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Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 1 08:56:29 2017 Tuscarora Almanac – March 1, 1962 – The Book of Last Runs New York City Surface Transit Corporation Fifth Avenue Coach Lines Due to a strike Surface Transit and Fifth Avenue Coach Lines cease all bus operations. When service resumes on March 23 the bus route will be run by the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority. This will be the very last day for the M-105 10th Avenue Line as it will not be resumed by MaBSTOA. Source: New York Division Bulletin /December 2002, article by Mr. Bernard Linder Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by andy on Wed Mar 1 10:40:23 2017, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 1 08:56:29 2017. Yes, it happened that date, which also saw an American Airlines jet crash after takeoff at JFK (then Idlewild or officially NY International Airport), and a ticker tape parade on Lower Broadway for John Glenn.Should note that the Transport Workers Union struck the FACO-Surface Transit companies because a new management had taken over two weeks before, and on March 1 laid off 29 light duty employees, in violation of the contract between the TWU and FACO. These men were veteran employees who had been drivers but due to accidents or injuries were kept on the payroll as watchmen, clerks, or street fare collectors. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Wed Mar 1 11:47:29 2017, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 1 08:56:29 2017. It was also the last time FACCO Route 1 Fifth Avenue ran. The route ran from Washington Square to 135 St & 5 Av. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by andy on Wed Mar 1 23:48:09 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Wed Mar 1 11:47:29 2017. By the 1950s this route had become a once a day trip to hold the franchise. The parallel #1 and #2 buses on Madison Avenue were adequate for trips between the 120s and 130s and points below 110th Street.And of course Ralph Kramden drove the #1/#2 Madison Ave. bus! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Mar 2 01:50:07 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Wed Mar 1 10:40:23 2017. And here was one of the few areas where fiery TWU chief Mike Quill and Mayor Robert F. Wagner were in agreement. Hence the developments that led to the creation of MaBSTOA and the placing of all FACL and Surface Transit bus routes under this new agency's aegis. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Mar 2 01:58:03 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Wed Mar 1 11:47:29 2017. By the time bus traffic through Washington Square was banned by the city effective Sept. 2, 1963, only three ex-FACCO routes terminated there: the 2, 3 and 5. Their initial terminus afterwards was 8th Street between Fifth and University Place, turning there onto 9th Street and then back to Fifth. This only lasted till Nov. 10, 1963 (the day Sixth Avenue south of Herald Square became one way northbound, and Broadway between Herald Square and Canal Street one way southbound), when 2 and 3's terminus was moved to 8th Street and Fourth Avenue, and the 5 was moved all the way to Houston Street and West Broadway - leading to its traveling through East 8th and Broadway southbound, and Sixth Avenue and West 8th northbound.Route 1 didn't return to Fifth Avenue until the Jan. 14, 1966 conversion of Fifth Avenue to one way northbound and Madison Avenue to one way southbound - after which ex-NYCO route 1's southbound path was rerouted to Fifth between 135th and 40th Streets. This was the reverse of the 2 where ITS northbound route was changed to Madison, the only remnant of NYCO's 2. (On that same 1966 day, the 5's northbound route up to its turning at 57th Street was switched to the rest of Sixth Avenue.) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Mar 2 01:59:14 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Thu Mar 2 01:58:03 2017. Apologies - I meant, Fifth Avenue had become one-way SOUTHbound and Madison Avenue one way NORTHbound on that January day in 1966. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Mar 2 02:05:57 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Wed Mar 1 23:48:09 2017. The irony was that ex-NYCO (and at the point of the strike, FACL) 2969 - inside and around which Jackie Gleason and his "Honeymooners" cast posed for publicity photos in 1955 - was among the fleet which would be seized by the city and placed under MaBSTOA aegis; by fall 1965 it was listed as being in the same depot, at 100th Street on the upper East Side, where it had begun its long service life when it and 74 other buses in the same order (TDH-4509's numbered 2947 through 3021) were delivered by GM to NYCO in late 1950. Most of its life was spent traversing the route #18 86th Street crosstown (today's M86+SBS). #1/#2, in NYCO days, was assigned out of that same depot. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Fri Mar 3 07:02:25 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Wed Mar 1 11:47:29 2017. An irony about the whole M1 business, what with the 1966 rerouting of ex-NYCO #1 to Fifth Avenue southbound between 135th and 40th Streets with that and Madison Avenue's respective one-way conversions, is that as constituted since 2010, today's M1 is more or less in line with the old FACCO route that was discontinued back in '62 - even to the point of its northbound route following the same post-1966 pattern as ex-FACCO M2 and M3, turning at Park Avenue South and 25th Street towards Madison Avenue. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Mar 4 09:51:19 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Fri Mar 3 07:02:25 2017. Park Avenue South. 23 St, Madison Avenue routing goes even further back. That was the original routing of Madison Avenue Coach Co. Rt 2. BTW- When FACCO routes terminated at Wanamaker Terminal (as an alternate to Washington Sq.). the ran south bound on Fifth Av, east on 10 St., south on 4 Av., to Wanamaker Place. Return on Wanamaker Place to 5 Av., then north. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Mar 4 10:19:54 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Sat Mar 4 09:51:19 2017. After Broadway became one-way southbound between Herald Square and Canal Street on Nov. 10, 1963, buses that had previously gone southbound along Fourth Avenue and Lafayette Street were rerouted to Broadway. This would have included ex-NYCO #1. (I presume that late '63 traffic pattern shift was what ended the ex-FACCO "alternate" route from Fifth to 10th Street, Fourth, and Wanamaker Place.) But by then, ex-FACCO #2 and #3's southern terminus had been settled (on that same day!) at 8th Street and 4th Avenue anyway. (So the post-1966 M2 would have been a FACCO-NYCO hybrid after all, unlike the ex-MACCO/NYCO #1 which was the only route of that entity to travel, if only one way, along Fifth Avenue after '66?)B.T.W., when was the Park Avenue South-to-Madison Avenue transition northbound shifted from 23rd to 25th? (And I seem to recall MACCO/NYCO #1, before its northbound route transitioning from Park to Madison at 39th, doing so at 42nd - when was that switched [and the southbound transitioning, to 40th]?) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Mar 4 11:07:29 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sat Mar 4 10:19:54 2017. MACCO?/YCO Rt.2 always used 25 St. Rt 1 used 42 St until 1966 when 5th & Madison became one way.Too difficult to turn at 42 St. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 20:51:01 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sat Mar 4 10:19:54 2017. The #2 was not a FACO-NYCO hybrid after January 1966, but remained as two separate routes. The FACO version was rechristened #2A (via 110th St & 7th Ave) to differentiate from the NYCO version, which remained #2 (via 116th St & Lenox Ave).In March 1969 the #2 was re-routed to Third (NB) and Lexington (SB) Aves., continuing to operate on 116th St. and Lenox as before. It was renumbered #101A, and despite the Surface Transit sounding number was actually the old NYCO #4 Lexington/Lenox route. #2A continued to operate as previous, an updated FACO #2 route. In the early 70s all alpha suffixes and duplicate numbers in Manhattan were finally eliminated. #101A became #2 and #2A reverted back to its original #2. Amazingly, with the M prefix added, these numbers are still the same today. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Mar 6 21:40:35 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 20:51:01 2017. Funny, I seemed to recall M101A, in 1974, renamed M102. Oh well . . .But that's what it was, I suspected the FACCO #2 becoming (M)2A (on its way to being changed to M2 in '74), travelling as it did via Seventh north of 110th. By the time MTA made their decision to have borough prefices on all their routes in 1972, the M2A was the only one remaining, ex-NYCO #2 being so juggled (as you've just noted) into M101A . . . I'd've thought the #101A moniker dated to the July 1960 one-way conversions of Third Avenue to NB and Lexington to SB (the same route pattern change which led to NYCO's #3 and #4 being eliminated) . . . who knew it was nearly nine years after with the NYCO #2 being so renumbered? I presume this means that, from 1960 to 1969, the Surface Transit #101 Third(/Lexington)/Amsterdam (to 193rd/Fort George) was the only one travelling along Third and Lexington Avenues? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Mar 6 22:15:17 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Mon Mar 6 21:40:35 2017. NYCO Rt2 was formerly Madison Avenue Coach Co.'s Rt.2.NYCO Rt.3 was Lexington Av and NYCO Rt.4 was Lexington & Lenox Aves. It was NYCO's Lexington Av routes that became Surface Transit Rt M-101A |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 22:50:45 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Mon Mar 6 21:40:35 2017. Yes, from 1960, when Third and Lexington became one-way, until 1969, the #101 was the only bus route on those avenues. The full service went between City Hall (South terminal) and Fort George (North terminal). Short term variations and combinations included south terminal turns at 6th Street, and north terminal turns at 125th Street. But all were #101 without any suffixes or variations. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Mar 7 21:08:25 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 22:50:45 2017. The million-dollar question then becomes, On what day in March 1969 was the Fifth, Madison and Lenox Avenues route #2 transformed into Third, Lexington and Lenox Avenues #101A? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Tue Mar 7 23:17:09 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Tue Mar 7 21:08:25 2017. "The million-dollar question then becomes, On what day in March 1969 was the Fifth, Madison and Lenox Avenues route #2 transformed into Third, Lexington and Lenox Avenues #101A?"According to the Motor Coach Age article "MaBSTOA - The First Ten Years" in its May 1972 issue, it was March 2, 1969. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Mar 7 23:33:25 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by X-Astorian on Tue Mar 7 23:17:09 2017. Thank you! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Wed Mar 8 14:13:41 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Tue Mar 7 23:33:25 2017. You're welcome - it's great being a millionaire now. ; ] |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Wed Jun 14 15:23:27 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 20:51:01 2017. I have another question regarding ex-NYCO #2. Reading the Nov. 5, 1963 New York Times article about the pending one-way conversions of Fourth Avenue and Lafayette Street; Sixth Avenue south of Herald Square; and Broadway between Herald and Madison Squares and between Union Square and Canal Street, it noted that said #2 turned at Broadway (after Nov. 10 of that year) onto East Fourth Street towards the Bowery (presumably its southern terminus back then was City Hall, as was definitely the case with ex-NYCO #1 which terminated there after running along Broadway south of Union Square). I wonder if this held after the 1966 Fifth and Madison one-way conversions (and that of Broadway from Madison Square to Union Square), and at what point the #2 left Fifth on its southbound travels - 8th Street (as did ex-FACCo's 2A and 3)? 23rd Street? 26th Street? Certainly if it was still City Hall that would go some ways (besides route duplication of 2A south of 110th) towards the rerouting to Third and Lexington as 101A after 1969 (and renumbering as M102 in 1974). I suppose the answer would be in that 1972 Motor Coach Age article about MaBSTOA's first ten years . . . |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by andy on Wed Jun 14 16:32:46 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Wed Jun 14 15:23:27 2017. The 2, 2A, and 3 turned left from SB 5th Ave, to EB 8th Street, and continued to Cooper Union (8th St-4th Ave.), and stood at the corner. NB trips turned left (WB) on 9th St., right to NB University Place, right onto EB 14th St., and then left (NB) onto 4th Ave. More recently, the 1, 2, and 3 remain on 4th Ave./Park Ave. South to 27th St, and turn west for a block to Madison Ave. NB.#1's south terminal was South Ferry, but I believe weekdays only. On northbound trips from South Ferry it used Lafayette St. to 8th St., then continued on 4th Ave. to 39th St., where it turned left (WB) to go to Madison Ave. for its remaining NB trip. Weekends its south terminal was 8th St.-4th Ave. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Wed Jun 14 18:11:55 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Wed Jun 14 16:32:46 2017. That stands to reason: At what point was the ex-NYCO #2 so truncated, if it went to City Hall via the Bowery south of East 4th as of '63? Ditto for the #1's south end rerouted to South Ferry weekdays and 8th Street-4th Avenue weekends. Would all this have been tied to the 1966 service changes brought about by the 5th and Madison one-way conversions? |
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Posted by northshore on Thu Jun 15 14:40:57 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Wed Jun 14 16:32:46 2017. MaBSTOA M1 ran south on Fifth Av, turned left on 40 St, right. on Park Av South |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 17 17:57:07 2017, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Mar 1 08:56:29 2017. I can also confirm from reading New York Times articles about the TWU strike against FACL, that besides the M-105 and FACCo 1, March 1 was also the last day for FACCo 19 - Fifth Avenue/Riverside Drive and NYCO 22 - Pitt and Ridge Streets. The Times articles about which lines were out due to the strike also mentioned NYCO 3 - Lexington Avenue and 4 - Lexington and Lenox Avenues, both of which had been discontinued in 1960 with the one-way conversions of Lexington and Third Avenues (and the M-101's southbound route moved to Lexington between 125th and 23rd Streets - again, no Third/Lexington/Lenox route at this juncture, until 1969). The rationale behind the demise of FACCo 19 as well as 1, besides FACL's "perpetuity" argument, was that both lines were considered "inactive" by the company at that point. (So, apparently, were the two lines not hamstrung by "perpetuity" issues, NYCO 22 and ST M-105.)Technically, at the time of the strike FACL had two divisions: the Fifth Avenue Coach Division (10 lines) and Omnibus Division (19 lines, all former New York City Omnibus), while wholly-owned subsidiary ST had six lines in Manhattan. The Times coverage also suggests that at least limited service on ex-FACCo's 15, 16 and 20 resumed on March 28, and 3, 4 and 5 came back in such capacity March 29, although all six were full-service by March 30. (Curiously, The Times referred to 3 as only applying to the Fifth-Convent line while designating the Fifth-St. Nicholas route as 3A.) 2 and 6, of course, returned to service July 1. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jun 17 21:10:50 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 17 17:57:07 2017. Regarding FACCO 19, it must have been revived as a branch of the 5, because M5 buses via 158th Street are shown on my 1976 Manhattan Bus Map. I don't have it handy right now, so I don't know what the frequency was. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Jun 17 21:36:55 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jun 17 21:10:50 2017. After MABSTOA takeover, Rt 19 was renumbered Rt 5. It ran rush hours only. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Jun 17 21:42:24 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 17 17:57:07 2017. After a long legal battle the court finally ruled that only FACCO Rt 1 was held in perpetuity by FACCO and could not be legally run bu MABSTOA. |
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Posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 18 01:37:15 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Sat Jun 17 21:42:24 2017. Ah, but how do you explain FACCo Rt. 19's demise? In any event, "perpetuity" issues weren't what led to NYCO Rt. 22 and Surface Transit Rt. M-105's demise . . . |
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Posted by northshore on Sun Jun 18 09:54:11 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 18 01:37:15 2017. Route 19 was reduced to rush hour only service in 1942 at the Federal ODT during WW II. Renumbered 5 by MABSTOA, was discontinued by MABSTOA in the 1980's due to low ridership. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 18 19:13:07 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Mon Mar 6 20:51:01 2017. Here may be part of why Wikipedia would assume why the NYCO and FACCo 2's would have been "combined" into some "hybrid": A passage about the detailed changes to various Fifth and Madison routes buried within page 21 ("Continued From Page 1") of an article, "Barnes Suggests Express Bus Runs," in the Jan. 17, 1966 New York Times (about Traffic Commissioner Henry Barnes suggesting the introduction of express bus service along Fifth and Madison with the said one-way conversions). I quote verbatim, and you tell us whether this makes sense or not (underlines mine, for emphasis):"ROUTE NO. 2 "The designation is changed from '168th Street-Edgecombe Avenue-Washington Square' to 'Fifth and Madison Avenues via Seventh and Lenox Avenues.' Southbound the only change will be that the buses will join Lenox Avenue at West 147th Street and turn east on 116th Street to Fifth Avenue for the straight run south. The buses will turn east on Eighth Street for a final stop just east of Fifth Avenue, then continue east to Astor Place for the turnaround. "Northbound, they will form up at East Ninth Street and Fourth Avenue, go west on Ninth, north on University Place, east on 14th Street, then north on Union Square East and Park Avenue South to 25th Street. There they will turn west to Madison Avenue, then north on Madison to 110th Street. The main route then goes west to Seventh Avenue and north to the West 115th[sic - should be 155th] Street viaduct, joining Edgecombe Avenue to continue north to 167th Street and the turnaround at 168th and Broadway. "Some No. 2 buses will continue north on Madison to 116th Street, then west to Lenox Avenue and north on the avenue to 147th Street. Others will start north on Fourth Avenue from Ninth Street and rejoin the main route at Union Square East." No comment about "Some southbound Route 2 buses will originate from 168th and Broadway, then join Edgecombe Avenue before going east on the West 155th Street viaduct, then south on Seventh Avenue, east on 110th Street, and south on Fifth to Eighth Street . . . "? Also, would ex-FACCo 2 have gone north through University Place up to 14th, and ex-NYCO 2 straight on Fourth Avenue to 14th? That whole excerpt seems to raise more questions than it answers. And it did not account for ex-FACCo 2 being rebranded 2A at the time. Nor did it distinguish the routes, with NYCO 2's northbound and FACCo 2(A)'s southbound route being unchanged. They also didn't mention about "Route No. 6" '72nd Street Crosstown's' northbound stretch between 57th and 72nd Streets along its eastbound path to 72nd Street-York Avenue, being moved to Madison Avenue; nor was there any indication of whether "Route No. 7" 'Broadway, Columbus and Lenox Avenues' had its extension to 14th Street-Union Square on or before that 1966 day, given that the last remaining unconverted stretch of Broadway - between Madison Square and Union Square - went one-way southbound, thus now all of Broadway south of Columbus Circle was southbound. The Times, alas, did not (to the best of my knowledge) write about the TA and MaBSTOA's reclassification of ex-NYCO 2 as Third-Lexington-Lenox 101A prior to that 1969 changeover. |
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Posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 25 14:32:43 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jun 17 21:10:50 2017. The resumption of the path of the old FACCo 19 under the M5 heading must've taken root in or before 1974. The Riverside to 157th variant wasn't on the 1969 Manhattan bus map but was on the 1974 map as well as the 1976. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Sun Jun 25 15:26:07 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 25 14:32:43 2017. FACCO Rt 19 (aka MABSTOA 5) resumed shortly after the 1962 takeover, as did the other FACCO lines. |
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Posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 25 21:25:25 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Sun Jun 25 15:26:07 2017. Must've been on and off. Because I saw no evidence of that route in the 1969 Manhattan bus map. If MaBSTOA did resume that route variant, it was as absorbed into FACCo 5. The 19 numeration itself all but disappeared during the strike that led to the takeover. |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 00:38:08 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 25 21:25:25 2017. There were only a few handful of rush hour trips. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 00:47:59 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Sun Jun 25 21:25:25 2017. Another FACCO route that does not appear on maps is Rt 10 Broadway.It ran as a tripper from 135 St (Mannhattanville Depot) to 193 St, Fort George (or visa versa).It had no particular schedule, but only ran when a bus was "deadheading" to or from Fort George for Rt 3 service.It was in early MABSTOA roll signs, including the wing fishbowls. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jun 26 14:59:14 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 00:47:59 2017. "Early" as in up to 1973, where blue background signs with borough prefix add-ons list an 'M10 - Broadway'? I could've sworn, despite that old FACCo route, that that would have been reference to M10's that terminated north at Columbus Circle or near Lincoln Center, rather than at 159th Street. (Keeping in mind its SB route, in those days, turning west at Central Park West to 63rd Street and then south on Broadway up to Times Square.) Or in other words, an alternate to the 8th Avenue-Central Park West designation. If the FACCo 10 was still in operation in early MaBSTOA years, when would that "deadheading" service have officially been discontinued? Since there was a gap in the 1974 renumbering between M32 (ex-QM15 - Fifth-Madison-Queensboro Bridge-Jackson Heights) and M34 (ex-branch of TB that ran between Manhattan and Wards and Randalls Islands), would that, had it existed at that point, have to be renumbered 'M33' or something? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:58:40 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 00:47:59 2017. I wonder why run on/run off trips would need a separate number. Couldn’t such trips merely use the number of the route they are running on to? In the subway, the AM J put ins from ENY Yd that operate in service from Bway Jct to Jamaica operate as Js without a separate letter. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 18:22:24 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 26 15:58:40 2017. The 10 was a combination of FACCO routes 3 and 4 or 5. It may have led to confusion to passenger where the bus was going without a different designation. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 18:27:48 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Mon Jun 26 14:59:14 2017. You are mixing the original NYCO rt 19 (now M10) with FACCO Rt 10. They are apples and oranges. FACCO Rt 10 ran north of 135 St. It was a rather informal route (except for the roll signs). I do not know when it was phased out.I dont know if it made into the blue roll sign era. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jun 26 20:31:33 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 18:27:48 2017. If you check out this link . . .https://picclick.com/Vintage-Collectible-Complete-New-York-City-Ny-Bus-401313192511.html . . . apparently the ex-FACCo Broadway "M10," informal though it may have been, did last up to the blue roll sign era, seen right below the ex-NYCO 8th Avenue/Central Park West "M10." Unless, on that blue roll sign, there was a shorter version of the Eighth Avenue M10 that terminated at Columbus Circle rather than 159th Street, therefore its southbound path north of Times Square was more or less commenced on the same thoroughfare (albeit way down) . . . |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jun 26 20:38:40 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 18:27:48 2017. Oh, and the image . . .
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 22:48:10 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Mon Jun 26 20:38:40 2017. WOW!!! The Holy Grail!!! I never saw this before. You hit the nail on the head. I am sure this was for FACCO Rt 10 (now designated M10). Great Find! You made my day. Thank you!!! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jun 27 00:37:46 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 22:48:10 2017. This is why I asked whether or not, if this was indeed ex-FACCo (M)10, assuming it survived into the route numbering changes of 1974, what number that route was reassigned. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Jun 27 09:47:45 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by W.B. on Tue Jun 27 00:37:46 2017. I wonder if it survived into the digital age or if it still exists? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jun 27 14:13:23 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Tue Jun 27 09:47:45 2017. If it did last to 1974, I'm betting it would've been ixnayed in '76 or so. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 27 15:47:14 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by northshore on Mon Jun 26 18:22:24 2017. Why would it cause any confusion? When pulling on to the route it would carry the terminal destination of the route it would be pulling on to and when running off the route, it would be on the normal route for most of its trip with the destination set at 135 St. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Sep 14 12:54:57 2017, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for March 1, posted by andy on Wed Jun 14 16:32:46 2017. I checked the April 1968 dispatchers' map for Manhattan that showed the MaBSTOA and TA routes as they stood then, as on display at the Transit Museum. From what I could follow, north of 9th and Fourth, only 2A and 3 went west on 9th, north on University Place, and east on 14th to Union Square East (those were the only route numbers highlighted within that path on said map); while 2, being a variant of 1 with different WB transition points, would have travelled straight north on Fourth Avenue to 14th.I think it would've been at the time of the Fifth and Madison one-way conversions of '66 that 1's southern terminus became South Ferry - and on weekends, when terminating at 8th Street-Fourth Avenue, they used the same route - south on Broadway, east on 4th Street and north on Fourth Avenue to 8th Street - as 2 had prior to said conversions. |
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