jamaica Buses, Command Bus and Varsity Transit were all owned buy the Cooper Family until MTA buyout. The Cooper Family now owns a real estate company tha leases its facilities to MTA Bus Company.

Post a New Response

[1 2 3]

< Previous Page  

Page 3 of 3

 

[ Return to the Message Index ]