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| Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study (334709) | |
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| (334709) | |
Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019 With the Queens Bus Redesign underway, I though it would be useful to look at the last comprehensive look at the borough's buses. Keep in mind that this is for NYCTA routes only. There are too many pages to post here, but here is the link to the album of photos for every page of this study from June 1984. BrooklynBus probably knows a bit about this study.Here are some selected pages                     |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 7 07:03:53 2019, in response to Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019. First, I want to thank you for all of the great work you're doing in seeking out these old documents and making them available on the internet for historical reference.Second, did you know that you can scan PDFs page by page on a smartphone? The iPhone has this built into the notes app, and it automatically figures out the margins. I'm certain Android does as well plus there are third party apps. I used this to copy a file at the Nassau County Clerk's Office recently and it was much better than using the flatbed copier at 25 cents a page. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 07:26:24 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 7 07:03:53 2019. You are welcome. A lot of people, youngsters especially, think that everything is online when that is not the case. There are tons of documents that are publicly available in libraries and archives that would be great to have out on the web. I used my camera and did not have a smartphone. For certain documents, like the Bronx subway route study from the 1970s I have manually used my scanner. Thanks so much. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jun 7 08:26:46 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 7 07:03:53 2019. Second, did you know that you can scan PDFs page by page on a smartphone?Does this work on bound books (where the image can't all be made perfectly flat) or large images? Incidentally, 20 years ago I asked at the NYPL, main location, if I could get maps scanned (for a fee) and was told no, they didn't have the equipment. Hopefully that has changed. (I never asked again because now the maps I want are available online as PDFs.) |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 7 08:53:59 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 7 08:26:46 2019. Does this work on bound books (where the image can't all be made perfectly flat) or large images?I've only tried this with 8.5x11 pages, but it does work on bound materials. In the example I cited, the pages were stapled, sometimes with two upper staples, and they could not be un-stapled. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Snilcher on Fri Jun 7 12:42:55 2019, in response to Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019. For those who are curious, you can see maps of all three of the Queens shuttle routes I mentioned in the above photographs. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 8 03:53:30 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 7 08:26:46 2019. I remember going on microfilm at the main branch Brooklyn Public Library for the 1929 newspaper article that had the map of the proposed IND Second System, right around the time the Internet was getting into people's homes. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 8 03:55:20 2019, in response to Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019. I'm glad the Q44A (Q46) ended up the way it did. It works perfectly as is now, pulling into LIJ Hospital where people want to go.I wonder what happened with North Shore Towers -- my guess is the residents didn't want a "public" bus coming through, the express bus to Manhattan not being counted among those. Even so, I'd say it serves a better purpose looping through the hospital property than going there. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 11 19:02:10 2019, in response to Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019. I was in the Department in 1981 and 1982 when this study was undertaken. I knew the person who directed that study. I was the second director of the Brooklyn Sufficiency Study. There also wrre Manhattan and Staten Island Sufficiency studies also being conducted at the same time. The Bronx Study had been completed already. I never seen the final report since I was out of the Department by 1984.I find the preface interesting because they explain that they did not accomplish the goals of the study which were to develop comprehensive system of bus proposals and rationalize them with the subway system. Then they state they will not be implementing many of the proposals they did develop because of funding constraints. The report still looks better than the Brooklyn report that was prepared after I left. All that was were about five pages of text discussing the goals of the study and study methodology followed by 300 pages of tables and graphs and no recommendations. It was so embarrassing, I didn't even want a copy. The Staten Island Study resulted in two bus route changes, and I do nit believe the Manhattan Study resulted in any changes. The Director of the Manhattan Study asked me to give him some proposals because he didn't know what to do with the data. I refused and told him to do his job. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 04:44:34 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 11 19:02:10 2019. Thanks. Why were these studies undertaken in the first place? At some point I will take pictures of the other studies as they are at archives I have gone to in Manhattan before. What changes resulted from the SI study? |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:09:29 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 04:44:34 2019. A little personal history first which is relevant. After I got my MS in urban planning from Columbia with my masters thesis on revising Brooklyn bus routes,, I got a job as a planner in the Transportation division at the NYC Department of City Planning. They asked me what I would like to do. I told them study Brooklyn bus routes. They responded that they just got federal monies and they don't know what to do with it so they will do a Brooklyn Bus Study. That was in 1974. We soon realized that $200,000 was not enough to study the entire borough so it was limited to 86 Street and to East New York. The 86 St part was then expanded to southwest Brooklyn. (I have both reports in my house.)The result was the Southwest Brooklyn changes in 1978 that only happened because of a lawsuit, because the MTA resisted making any changes. They vowed that no other agency would ever again tell them how to plan. That still stands today. So they said they will apply for any federal monies so that DCP or DOT doesn't get it. So when more federal monies became available in1979, They received money for a Zone Express study in Southeast Queens which was just concluding when I arrived at NYCT in 1980. They also got money for a Bronx Study also completed in 1980. That may have resulted in the Bronx changes of the mid 1980s. And they got funding for a Brooklyn Sufficiency study in 1979 or 1980. They received $625,000. By the end of 1980, they has spent 2/3 of the money and completed only one third of the tasks. That's when I was brought in to save the study. First I had to apply for $200,000 more to complete the study. But after six months, I was no longer head of bus planning because I couldn't take the diesel fumes because of my asthma. Others were also sick and my boss was afraid I would sue them, that's when I was transferred from East NY to Jay Street where I continued to head the Brooklyn study and bus and subway planning was combined to form Operations Planning in November 1981. It was previously called Rapid Transit Operations Planning and was a division of RTO. The director of Operations Planning was more interested in creating an empire. He wasn't interested in making any improvements. So he applied for grants to study Manhattan, Queens and Staten Island so he could expand his group which only had about ten people, but now had 35. Soon there were about 50 by the time I left. Several years later after long disputes with Surface (the previous name for Buses) they took Schedules and doubled the size of the department to 100. It steadily grew after that. I do not remember which two routes were changed from the Staten Island study but I think it was improved changes to the mall. As far as the Brooklyn Study was concerned, I had designed and costed out in only three months proposals for the entire borough but my boss sabatoged the study by makng me do over the proposals five times creating endless series of alternatives just to keep the study going because he was afraid of repercussions from his bosses if any proposal failed. I was then forced out of Operations Planning. I still think many of the proposals I created then and which were in my masters thesis are still good today. The final report ended up having no proposals, but only showed data from the borough survey of bus riders from the first $300,000 spent. Sorry if I told you more than you wanted to know. Anyway, I have recently resurrected my ideas and am almost ready to publish them. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:15:31 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:09:29 2019. I forgot to mention that in 1993, the MTA did another southern Brooklyn bus and subway study that also resulted in no changes. One proposal from that study was to resurrect the F express to Kings Highway. And in 2006, NYMTC spent $6 million on a southern Brooklyn Transportation study that also resulted in no changes. I believe the MTA study total was over $20 million for very few changes. So the $200,000 spent by City Planning which resulted in real changes was a bargain. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 07:23:56 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:09:29 2019. Thanks so much for this background information, which is very interesting but infuriating. I would love to see the SW Brooklyn study and the study for 86th Street, if possible. I look forward to seeing your ideas when you publish them. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 07:24:18 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:15:31 2019. Do you know what the name of the 1993 study was? Thanks. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jun 12 07:51:09 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 07:23:56 2019. Well,"studies" are just what they are labeled.It's a fact finder to see what MIGHT work,HOW it might work,and IF it would benefit the operator(cost,manpower,power consumption) AND the general public. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 08:04:33 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jun 12 07:51:09 2019. I don't get your point. Even if the conclusions are not acted upon, the studies are interesting to look at. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 12:23:28 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jun 12 07:51:09 2019. I don’t agree. The purpose of studies are to make improvements. Not to tell us what the improvements would be if they can be afforded financially. Anyone can do fantasy planning, but the MTA supposed to do real planning. The only acceptable reason for not making improvements is when all options are considered and it is determined the existing system works the best. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 12:26:33 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 07:23:56 2019. The 86th Street Study evolved into the Southwest Brooklyn Study. Other than the copies I have, there is one copy in the Main Brooklyn Public Library. It is called “Routes”. Can you get to Brooklyn? |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 12 13:50:41 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 12:26:33 2019. This? |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 14:04:26 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jun 12 13:50:41 2019. That's it.That was the report for the public. There was a more complete report of 300 pages with the computer data. They only printed about 20 copies of that one and I am probably the only one with a copy other than someone who borrowed it from me to make another copy. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Wed Jun 12 18:55:04 2019, in response to Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Jun 7 06:00:00 2019. I like that Q14 to Fort Totten.... |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 13 04:16:07 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 07:09:29 2019. I forgot to mention that in 1993, the MTA did another southern Brooklyn bus and subway study that also resulted in no changes. One proposal from that study was to resurrect the F express to Kings Highway. And in 2006, NYMTC spent $6 million on a southern Brooklyn Transportation study that also resulted in no changes. I believe the MTA study total was over $20 million for very few changes. So the $200,000 spent by City Planning which resulted in real changes was a bargain. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Snilcher on Thu Jun 13 12:44:20 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Jun 12 18:55:04 2019. I also liked that Q14 proposal. Not long ago when they discontinued the Q14, I suggested on this forum that the Q34 should be extended to cover the Q14 route (and was informed that couldn't happen because MTA Bus and NYCT don't mix). But extending the Q34 all the way up Willets Point Blvd to Fort Totten would actually be more useful.Another suggestion that appeared on this forum a while ago was combining the Q76 and Q77 into a single Francis Lewis Blvd. through route. I was doubtful then due to the loss of the subway connection. But the exact same proposal shows up in the Queens study, so I guess the commuting patterns don't demand it being a subway feeder. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by transitbuff on Thu Jun 13 13:40:44 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jun 11 19:02:10 2019. The last paragraph sums up my feelings... |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 13 14:47:59 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Jun 12 07:24:18 2019. No. I can’t remember. It had Southern Brooklyn in the title. It was done at the same time as the Northeast Bronx Study. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 15:57:58 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 13 14:47:59 2019. Are any of these old studies online? |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jun 13 19:26:25 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 15:57:58 2019. Ask Union Tpke. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jun 13 20:05:21 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BusRider on Thu Jun 13 15:57:58 2019. Not to my knowledge. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 14 05:41:04 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jun 12 12:23:28 2019. Or petty squabbles get in the way to prevent it.Brooklyn bus Said exactly that. Also,it was those same 'studies that decimated Brooklyn bus routes,killed connectivity and generally made riding hellish for seniors/disabled...UNTIL someone with common sense placed the missing routes back. Still. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 14 07:59:50 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Edwards! on Fri Jun 14 05:41:04 2019. I guess you are referring to the 2010 service cuts. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Jun 15 03:45:54 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by Snilcher on Thu Jun 13 12:44:20 2019. To the extent that NYCT and MTAB "don't mix," I think we'll run into similar walls which would prevent Queens in particular from really having the best of route structures. Still, we've come such a long way since MTAB's inception that it doesn't bother me too much. Since Eastern Queens is made up mostly of feeder routes to the subway, I'd wager a guess that much of the restructuring will be in the Astoria / LIC area, or in areas where there is less of a mix between NYCT and MTAB routes. |
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Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jun 15 10:48:07 2019, in response to Re: Queens Transit Service Sufficiency Study, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jun 14 07:59:50 2019. Yup. |
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