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| The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives (307630) | |
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The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Oct 6 19:53:39 2015 I wonder how those who oppose reducing speed limits and post here will react to the overwhelming amount of evidence and data that slowing down cars is beneficial to society as a whole...CLICK HERE |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Oct 7 08:55:42 2015, in response to The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Oct 6 19:53:39 2015. I don't oppose the slower traffic, except in that corridors like Fordham Rd and other examples in NY are choked by the bus lanes so that no one can get close to 25 MPH. What I don't like is that jaywalkers get a free pass at motorist's expense. I remember those cross at the green and not in between commercials in the 70s and the police that frowned at pedestrians crossing mid block and against red lights and that made a difference. You can throw your self via foot into traffic at driver's full monetary expense, including possible jail time for the driver. Its not a fair playing field where motorists, bikes and pedestrians can co-exist, NYC Department of Finance ends up winners every time |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by NJT Oradell on Wed Oct 7 09:43:33 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Oct 7 08:55:42 2015. So, if all that statistical crap is really accurate then just govern motor vehicles to go no faster than walking speed and your problem is solved. Obviously, the speed/safety debate is, as it always has been, an issue with many sides. Current law is a compromise between safety and speed. Many politicians are reluctant to tell motorists that they may find themselves needing more time to get hither, thither and yon tomorrow than today.Proposals to slow traffic down would be a further compromise to what many motorists consider Big Brotherism NOW! To even suggest they will have to slow down causes fear and anger. Of course, take the motorist out of his vehicle and make him a pedestrian and his attitude changes immediately and remarkably because the only safe driver on the road is him. So slow everyone else down but leave him alone. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Oct 7 10:16:19 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by NJT Oradell on Wed Oct 7 09:43:33 2015. Current law is a compromise between safety and speed.The kind of "compromise" where no attention whatever is paid to one of the sides (safety), yeah. Many politicians are reluctant to tell motorists that they may find themselves needing more time to get hither, thither and yon tomorrow than today. Because they know that many of their car-driving constituents are selfish babies. Proposals to slow traffic down would be a further compromise to what many motorists consider Big Brotherism NOW! To even suggest they will have to slow down causes fear and anger. Of course, take the motorist out of his vehicle and make him a pedestrian and his attitude changes immediately and remarkably because the only safe driver on the road is him. So slow everyone else down but leave him alone. EXACTLY. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Oct 7 11:41:53 2015, in response to The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Oct 6 19:53:39 2015. How about the economic detriments from taking longer to get anything done - chores, deliveries, time wasted on the road instead of in productive pursuits? Safety vs. speed is always a trade-off - any particular speed limits are always arbitrary. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Oct 9 11:53:10 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by NJT Oradell on Wed Oct 7 09:43:33 2015. That's exactly what it is "statistical crap". The question to really ask is what were the motives of the authors of the study going into this project? Did they set out to prove a redesign of the roadway would be advantageous or were they truly objective?In virtually any study, the authors know exactly what they want to prove then collect their data to support their conclusions. This is probably no different. We don't know how the model was designed or if its predictions of only three minutes lost are accurate. They state that most drivers currently ignore the 25 mph speed limit. Perhaps that speed is unrealistically too slow which is why they ignore it. Now I am not saying that what they are proposing won't work. The only way to find out is to try it for three or six months, or perhaps a year if there are seasonal fluctuations in roadway use, carefully collecting data before and after. In this case, that would be a good idea since only the painting of lines is involved, not a large capital expense, unless a good case can be made why their proposal would not work. Then if it causes delays like ten or fifteen minutes, not three, ithe changes need to be reconsidered and possibly undone. But that is not what would happen. If there was only one fewer injury or death even if it had nothing to do with the redesign, there are those who would suggest that saving one life a year is worth the added inconvenience of thousands of motorists losing 15 minutes each day and the negative effects to the economy. That is why there has to be clear criteria set as to under which conditions the trial changes would be allowed to remain before any construction is started and that has to e adhered to. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Oct 9 12:29:11 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Oct 7 08:55:42 2015. Agreed. Pedestrians play a big role in making Vision Zero work. One way is to now ban the use of any electronic device - - with or without headphones while crossing any street. Second is the jaywalking issue. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 9 12:39:36 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Oct 9 12:29:11 2015. I don’t agree with your proposal. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Fri Oct 9 14:53:13 2015, in response to The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Oct 6 19:53:39 2015. Some of the worst looking wrecks I see are in the mysterious 25mph - 35 mph residential zones. Those are always a mystery to me.Furthermore, all slower speed limits seem to do is create more conflicts with the 10% of the population that don't make up their own rules, and the other 90% of the retards who don't honestly value anybodies life, including their own. The safest speed seems to be where they go at the 85% averages for consistent traffic flows than some arbitrary limits that democrats don't want to follow. Obama supports will honk, flash lights, and even drive up on sidewalks if you dare do the speed limit. Even if you're in the right lane of a 20 lane road. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Oct 9 19:27:47 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by orange blossom special on Fri Oct 9 14:53:13 2015. Why do you make every effing thing political? |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Oct 9 20:29:35 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by italianstallion on Fri Oct 9 19:27:47 2015. That's all he ever does. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Oct 9 22:14:53 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Oct 9 11:53:10 2015. The question to really ask is what were the motives of the authors of the study going into this project?The first paper establishing the statistical relation between pedestrian deaths and severe injuries to vehicle impact speed was written by S. J. Ashton. It was presented at a Society of Automotive Engineers conference in 1980. The author's expressed motive was to spur automobile redesign to make such collisions less deadly. Ashton's model for this motive was the then previous 15 year history since the publication of Nader's "Unsafe at any Speed," that made automobile interiors much safer. The study's conclusions have since been corroborated by many other studies, world wide. One of the more recent studies was one by the AAA Traffic Safety Foundation in 2011. It's the study most frequently referenced because the AAA's political agenda is pro-automobile use. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Oct 11 17:29:10 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Oct 9 22:14:53 2015. There is a big difference between designing safer automobiles to reduce injuries and deaths (No one would be against that except possibly automobile makers because it might increase costs.) and redesigning streets to slow speeds unreasonably causing increased traffic congestion and air pollution and having serious economic impacts.There is no justification at all for work zone speed limits to be in effect for 1,000 feet after the work zone ends. You should be able to resume the normal speed limit at te end of the work zone. Signs also should not be put up months before work begins and not removed for months or years after work is completed. I remember one forgotten about work zone speed sign on te BQE above Park Avenue that was not removed for three years! Also, there are work zones that begin and never end. I have also seen End of Work Zone signs when there was never a Begin Work Zone sign. On the Belt Parkway there is one work zone speed zone sign of 30 mph when you can do 50 mph without any problem and another with a limit of 40 mph when if you are in the right lane and try to do 40, you wil end up in the center lane. The limit needs to be 30 mph. All this is inexcusable and the reason virtually all motorists don't take these signs seriously and that leads to accidents. There are many things we can do to improve safety without ridiculously low speed limits and inappropriate speed limits. The other day I drove on the very narrow Summit Street. The speed limit is 25 mph, but in my opinion it is not safe to go faster than 10 mph. We need peed limits that make sense, not a ridiculous default speed of 25 mph, especially for needed arterials. Also, I have never heard the AAA speak against mass transit to promote automobile use. What they have stood up for are measures that make driving more difficult or expensive. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 11 22:17:59 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Oct 11 17:29:10 2015. There is a big difference between designing safer automobiles to reduce injuries and deaths (No one would be against that except possibly automobile makers because it might increase costs.)The problem is they have not done anything to make cars safer for pedestrians in 35 years. They are not likely to do anything in the next 35 years either. The only remaining option to make cars safer for pedestrians it to reduce vehicle-pedestrian impact speed. redesigning streets to slow speeds Most drivers don't respect speed limits. It's simple to rig a speed limit alarm on the speedometer. None of the car manufacturers has installed such alarms. Drivers have objected to automatic devices to record speed limit or red light violations. The only means left to reduce impact speed is to design the roads. One such strategy is to reduce lane width. The other day I drove on the very narrow Summit Street. The speed limit is 25 mph, but in my opinion it is not safe to go faster than 10 mph. It appears this strategy works. We need [s]peed limits that make sense, not a ridiculous default speed of 25 mph, especially for needed arterials. Again, the speed limit is set to reduce pedestrian deaths and serious injuries. The automobile manufacturers have refused to redesign their vehicles to accomplish this at higher impact speeds. I have never heard the AAA speak against mass transit to promote automobile use. The AAA has lobbied against diverting road tolls and gas taxes to support mass transit. You may recall the AAA recently opposed the latest increase of PANYNJ tolls in court. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 11 23:06:06 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Oct 9 11:53:10 2015. That's exactly what it is "statistical crap".If you know so much then why were you fired? |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by merrick1 on Mon Oct 12 09:46:54 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 11 22:17:59 2015. The problem is they have not done anything to make cars safer for pedestrians in 35 years. They are not likely to do anything in the next 35 years either.They have done some things |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Oct 12 09:54:08 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by merrick1 on Mon Oct 12 09:46:54 2015. And one thing that article makes clear is that taking steps toward greater safety for pedestrians is something that some, but far from all, automakers take seriously.Many of these things should be the subject of regulation, but aren't. That's telling in itself. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 12 13:04:22 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Oct 11 22:17:59 2015. Most drivers don't respect speed limits because many if not most speed limits in urban areas are unrealistically too low while in rural areas most make sense or are even too high.Answer me if the city was so concerned about pedestrian safety why can't the speed limits actually reflect the conditions on the street. If the speed limit on streets like Summit Street were 10 mph and streets where the limit should be 35 mph not 25 moh, maybe then drivers would respect speed limits. I have seen a 45 mile limit on the Garden State for a supposed "work zone" extend for 20 miles and there was not a sign of work or even narrow lanes. Is it any wonder that every single car was doing 65 mph. I have even seen police cars flagrantly violate work zone speed limits without lights and sirens. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 12 15:24:57 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 12 13:04:22 2015. Most drivers don't respect speed limits because many if not most speed limits in urban areas are unrealistically too lowA common misconception among drivers. In NYC there were 130 pedestrian fatalities in a population of 8.2 million for a death rate of 1.6 fatalities per 100,000 people last year. It was the lowest rate since they began taking statistics. By comparison these are the 2013 US death rates for several diseases: asthma (1.1); cervical cancer (1.2); influenza (1.2) and tuberculosis (0.2). There are national programs to further reduce the mortality figures for these diseases. The pedestrian death by vehicle disease is more deadly. Efforts to reduce its death rate are met with resistance by those who are unwilling to sacrifice a few minutes of their time. if the city was so concerned about pedestrian safety why can't the speed limits actually reflect the conditions on the street Your paradigm is reversed. First, the speed limit is established by the relation between pedestrian deaths and vehicle speed. Next the street is designed to encourage adherence to the speed limit that is safe for pedestrians. The City is concerned about pedestrian safety; that's why they have reduced the default speed limit to 25 mph. It's also the reason the City is creating 20 mph neighborhood speed limit zones. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Oct 12 17:25:46 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 12 15:24:57 2015. What next, 10 mph limits to even further reduce deaths? At some point, it gets ridiculous -- maybe we're there already. Not all deaths can be prevented. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis comparing safety to efficiency. And maybe, just maybe, pedestrians should be accountable for their own stupidity. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by fdtutf on Mon Oct 12 17:42:18 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by italianstallion on Mon Oct 12 17:25:46 2015. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis comparing safety to efficiency.How would you go about assigning a dollar value to pedestrian deaths and injuries? And maybe, just maybe, pedestrians should be accountable for their own stupidity. Since pedestrians are pretty much always the ones who come out of an encounter with a car dead or injured, that accountability is baked right in. Be pleased. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 12 21:41:49 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by italianstallion on Mon Oct 12 17:25:46 2015. What next, 10 mph limits to even further reduce deaths? At some point, it gets ridiculous -- maybe we're there already. Not all deaths can be prevented. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis comparing safety to efficiency.The probability of death with an impact speed of 20 mph is 5%. Many European cities have imposed a 30 km/hr (18 mph) speed limit on their streets. just maybe, pedestrians should be accountable for their own stupidity. In NYC. Pedestrians are totally at fault in only 30% of pedestrian fatalities. Motorists are totally at fault in 53% of pedestrian fatalities. Motorists and pedestrians are jointly at fault in 17% of pedestrian fatalities. Death is an extreme form of accountability. Pedestrians are held accountable for the 30% of pedestrians for which they are at fault. They are also held accountable for the 70% of pedestrian fatalities that for which motorists are totally or partially at fault. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Oct 12 21:44:51 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by italianstallion on Mon Oct 12 17:25:46 2015. What next, 10 mph limits to even further reduce deaths? At some point, it gets ridiculous -- maybe we're there already. Not all deaths can be prevented. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis comparing safety to efficiency.The probability of death with an impact speed of 20 mph is 5%. Many European cities have imposed a 30 km/hr (18 mph) speed limit on their streets. just maybe, pedestrians should be accountable for their own stupidity. In NYC. Pedestrians are totally at fault in only 30% of pedestrian fatalities. Motorists are totally at fault in 53% of pedestrian fatalities. Motorists and pedestrians are jointly at fault in 17% of pedestrian fatalities. Death is an extreme form of accountability. Pedestrians are held accountable for the 30% of pedestrians for which they are at fault. They are also held accountable for the 70% of pedestrian fatalities that for which motorists are totally or partially at fault. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Oct 12 23:15:01 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 12 13:04:22 2015. If you know so much then why were you fired? |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Oct 13 14:21:23 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Fri Oct 9 12:29:11 2015. Jay walking is logical when the street is clear or there is a large queue of stationary vehicles. But there are times where pedestrians are just.. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Oct 14 10:38:13 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by fdtutf on Mon Oct 12 17:42:18 2015. How would you go about assigning a dollar value to pedestrian deaths and injuries?Easy. . .they just do. I think a case like this came up a while back about the question of using special fuel on planes that was less likely to cause fire in an accident. The threat of lawsuits that may result from flight fatalities was not severe enough to warrant this potentially life-saving measure. Here's an article on assessing the worth of human beings. Dollar Value of Human Life |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Oct 14 12:45:54 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Oct 14 10:38:13 2015. Right, I know it's done. My question was specifically to the poster I was responding to. Thanks, though. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 15 20:03:51 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by fdtutf on Mon Oct 12 17:42:18 2015. "Since pedestrians are pretty much always the ones who come out of an encounter with a car dead or injured, that accountability is baked right in. Be pleased."Uh-huh. So any time a person does something stupid that kills him, it's not his fault? |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by fdtutf on Fri Oct 16 11:52:48 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 15 20:03:51 2015. So not the point, but thanks. |
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Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Sun Oct 18 13:49:01 2015, in response to Re: The Benefits of Slower Traffic, Measured in Money and Lives, posted by fdtutf on Fri Oct 16 11:52:48 2015. That's basically what it's saying. Tf someone jumps off a building and dies, then it's gravity's fault that they died. Or perhaps the Company responsible for the sidewalk because it wasn't bouncy enough? |
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