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| (335397) | |
My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019 As promised, I am releasing my bus network redesign for Brooklyn after many months of work and revisions. It does not include the express bus network. It is about 20 pages of text and about 75 pages of maps.It also discusses the MTA's planning efforts in the other boroughs criticizing the approach being taken. It also contains much system history. I would be pleased to hear comments, and of course it is subject to revision. This is Version 3.0. |
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| (335398) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 11:09:50 2019, in response to My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019. Nice to see a new one of these; lots of fun to read and imagine.I'd say the most striking and novel idea is uniting the B67 and B70; but might it then be good to switch the northern portions of the B37 and B67? That is, the B37 at its north end would go via 7 Ave to Livingston/Court and the B67 at its north end would go via 3 Ave to Atlantic/Flatbush. (South of 39 St the routes would be as they are now). Yes, it takes away a full-length 3 Ave line, but it might make the routes more even in length and thus dependability. (Of course you can say keep the northern portions the same and switch the southern portions and call the routes what you will. . .it's the idea of interchanging them that I'm getting at). I would also suggest at this point that having two services working "together" on 7 Ave was one of the positive elements of the 2010 service cuts and I don't think reversing it would be a good idea, so I'd keep the B69 on 7 Ave. Also, if I see correctly, if the B69 doesn't come to 7 Ave, then it never gives anyone an easy transfer to the 7 Ave service. The Q45 idea is interesting, but would have to be integrated well into the Q22/35, which then takes us beyond the scope of Brooklyn. |
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| (335400) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 12:26:58 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 11:09:50 2019. Where do get the idea that two services on 7th Avenue is postive? The walk from 7 Av to POW is long and hilly. Moving the B69 has not been popular. Is 7 Av service more frequent or reliable with 2 routes? Does anyone use the B69 to Downtown Brooklyn if it comes first? I see your point about equalizing route lengths but I don't think 7 Ave riders would want to lose their connection to the Borough Hall area or have less service to it. Thanks for resding. |
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| (335401) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 12:59:37 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 12:26:58 2019. I don't know what frequencies you have in mind for B37 and B67 but in my scenario the northern 7th Ave service would still go to Borough Hall. It just would have originated along 3 Ave while in Bay Ridge. So the B37 would be: Borough Hall - 7th Ave (Park Slope) - 3rd Ave (Bay Ridge).The B67 would be Barclays Center - 3rd Ave (Park Slope) - 7th Ave (Dyker Heights). Or reverse the route numbers for the same effect. Such a configuration also stops the current B37 from just repeating the R line one avenue away. As for 7th vs. 8th/9th Aves, PPW borders a park. 7th Ave has a bunch of stuff. You have an opportunity with your plan to go from Park Slope to Williamsburg with one bus (B69). I think such a route would be most helpful if it ran closest to the heart of Park Slope, not on its Prospect Park and Windsor Terrace borders. The only thing I like about driving on 8th and 9th Aves are its "traveling lights," that is the ones that turn green as you reach them all the way down, but buses stopping every couple of blocks don't benefit too much from those. Also, I would prefer a transfer between B67, 68, and 69, either by having the B68 extend to a 7 Ave terminus, or having the B69 use PPW south of Pritchard Square. |
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| (335402) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 13:14:43 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 12:59:37 2019. What you suggest are certainly possibilities. I would have to think about it for a while before responding. |
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| (335403) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 13:19:28 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 13:14:43 2019. Sure. I certainly haven't done any in-depth to analysis to be fully sure what I'm saying is better, but just looking in from the outside, and at an area that I've been through and around frequently in my life. |
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| (335404) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 13:23:41 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 13:19:28 2019. P.S. Another perk of breaking up the continuous 3rd Ave route - it gives both B37 and B67 a transfer to the R train and B63 bus. It also allows the lower half of 3rd Ave a one-seat ride to the F/G train (at 7th Ave / 9th St) without having to walk. |
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| (335406) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 14:43:52 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Aug 8 13:23:41 2019. I like the idea of not having the B37 parallel the subway for the entire way. I am just afraid it might cause unnecessary opposition since the people worked so hard to get it restored. But what I might do is add an options section in the future where I could mention this alternative as well as any other worthwhile deas suggested. We have time until the MTA studies Brooklyn. |
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| (335407) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by mike nash on Thu Aug 8 15:17:15 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 14:43:52 2019. what about betford ave bwtween foster and bergen? |
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| (335409) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 8 17:06:08 2019, in response to My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019. One thing I would recommend is that bus routes that are direct feeders to subway lines should run overnight at the same headways as the subway lines they connect to. It does a disservice to passengers to have trains running at 20 min intervals while the connecting buses are running at non matching headways like 30, 45 or 60 min. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by mike nash on Thu Aug 8 17:20:29 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 8 17:06:08 2019. i agree with u but that would cost allot and serve a few . i would say run maching headways till 2am mondayy- firday morming and 3 sat and su nd morning. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 18:12:12 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 8 17:06:08 2019. I agree, but it's a matter of costs.Do you think the MTA will be willing To provide three times the service it provides now overnight on these routes? |
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| (335412) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 18:16:13 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by mike nash on Thu Aug 8 15:17:15 2019. There would be no service on Bedford. Remember, there only is service on Bedford now because Rogers and Nostrand were converted to one way operation in the mid sixties. And the only reason why service was provided on two adjacent streets anyway was that two private companies were after the same clientele. |
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| (335424) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Snilcher on Fri Aug 9 16:51:05 2019, in response to My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019. Can you explain your rationale for eliminating the B7 service along Kings Highway? |
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| (335425) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Aug 9 17:14:26 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Snilcher on Fri Aug 9 16:51:05 2019. The B46 and B47 operate a half mile apart and have good service. The B7 operates between those two routes with infrequent service and low ridership. Service on other parts of the route can be picked up by other routes.Anyone can make plans by throwing on additional levels of service and causing major operating expense increases. The difficult part is to try to find something to eliminate by only causing minor inconvenience to minimize extra expenses. The only times the B7 is heavily utilized is by school students from Tilden High School if that is what it is still called. Special buses could still operate to serve the school perhaps going off-route, but regular service on this portion of the B7 isn’t necessary. I used the same strategy in 1978, by eliminating a portion of the B1 along Avenue X between Ocean Parkway and East 14 St. That service was not missed, and many more were helped than hurt by those changes which should be the goal of any route restructuring. It is never possible to please everyone. The old 1978 B1 partial elimination only received one written complaint. |
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| (335427) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 19:15:55 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by mike nash on Thu Aug 8 17:20:29 2019. If it were to run it would probably serve more than just a “few." |
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| (335428) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 19:19:24 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 18:12:12 2019. According to an old timer I knew who started as a BMT trolley M/M Certain lines like the Nostrand Ave had specific shuttle runs from Flatbush/Nostrand to supplement the mainline Nostrand Av cars specifically for subway passengers. When I was in Chicago in 1989, I noticed that night buses on many lines ran even better that the el. |
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| (335429) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Aug 9 19:57:16 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 9 19:19:24 2019. Even in the 1970’s the Flatbush Avenue line still had supplemental rush hour service from Flatbush/Nostrand to both southern terminals. So when buses were delayed in Flatbush Orin downtown Brooklyn, subway riders still had regular service when they transferred to the bus. |
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| (335430) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Aug 9 20:13:36 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Aug 9 17:14:26 2019. You want to B7 the B7. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by The silence on Sat Aug 10 08:06:39 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Aug 9 20:13:36 2019. ...and kill one of the original memes of this community? |
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| (335433) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 10 16:07:41 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Aug 9 19:57:16 2019. The problem isn’t so much during peak periods. It’s during midnight hours when service is less frequent. |
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| (335434) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Aug 10 21:37:17 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 10 16:07:41 2019. That’s why I proposed to Bergen Beach route run to the junction rush hours and overnights. |
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| (335439) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 22:51:46 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Aug 10 21:37:17 2019. That’s OK but on what headways? |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Aug 11 23:31:06 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Aug 9 20:13:36 2019. I hear if you do that, you’ll break SubChat. |
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| (335441) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Aug 12 07:22:30 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 11 22:51:46 2019. To meet every other train. Obviously it would be better to meet each train. |
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| (335442) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Aug 12 07:36:41 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Aug 11 23:31:06 2019. Cool! |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 12 18:22:59 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Aug 12 07:22:30 2019. Each train would be the ideal. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 13:42:21 2019, in response to My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019. This is the latest version (3.5) of the Brooklyn Bus Network Redesign I developed. The proposals have not changed since the last plan, but it provides updated information.If link doesn’t work, copy and paste https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19 Below is the abstract of the plan: “This document shows how to restructure Brooklyn’s local bus network with the objective of increasing ridership by making the system more user-friendly. It accomplishes this objective by making most trips possible using only one or two buses or bus and subway. Service gaps are filled; routes are generally longer, straighter and more direct, but with most buses traveling shorter distances to better increase reliability and better fit service to demand. Airport access and interborough travel are also improved. Implementation is accomplished in phases with a small investment in increased operating costs to generate greater revenue.” |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 26 16:59:09 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 13:42:21 2019. I get a “Page cannot be found” message. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 18:28:21 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 26 16:59:09 2019. If you copy and paste the link it should work. For some reason it doesn't work when you click.https://1drv.ms/b/s!AmiYAcY6ebQngUDLhOC-BonmAg19 |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Nov 28 12:11:15 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 18:28:21 2019. Still no good -Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site. We can’t connect to the server at 1drv.ms. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Nov 28 15:40:54 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Dan on Thu Nov 28 12:11:15 2019. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Nov 28 17:00:18 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Nov 28 15:40:54 2019. So much for that. It stopped working after about on hour. |
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| (336685) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Nov 29 09:53:56 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Nov 28 17:00:18 2019. I don’t understand. I just copied and pasted it on my iPad and it worked. Try now. If not you can go here:https://www.nyctransitforums.com/topic/54010-brooklyn-bus-network-redesign-discussion/?tab=comments#comment-1047145 No one has complained it doesn’t open there, |
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| (336706) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Dec 2 16:11:55 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 18:28:21 2019. It works for me, I had to zoom it down a bit to read it, it's 101 pages. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Dec 3 07:48:50 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Dec 2 16:11:55 2019. Yes. But only 20 pages of texts. The rest is mostly maps. |
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| (336753) | |
Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Dec 5 19:11:47 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Dec 3 07:48:50 2019. Yes, I agree. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 7 12:14:39 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 26 18:28:21 2019. I like Some of the proposals.Not all. You have to consider that a lot of people still ride buses into the late evenings,And during the over nights. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Dec 7 14:00:12 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 7 12:14:39 2019. I know. Especially in northern Brooklyn. How do my proposals not conAllan Poe sider that? |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 7 15:55:59 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Dec 7 14:00:12 2019. Don't get me Wrong.I'm all for some consolidating, and straitening lines.. But some over night service Must be retained for connectivity. If I read your report correctly, B54 service would end all over night service. There is only One bus overnight on that route as it is. The 38 is too far away to close the distance, and the G is a poor substitute. North Brooklyn bore the brunt of the last bus 'restructuring' before most services were restored. Like I said, I m all for New ROUTES and Fixing services to match travel patterns. But let's not do more harm than good while doing it. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Dec 7 22:16:48 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 7 15:55:59 2019. Of course we should do no more harm than good.The B38 is about a quarter mile from the B54. So even without the B54, there would still be an east west bus within about a half mile walk. The trade off is instead of walking a quarter mile for a route running every 60 minutes, you would walk a half mile for a route running every 30 minutes for the same costs. Actually, that is the same theory proposed by the MTA to have fewer routes with more frequent service. I am opposed to that idea during the day because I believe coverage is just as important as frequency. But at night, it is a different story because 60 minute service is virtually useless. I think most would agree with me and accept less coverage at night for more frequent service. If they prefer the routes we have with 60 minute service, then I would be wrong. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 8 07:47:09 2019, in response to My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Aug 8 10:11:56 2019. Not sure I agree with your premise. Concerns about having to walk farther to a bus stop (e.g. for older riders) are the same at night as during the day. In fact, it could be even more of a concern if the walk is in a marginal neighborhood.While there are people who would prefer to walk more for a bus that arrived sooner, there are probably also people who would prefer to wait in one place with less walking even if they had to wait longer. Wasn't this one reason the B37 was restored? As far as the B54, it was made a 24-hour route when the portion of the Myrtle Avenue el west of Broadway was dismantled. Perhaps enough time has passed since then that supplementing the old service doesn't matter as much. But perhaps not. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 8 07:48:43 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 8 07:47:09 2019. Sorry, that last message was meant to be a reply to BrooklynBus:"Actually, that is the same theory proposed by the MTA to have fewer routes with more frequent service. I am opposed to that idea during the day because I believe coverage is just as important as frequency. But at night, it is a different story because 60 minute service is virtually useless. I think most would agree with me and accept less coverage at night for more frequent service. If they prefer the routes we have with 60 minute service, then I would be wrong." |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 8 09:05:35 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 8 07:47:09 2019. I think that the underlying assumption is that people out at night are probably more able-bodied than those out during the day (e.g. a senior citizen struggling to get to the doctor won't be out in the middle of the night). Thus, the "coverage-culture" should be different such that more walking in exchange for more frequency is more appropriate at night. I haven't thought through it much myself, but I think this is the basic assumption being made. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Dec 8 09:58:20 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 8 09:05:35 2019. Yes it is and I agree with you. The MTA seems to feel frequency is more preferable to coverage at all hours. I do t think you can prioritize either during the day. They are equally as important. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 8 12:44:10 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Dec 7 22:16:48 2019. 60 minutes between buses is the MTAs doing.It should be at least 2 buses an hour. Also, late night walking, from Myrtle Ave to DeKalb is something most people wont want to do, especially since the same applies to Flushing (no over night service). |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 8 12:54:04 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Snilcher on Sun Dec 8 07:47:09 2019. The line is pretty important to the nabs it passes through, since there isn't any subway service between Marcy and Flatbush Avenues.The gap between Broadway and Marcy are LONG blocks. Killing off overnight services in lue of the B38 is madness.. especially the further you approach Downtown Brooklyn. The MTA killed off ridership by cutting service continuously since 2010. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 8 13:00:52 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Dec 8 09:58:20 2019. However, regardless of what is perceived,'No service' verses 'Some service' is not an option.There is No Overnight on the 57. Elimination of the 54 will compound that by creating an unnecessary service gap that will only drive people to Uber and other cab service. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Dec 8 13:09:52 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 8 13:00:52 2019. Right. When they cut the B57 hawk that severed overnight service between Maspeth and downtown Brooklyn.Once they extended the line to IKEA 2 hawks would be required. I guess they don't want that. |
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Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 8 13:58:47 2019, in response to Re: My Proposed Brooklyn Bus Network redesign, posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 8 13:00:52 2019. Transit has many purposes. Keeping people out of cabs is one of them, but I would say that overnight, that particular purpose need not be emphasized. At rush hour, people traversing a CBD by cab rather than by public transit suggests analysis. Overnight, not so much. |
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