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| Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings (337293) | |
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| (337434) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:46:36 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:23:22 2020. Now you are also assuming that all bus stops are equal.That's a wrong assumption. I calculated the distance to the closest bus stop for each of the 14,858 census blocks in Queens. I then weighted each distance by the population within that census block. what will be the closest distance to a bus stop after 50 or 70 percent of those stops are removed? The corresponding figures for the new stops are: 33.2% for within 0.1 miles; 81.3% for within 0.2 miles and 95.4% for within 0.3 miles. Keep in mind that the accepted industry standard and also the MTA's planning guideline which they are flagrantly ignoring is that you should walk no greater than one-quarter to a local bus I'm aware of that. It's interesting to note that the MTA's definition for SBS introduction used a figure of 0.5 miles for those who would benefit. |
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| (337435) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:47:50 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by JAzumah on Thu Jan 9 10:29:06 2020. I would suggest that the surplus bus stops be turned into bike or scooter sharing stations. |
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| (337436) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 10:53:14 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:07:43 2020. Ironically, they increased Q35 summer service with extra buses only between Brooklyn College and Jacob Riis. |
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| (337438) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:08:52 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:47:50 2020. CitiBike is too expensive. It needs to be subsidized like in London, where a day pass is only 2 GBP.Also, Citibike doesn't exist in more outlying neighborhoods. |
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| (337439) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:10:10 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:30:18 2020. How is it 50 percent of the distance between the old stop and the continued stop? Why isn't it the entire distance between the old stop and the continued stop?Because we are talking about the average distance. |
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| (337440) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:10:45 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:30:18 2020. How is it 50 percent of the distance between the old stop and the continued stop? Why isn't it the entire distance between the old stop and the continued stop?Because we are talking about the average distance. |
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| (337441) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:13:23 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:30:18 2020. Sorry for a third post, missed this part:And where does this "20 feet" apply? It's a random small number. If you lived 300 feet from an eliminated stop and 320 feet from a continuing stop, your increased walking distance is 20 feet. The point was that different people have different increased walking distance. It's not the full distance for everyone. |
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| (337442) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:23:23 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by JAzumah on Thu Jan 9 10:29:06 2020. Got you. |
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| (337443) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:29:33 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:46:36 2020. Yes, because SBS isn't considered local.Somehow I just can't believe that 95 percent will be within .3 miles. That sounds like some gross miscalculation. I doubt that us the case now with the number of transit deserts. If what you say is true, ther would be no talk of transit deserts. I think the calculation is more like 95 percent would be within 3 miles of a bus route and 25 percent would be within a quarter mile after the changes. I doubt it if more than 75 percent are currently within a quarter mile of the closest bus stop. And if you agree that all bus stops are not equal, why even such an emphasis on the closest bus stop? |
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| (337444) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 9 11:31:33 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:29:33 2020. Somehow I just can't believe that 95 percent will be within .3 miles. That sounds like some gross miscalculation.Stephen's calculations are always air distances. Walking distances are longer. |
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| (337445) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:33:10 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:46:36 2020. I can see an obvious flaw with that metric. |
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| (337446) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:33:11 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:13:23 2020. That is a ridiculous point because there are no stops that are 20 feet apart. If one bus stop is segregated into two routes, it is still one bus stop. No buses will now stop 20 feet from where they previously stopped. A bus is 40 or 60 feet long. |
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| (337447) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 11:33:25 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:39:44 2020. referenceAnother reference. |
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| (337448) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:35:42 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:33:11 2020. READ IT AGAIN! I never said any stops were 20 feet apart. SMDH. |
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| (337449) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:36:01 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:10:10 2020. I wasn't looking at it that way. I was considering two separate groups. Those affected and those unaffected. I said those who would be affected have to walk the entire extra distance from the old stop to the new stop unless there is a diagonal street that would make the walk shorter. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. |
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| (337450) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:40:01 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:36:01 2020. Except that still isn't true. People either live along the bus route, or join the bus route at a cross street between two stops. The extra distance is the difference between the old walking route and the new walking route. So the average distance for anyone affected is still less than the maximum increased distance. |
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| (337451) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:43:16 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 9 10:33:52 2020. There is nothing wrong with my logic and I corrected the mathematics which was insignificant. It is still only a three minute time savings for the average rider that is more than outweighed by the ensuing inconvenience. And don't forget you have to make these longer walks during all sorts of weather, downpours, frigid temperature, exhausting heat and sun, and through deep snow. That's at least 30 percent of the time.Yes bus service has to be optimized for the greatest good which is why the MTA originally resisted making buses wheelchair accessible until they were forced to by the Americans with Diaabilities Act. Perhaps it's time for another lawsuit because this definitely inconveniences the disabled as well as many more. To expect much greater increases in Paratransit because of this is not financially wise due to the much greater subsidy that system requires. |
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| (337452) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:45:49 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:43:16 2020. There is nothing wrong with my logic and I corrected the mathematics which was insignificant. It is still only a three minute time savings for the average rider that is more than outweighed by the ensuing inconvenienceExcept that you're obviously overestimating the inconvenience by claiming that the average walking distance increase for passengers who have to use a different stop is equal to the distance to the next stop. |
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| (337453) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:48:52 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 10:53:14 2020. That is only summer weekend service and has always been the case even when Green Lines operated the line. But it's only up to Labor Day.A few years ago I was on the bus on a very hot weekend after Labor day and there was a 90 minute wait for the bus because of how crowded they were. I told the MTA and they told me they would consider extending summer weekend service for one more week after that, but I doubt it happened. They need service to Sheepshead Bay also which would cut a three bus, two fare 90 minute trip to a one fare, two bus 45 minute trip. That's how you increase ridership. Not by cutting service. |
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| (337454) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:51:45 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:36:51 2020. I am not so sure of that. The system knows the schedule and where the buses should be. It has no idea how many people are on each bus. If there is a full load or totally empty. Until they can fix that, they need human involvement to determine corrective action. |
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| (337455) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 12:01:49 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:51:45 2020. The bus's engine computer can be used to calculate the load, since a full bus is also a heavier bus. Internal sensors can be used for more precise measurements.I'm not saying it's a good idea, but Mr. Bauman's automation idea would work that way. |
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| (337456) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 12:09:36 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:48:52 2020. I don't remember seeing that in the schedules prior to summer 2019. I have been going there since 2015.Post Labor Day, there are 50% of the life guards, and Septembers are getting warmer. Nonetheless, MTA-BC does not run by the bathhouse. Access from the Brighton Line is now a pain in the ass, though some of their Trip Planner software is rigged to suggest it because it does not recognize Flatbush subway station and the bus stop by Target as one facility. So it tells me to take one of the B## buses 1 or 2 blocks to go from one to the other, which doubles the fare. |
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| (337466) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 12:35:47 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 9 12:09:36 2020. I used the Q35 back in the 1960s so I know Green Lines doubled the summer weekend service to Riis Park which the MTA maintained when they took over the route in 2004. Green only stopped at Avenue U, Kings Highway, and at the Junction. If you didn’t get on at the first stop, chances are you couldn’t even get in the first bus after that even with the extra summer service.First the MTA turned it into a local making all stops. When that proved disastrous, they went back to the original stops, then added a few more like at Avenue P and changed the route circling around to serve Ft Tilden and Roxbury and changing the turnaround at Glenwood Road. That was a good change because it used to take at least five minutes just to reverse directions and you had to stay on the bus for those five minutes. Until two years ago, all the lifeguards ended work on Labor Day. Now it’s the Sunday after Labor Day. |
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| (337468) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Jan 9 12:42:46 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jan 8 23:47:39 2020. "Those other routes"? I thought local and limited-stop service were considered the same route. The S94 is literally the S44 Limited. |
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| (337470) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Jan 9 12:51:32 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 10:11:13 2020. Then you transfer if necessary. The QT24 and QT67 run within a few blocks of the QT5 between Jamaica & ENY. If you need to go to Brookdale (which you can't access from that area under the current system anyway) then you walk a couple of blocks and make the transfer at the appropriate cross-street |
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| (337477) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 13:09:20 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 11:29:33 2020. Yes, because SBS isn't considered local.I've excluded only express buses. Included are SBS, Limited and Local buses. Somehow I just can't believe that 95 percent will be within .3 miles. That sounds like some gross miscalculation. I've included stops where at least one trip per day. I've chose yesterday as a typical weekday, from the latest GTFS schedules. I know the percentages shift, when I selected either Saturday or Sunday. I do have the ability to select stops by hour of day. I have not tried that yet. And if you agree that all bus stops are not equal, why even such an emphasis on the closest bus stop? I have a list of bus stops and a list of census blocks, both with geographical location. It's a question of matching the appropriate stop with each census block. It seems more reasonable that a person would choose the closest stop, rather than one that's 5 miles distant. Somehow I just can't believe that 95 percent will be within .3 miles. That sounds like some gross miscalculation. I doubt that us the case now with the number of transit deserts. If what you say is true, ther would be no talk of transit deserts. Service frequency should play a role in defining a transit desert. |
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| (337478) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 13:12:31 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:33:10 2020. I can see an obvious flaw with that metric.Please share your insight. |
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| (337479) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 13:40:07 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 11:33:25 2020. First reference is fine but doesn’t take into account the ease of transfers for passengers if nearside and farside stops are combined as in the old days.Second reference does consider this but doesn’t take a position, just weighing pros and cons of both. So all this leaves us nowhere. It also states that for urban areas every 750 feet for bus stop spacing is optimal. Nothing about this quarter mile, half mile or every mile shit for bus stop spacing. |
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| (337481) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 13:41:59 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Jan 9 12:42:46 2020. What difference does it make what you call them in the context of this discussion? |
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| (337488) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 14:02:18 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 13:12:31 2020. A census block is not a single geographic point. |
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| (337491) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 14:49:29 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 14:02:18 2020. I'm using the centroid (geographic center) for the distance measurement. |
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| (337498) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 15:52:53 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 12:01:49 2020. But that presently does not exist, so we are talking about some time in the future perhaps. |
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| (337500) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 16:50:48 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 9 10:47:50 2020. Most citibike stations are on the streets and remove parking spaces. Only a few are on the sidewalk where it is exceptionally wide. Most bus stops wouldn’t qualify and many who ride buses wouldn’t bike anyway. |
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| (337505) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 17:12:52 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 16:50:48 2020. Why wouldn’t most bus stops qualify? |
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| (337509) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:21:57 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 17:12:52 2020. Because the sidewalk is not wide enough. |
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| (337510) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:24:02 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by AlM on Thu Jan 9 11:31:33 2020. Air distances are meaningless. People don’t fly yet. |
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| (337511) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:27:55 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:40:01 2020. Okay. |
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| (337512) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:31:28 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:10:45 2020. For some it’s the entire distance and for others it’s 50 percent. Some are unaffected. |
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| (337513) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:33:56 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 11:45:49 2020. You are correct. |
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| (337523) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:10:12 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:21:57 2020. But the former bus stop is where the bikes would go, not the sidewalk. |
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| (337524) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:14:39 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:24:02 2020. Then multiply them by 2½/2 and you can assume the longest possible distance on a grid. |
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| (337525) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:15:30 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:14:39 2020. Sorry. I mean just 2½. No denominator. |
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| (337526) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:17:25 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 9 17:31:28 2020. And for others it’s a range between de minimis and 100% of the distance between the old stop and continuing stop. |
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| (337529) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jan 9 20:48:50 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:15:30 2020. Which is a fair increase. |
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| (337530) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jan 9 21:58:15 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 12:01:49 2020. In Florida, if you look at VoTran's live system map. It appears to show the number of passengers currently on board. It's the first I've seen and think its interesting and could be very useful other places. |
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| (337545) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:31:18 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 9 19:10:12 2020. I didn’t understand that.Of course why should the city add any parking spaces to reduce people from circling around the block and reduce congestion. That would be awful. Everyone would just run out and buy a car if that were done. So yes let’s give the space to the cyclists who are like one percent of the commuters so we can increase cycling and more cyclists fatalities. Makes sense to me. I would rather they just remain bus stops. |
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| (337546) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:33:26 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Jan 9 12:51:32 2020. And what if making an extra transfer turns a two bus trip into a two fare three bus trip. |
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| (337549) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:45:50 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:31:18 2020. Is it in the City's interests to encourage more car purchases? How many more cars on the road do you think it's good for NYC to have? |
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| (337550) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:48:01 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 10:33:26 2020. I'm hoping the underlying idea here is universal 3-leg transfers, or unlimited transfers for a given time period. If we are not going to get any new transfer-benefits, then I reject the entire proposal and its philosophy. |
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| (337556) | |
Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 10 12:22:27 2020, in response to Re: Sign if you agree. RE:bus stop spacings, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Jan 10 10:45:50 2020. I was being sarcastic.No one is going to run out and buy a car if some parking spaces are added. I was using the logic of auto haters who believe that if you make any improvements for drivers like synching traffic signals or removing a bottleneck, everyone will run to buy a car. Auto purchase and ownership is a very complicated decision to make. You first have to ask yourself if you will use it often enough for it to be worth your while. Would renting, zip cars, or taxis make more sense. Can you afford the insurance? What about the increasing price of gas? How much will parking it cost? Will it help you get a job? Will you be using it regularly or occasionally. Is the cost worth the convenience? Is the time saved worth the extra cost? Etc. It is not a decision you make on a whim based on a single factor that auto haters would have you believe. |
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