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GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017 I am no expert on Bergen County transportation history, so much of this thread will be told through links to the NY Times. I will summarize each link. Your amplifications and corrections are appreciated.--- The George Washington Bridge was dedicated on October 24, 1931, and opened to traffic the following day, Sunday, October 25th. The New York Times on 10.21.1931 reported that the Hackensack Motor Coach Company had received a franchise from the Fort Lee Common Council to begin operation on Sunday morning from Fort Lee across the bridge, with a fare of 5 cents. Link --- Mom and her mother were living on West 169th Street near Audubon Avenue at the time. Mom was in her first year of teaching Grade 4B in Inwood. She told us how she with go with friends on walks across the bridge, but they would turn around before paying the ten-cent pedestrian toll at the New Jersey end. Maybe the other walkway had the pedestrian toll collected at the New York end. -- Joe |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Mon May 22 10:35:56 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. I am much puzzled by this photo from the New York Public Library Digital Collection. I shows the southeast corner of St. Nicholas Avenue and West 167th Street. There is an entrance to the 8th Avenue Subway, which opened eleven months after the bridge opened. Signs indicate "Garden State Terminal. Buses to New Jersey." The lower photo shows three buses, Macks my guess. There is no indication of buses or routes. The photos can be enlarged several times.Link |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by randyo on Tue May 23 15:40:07 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Mon May 22 10:35:56 2017. I would suspect that the early bus terminal was placed near the 168 St station due to the availability of 3 subway lines, the A, AA and Bway IRT all of which were at that location. Assuming there would have been any space available closer to the GWB at the time, there would have been access to only one of those 3 subway lines, the A. Of course the opening of the GWB bus terminal took away this convenience, but it had that added effect of removing the buses from the streets of Wash Hts which often proved to be a hazard for local residents. |
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Posted by Joe on Tue May 23 18:02:57 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. The Brooklyn Daily Eagle of October 23, 1931, ran a lengthy article on page 23, linked below, on the opening of the bridge. The bus service is explained with the five-cent fare, but the writer notes also that the bus toll is an even dollar, requiring 20 passengers for the bus company to break even.Link --- On October 25, 1931, page 80, the New York Times ran several articles and a map about the development of Bergen County. The article about bus service says that passengers will be brought to the 181st Street subway station "at Broadway," although the Interborough station is another block east at St. Nicholas Avenue. The Eighth Avenue subway opened the following year, September 10, 1932. Link --- The map on the same page shows railroads well. NJ State Highway 4 is not complete west of Grand Avenue and the Erie's Northern Branch. |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed May 24 09:59:27 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Tue May 23 18:02:57 2017. Great map. Very interesting. |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Wed May 24 12:11:08 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by randyo on Tue May 23 15:40:07 2017. When the George Washington Bridge opened in October, 1931, the Hackensack Motor Coaches apparently went to the Interborough at West 181st Street. When the Eighth Avenue Subway opened the following September, there was motivation to buy or rent lots for terminals near 168th and Broadway. I'm not finding much info as I search the archives of the Times, but the complaints about congestion that show up concern Seventh Avenue. On 12.7.1934, page 8, the Times ran a story about the Northeastern Interstate Bus Owners Association objecting to a police order (to be effective December 17) forbidding them to pick up or discharge passengers along Seventh Avenue. According to the Times, the police order provides that the buses should use the West Side Elevated Highway between Canal Street and 51st Street!Link --- Surprisingly, by July of 1940 the feisty mayor and the Port Authority were already talking of building a terminal west of 8th Avenue. --- Now we have Hampton Jitney boarding curbside along Lexington Avenue, Megabus on wind-swept West 34th Street, and others around 36th & 7th or 34th & 9th. No waiting rooms, no rest rooms before boarding. |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu May 25 11:08:22 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Tue May 23 18:02:57 2017. The NY Times article is only for subscribers. The Brooklyn Eagle page, with the article and accompanying photo, comes up nicely. Hard to imagine that they ever allowed horse-drawn vehicles on the GWB!Under the photo of the squad of 84 bridge policemen "rehearsing" is a an article on a very different subject, with a headline that no one would ever dare to print today: "Too Many Survivors; Human Race Weaker" |
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Posted by Joe on Fri May 26 20:43:46 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. I thought I'd present a chronological narrative of GW Bridge buses in the early years, but I am having difficulty finding information. Therefore, I would like to offer three excellent photos of the Public Service Terminal in Washington Heights, offered by Brian Cudahy, who gave the location as West 168th Street. The year is circa 1954-1955.--- In the next photo, the fire alarm box and fire hydrant would seem to indicate that the three Public Service loading lanes are on the northeast corner. Note the bank, spaghetti house, and bar, typical of our city in the 1950's. They are probably on the east side of St. Nicholas Avenue. --- In the next photo, the route of this bus cannot be seen. However, the design of the upper corners of the apartment house windows above the tailor shop causes me to think that this terminal was on the north side of West 167th Street, running the short block from Audubon Avenue to St. Nicholas Avenue. Joe McMahon |
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Posted by Joe on Fri May 26 21:46:29 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. Let's see if this link works, as I have trouble with links to Pinterest. This view looks south on St. Nicholas Avenue and Broadway. Two bus terminals can be seen on the east side of St. Nicholas Avenue at West 167th Street. Hidden next to the tall bank is the Public Service terminal. On the southeast corner can be seen a bus lot, presumably the one that in previous years carried the name Garden State Bus Terminal. I judge this photo to be about 1940-1945. One of the Jersey buses will soon be replaced with a newer purchase. Corrections, comments are welcome.Link if it works: |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat May 27 03:33:01 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Fri May 26 20:43:46 2017. Very nice photos. The 82 and 86 still exist today as NJT 182 and 186. The 84 went to Red and Tan for many years and is now on life support with Saddle River Tours. |
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Posted by Joe on Sat May 27 08:03:07 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat May 27 03:33:01 2017. @JohnnyMints: Many thanks for describing what happened to the 82, 84 and 86 in recent years.--- The link below is to a Getty photo apparently taken from Lemoine Ave. looking at the bus stop and the toll booths. The bus stop is marked as a Bus Stop. The bus carries two spare tires! I note that the toll booths have double lanes, so some tolls are collected from the passenger side, as shown also in early photos of the Ben Franklin Bridge tolls. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat May 27 21:11:10 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Fri May 26 20:43:46 2017. The bank, spaghetti house and bar are on the east side of St Nicholas Ave. The bar was I(and may still be) on the S/E corner of St Nick and 168 St. The bank during my years there, was the Chemical Corn Exchange Bank where my mother kept her safe deposit box. The PSCT bus terminal was in the short block between St Nick and Audubon Aves. Across the street on the south side of 167 St were the terminals for both Inter City and Rockland Coaches (Red and Tan). Within that terminal there was a White Tower hamburger stand which if I recall was open all night. |
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Posted by Joe on Sun May 28 00:50:57 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by randyo on Sat May 27 21:11:10 2017. @RandyoMany thanks for your mention of the White Tower, which appears in this NYC parks photo. Would you care to estimate the date of the photo? An older photo shows the old Picadilly railroad-car-style diner in that spot with buses behind it.The age of the bus traveling north on St. Nicholas might be a clue to the date, but I don't know bus models well. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 28 01:13:40 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sun May 28 00:50:57 2017. Tha diner really doesn’t look much like a RR style and seems to be the structure that housed the White Tower as I remember it. The only type of bus in the photo that I recall is the 5 Av double decker. |
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Posted by Joe on Sun May 28 12:55:57 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. On Sunday, October 25, 1931, the New York Times printed an extensive article on the GW Bridge dedication ceremonies the previous day. Included were clear maps showing the required traffic patterns on each shore.In Manhattan, traffic from the 181st Bridge was shifted to 182nd Street to Broadway, south on Broadway to 181st Street, west to Fort Washington Avenue, south to 179th Street and enter the bridge near Northern Avenue (now Cabrini Blvd). All intersections were at grade. The only grade separation was on the climb from Riverside Drive under the bridge, then east on 179th Street to the bridge entrance near Northern Avenue. --- Traffic northbound from the streets of Manhattan was diverted to either St. Nicholas Avenue or Wadsworth Avenue, then left on 179th St. to the bridge. No left turns were allowed from northbound Broadway. --- Traffic from New Jersey heading to Riverside Drive made a sharp u-turn onto 178th Street, but most traffic was sent east on 178th Street to southbound Fort Washington Avenue or Broadway.The 178th Street tunnel was not constructed until 1940 and now remains out of service. --- Nowadays, there are several examples of heavily-trafficked bridges similarly dumping the vehicles on the grid of Manhattan Streets. I did not like the construction of the Cross-Bronx Expressway, but I can understand how the Alexander Hamilton Bridge and the Cross-Bronx relieved Washington Heights of some of the volume coming off the GW Bridge. And the George Washington Bus Station gives more relief. --- In Fort Lee, grade-separation was accomplished from opening day. Hudson Terrace passed under the Bridge and had its own toll booths. Lemoine Avenue and five other Fort Lee streets were grade-separated from the bridge traffic. Maybe in 1931, the Port Authority already had bad experience with the level intersections and traffic signals along 12th Street and 14th Street in Jersey City, near the Holland Tunnel. --- Link for Times subscribers |
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Posted by Joe on Tue May 30 21:11:58 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. The link below is a 1934 photo apparently taken from the top floor of a building on Fort Washington Avenue. The GW Bridge has already been open for three years, and oil drips mar the roadways. The roofs of two buses can be seen in the lower right, where I believe a passenger shelter was built about that year. By 1940 the center area would include a dip and curve into the 178th Street tunnel. Each few years this plaza arrangement would see modifications. The center two lanes of the bridge would not be paved until 1946. At the right, a police booth can be seen where westbound traffic off 179th Street would face a merge with traffic moving up from Riverside Drive. On dedication day, 88 traffic policeman demonstrated their arm signals in unison.--- Link |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed May 31 17:22:52 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Tue May 30 21:11:58 2017. 
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Wed May 31 20:07:37 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Bill Newkirk on Wed May 31 17:22:52 2017. Thanks, Bill, for embedding that photo looking west to the bridge.--- On the far right, one can see a hairpin turn, the route of cars coming north on Riverside Drive, then making a sharp right turn to gain the entrance near the police booth. Three years of oil drips show the route. A striped board keeps the cars from hugging the curb on the final u-turn. Oil drips also show two lanes from Fort Washington Avenue, but on the eastbound side, the stains quickly move off the plaza. Someplace I found a photo of this plaza facing east, and I'll paste a link when I find it again. --- Years ago, the words "Hairpin turn" were often used, and even before the GW opened, there were complaints about the hairpin from Riverside Drive shown above. --- In the late 1940's, we would board the 125th Street Ferry and hike the sidewalk to Palisades Amusement Park rather than pay bus fare. I recall the hairpin turn on that road, NJ 5 perhaps. |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Thu Jun 1 16:50:37 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Wed May 31 20:07:37 2017. If I succeed in linking the photo, it looks east from the bridge to two buildings on Fort Washington Avenue. West 179th Street is at the left, West 178 at the east. Years later, the dip in the center would lead to the two tunnels that now flank I-95 and are used for storage. A few years ago, I bought James Renner's Arcadia book, "Washington Heights, Inwood, and Marble Hill." Using a magnifying glass I could see the route number 82 on the nearest bus.--- A year or two later, a westbound bus stop was added to the plaza. --- The Port Authority demolished three square blocks of large apartment houses, some only seven or eight years old, west from Fort Washington Avenue to Riverside Drive. The Authority also began to buy properties between Fort Washington Avenue and Broadway, but gave up on that clearance. I understand the two buildings in the center lasted until about 1960 and the construction of the George Washington Bridge Bus Station. Link to 1933 photo on Google If you have trouble seeing the photo, you may email me at cjmcmann@msn.com |
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Re: GW Bridge buses in early years |
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Posted by Joe on Sat Jun 3 20:43:01 2017, in response to GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sat May 20 18:55:54 2017. The GW Bridge was open only a year and a half by the time the Port Authority asked for bids on the construction of waiting stations with shelters, one at Fort Lee, one on Washington Heights. The N. Y. Times of May 24, 1933, ran a story under these headlines: Washington Span to Have 2 Stations; Port Authority opens bids for bus passenger shelters to be ready July 15.The New York shelter would measure 37 by 17 feet and be located on the sidewalk space in the center of the plaza between Fort Washington Avenue and [interrupted] Pinehurst Avenue. That is, passengers would walk across 179th Street to get to the shelter in the plaza. As westbound bridge traffic, including buses, have already swerved to reach the plaza, I presume that traffic on 179th Street there would be minimal. --- The Fort Lee shelter would measure 18 feet square and be east of Hudson Street. It may be the small building shown in the Getty Images photo I linked in my May 27th post. --- The Times article said that 96,665 bus passengers were carried between Fort Lee and Manhattan in the first four months of 1933. That appears to be 800 daily, or perhaps 400 each direction. Please recall that this is during a Depression. Link for subscribers of NY Times: |
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Posted by Joe on Mon Jun 5 14:00:46 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Thu Jun 1 16:50:37 2017. Let's look at two lists of bus companies declaring or receiving fare increases between Bergen County and Washington Heights. The New York Times of February 19, 1934, lists these bus operators raising fares, mostly by five cents:Public Service Co-ordinated Transport Hill Bus Company Rockland Coach Company Spring Valley Bus Company Washington Bridge Express Line --- Missing is Hackensack Motor Coach, which news stories at opening day described as being authorized to collect five cents between Fort Lee and Manhattan. The Brooklyn Eagle remarked that the bus toll was $1, so the firm would need twenty passengers just to pay the toll. I suspect that Hackensack Motor Coach was either a subsidiary of PSCT or soon bought by PSCT, and became Route 82, listed as starting service in 1931. --- The New York Times of January 12, 1938, page 35, explains that the Interstate Commerce Commission approved fare increases (effective the previous July) across the bridge for these firms: Garden State Inter-City Transportation Jersey Bus Lines Manhattan Coach Lines Public Service Interstate Transportation Rockland Coaches Rockland Transit Spring Valley Motor Coach Suburban Bus Lines Washington Bridge Express Lines Westwood Transportation Westwood Transportation Lines. --- For me the puzzle on both these lists is Washington Bridge Express Lines. --- |
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Posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 12:10:27 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Mon Jun 5 14:00:46 2017. Sometimes I must post a Great Find, even though it is not exactly on topic. Otherwise, I could lose the link.--- The photo below from the municipal archives looks west over the Harlem River to the George Washington Bridge. Important for me in this photo is the not-yet-in-use 178th Street tunnel emerging from under Amsterdam Avenue and looping south to an intersection at wide 175th Street. For almost a decade, the ramp and tunnel were two-way. The ramp now serves as an exit from I-95 north. The photo is not dated, but the streetcar on Amsterdam Avenue is older than the home-built modern cars of the 1930's. It has the shape of a convertible. Wikipedia says that the 178th Street vehicular tunnel was built in 1940, but the age of the streetcar makes me think the photo is perhaps a year or two year earlier. Link: |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 11 17:44:57 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 12:10:27 2017. I seem to recall seeing the 178 St tunnel being built when I visited my doctor on 178 St and that was about 1950. |
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Posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 19:45:27 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 11 17:44:57 2017. There is a chance that you saw the construction of the 179th Street tunnel.Wikipedia: After the end of World War II, New York public works baron Robert Moses started work on a bypass in Manhattan of the Washington Heights area to serve the George Washington Bridge. Originally, only the 178th Street Tunnel existed, being constructed in 1940 and serving both directions. Construction began on the 179th Street Tunnel in March 1949 and was completed over two years later. At that time, the 178th Street Tunnel was reconfigured to serve eastbound traffic only, while the 179th served the westbound. --- Of course, Wikipedia can be wrong. I drove through an eastbound tube about 1959 or 1960 just to explore it.Because I knew upper Manhattan pretty well, I was not taken aback when it put me on West 175 Street, where my parents had lived about 1935. --- Thanks for your comments, always informative. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 12 16:06:53 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 19:45:27 2017. Even though I was born and raised in that neighborhood, I wasn’t aware that there were 2 separate tunnels. The only time I ever went through the tunnel eastbound was when the family was coming back from Jersey over the GWB and we came out at 175 and Amsterdam. That would mean as you said that what I probably saw was the 179 St tunnel being built. As an aside and probably belonging on Subchat as well, since there are rumors of a connection from the IND subway to the GWB being partially built from the N/E of 174 St Yd as far as the entrance to the GWB, I wonder if the construction of either of those tunnels might have destroyed any evidence of such a connection if it had ever been built at all. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 12 18:00:54 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 19:45:27 2017. Did they build direct ramps to the Washington (Heights) Bridge at some point or do those ramps date only to the completion of the Trans-Manhattan Expressway? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jun 13 10:20:22 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Joe on Sun Jun 11 12:10:27 2017. What the heck are those buildings in the park between 179th and 180th? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jun 13 10:29:12 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 12 18:00:54 2017. Yes, there were ramps from the Washington Bridge to the tunnels. I used to ride over them and through the tunnels going to and from day camp in the summers of (I think) 1958 and 1959. They were the same ramps that are used today to and from the Trans-Manhattan Expressway. (The eastbound ramp was rebuilt a few years ago, but is basically the same.) |
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Posted by Joe on Tue Jun 13 10:47:45 2017, in response to Re: GW Bridge buses in early years, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jun 12 18:00:54 2017. @spider-pig"Did they build direct ramps to the Washington (Heights) Bridge at some point or do those ramps date only to the completion of the Trans-Manhattan Expressway?" --- That's a good question, as it led me to more investigations. Thank you. According to Wikipedia, the Washington Bridge (the 181st Street bridge connecting Manhattan and The Bronx) opened in 1889. The George Washington Bridge (connecting Manhattan and New Jersey) opened in 1931. The Alexander Hamilton Bridge (carrying I-95) opened in 1963. --- Quoting from Wikipedia's article on Washington Bridge: "After completion of the George Washington Bridge in 1931, traffic off the bridge into the Bronx traveled over the Washington Bridge. Starting in the 1940s, ramps were built to connect the western end of the bridge to the 178th Street and 179th Street Tunnels leading to the George Washington Bridge. This allowed traffic to and from New Jersey to bypass the congested local streets of Upper Manhattan." --- On the NYC Map Site, the aerial maps have a few long gaps in chronology. The 1951 aerial clearly shows the westbound curving exit from the Washington Bridge to the 179th Street tunnel. Less clear in the photo is the eastbound route curving up in a swooping S from the 178th Street tunnel to enter the right lane of Washington Bridge. Both those ramps from the 1940's seem to be part of the I-95 westbound entrance and eastbound exit nowadays. --- Answering your question: The ramps predate the 1963 opening of the Trans-Manhattan Expressway by 13 or more years. --- The N.Y. Times of 4.22.1950 reports that the Port Authority is restricting the 178th Street tunnel on Sunday evenings because of the excessive eastbound traffic coming off the George Washington Bridge. The 179th Street tunnel is still under construction. Other than on Sunday evenings, the 178th Street tunnel will handle one lane in each direction. I presume that commercial vehicles are not allowed, but I cannot find proof. Later, there are references to inadequate ventilation in the tunnels. |
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