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| (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower (300442) | |
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| (300444) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Nov 28 23:26:30 2014, in response to (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Gold_12th on Fri Nov 28 22:18:01 2014. Well..so much for that.While I understand his misgivings, Staten Island Allowed the MTA/PA to make it into a cash cow. Didn't someone once say its a NIMBY paradise,if you cant afford the tolls,you don't belong there? |
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| (300445) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Nov 29 00:00:19 2014, in response to (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Gold_12th on Fri Nov 28 22:18:01 2014. Imbroglio... does he want a discount for using a fancy word? |
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| (300446) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Nov 29 00:11:01 2014, in response to (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Gold_12th on Fri Nov 28 22:18:01 2014. I think express bus fares should be higher than what they are now. :) |
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| (300447) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Nov 29 00:13:21 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Nov 29 00:00:19 2014. If the SI local bus is too slow, residents can opt to drive/park near a SIRT station (many of which go express weekday rush-hours and get to the ferry substantially quicker than the local bus.) I believe the true cost of an express bus is more like $20 per passenger, which is what the fare should be instead. |
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| (300448) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sat Nov 29 00:23:23 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Nov 29 00:13:21 2014. Not on Staten Island. Those express buses cover about 70% of their costs. |
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| (300450) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 29 01:49:42 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Nov 29 00:13:21 2014. First of all, that only applies to neighborhoods on Staten Island served by the SIR. In those cases, yeah, a ride on the SIR to the ferry is around the same time (or sometimes even quicker) than the express bus.But what about people on the northern and western portions of the island? In my neighborhood (and for this guy's neighborhood, Sunnyside), the nearest SIR station is basically at the ferry itself (technically, Grasmere is a little closer for both of us, but for the trouble of driving there, you might as well drive to the ferry). Meanwhile, the X17 gets right onto the expressway, and gets to Lower Manhattan in about 45 minutes, even less during off-peak times. You're also assuming all express bus riders have a car available. If you cut the X17 for me, I'm screwed. That's an extra 30 minutes at least to get into Manhattan. By the time the S44 gets to the ferry, the X17 would already be in Downtown Manhattan, and that's not counting the fact that the X17 connects to the (2)(3) and (A) express trains, whereas the ferry doesn't). Not to mention that off-peak, the express buses deal with less traffic, and are often more frequent than the ferry. The X1 runs every 15 minutes off-peak, compared to the ferry running every 30 minutes. The X10 & X17 in my neighborhood run every 20-30 minutes each, and you have a one-seat ride. And on top of that, you're literally talking about thousands of people driving miles and miles to reach the SIR. The nearest SIR station is 5-6 miles from my home, and that applies to many people living up and down the Richmond Avenue corridor. And to have to deal with the infrequent ferry service on top of that, many of those people might very well end up driving all the way to Manhattan. Between the traffic you cause in and around the ferry terminal (traffic can get bad along Richmond Terrace on days when there's heavy traffic on the Gowanus, and normal express bus riders start driving to the ferry), and the extra traffic on the Gowanus and in Manhattan, it is an incredibly stupid idea to eliminate all express service from Staten Island. Like Joel said, Staten Island service is relatively efficient. The weekday farebox recovery ratio is around 55%, and the weekend ratio is around 70-75%. The express service is actually more efficient than the local service on Staten Island (which hovers around 55% every day). But before people start asking for the local service to be cut too, keep in mind that the ratio is similar in parts of Eastern Queens and the Eastern Bronx. (Routes like the Q84, Bx8, etc run at similar levels of efficiency). |
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| (300460) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Nov 29 13:17:52 2014, in response to (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Gold_12th on Fri Nov 28 22:18:01 2014. the express bus used to be twice the fare of a local subway or busThat may have something to do with the introduction of bus to subway transfers. If you were on the outskirts, you may have been more inclined to take an express bus since it would be the same fare as taking the bus to the subway where you pay a second fare. But once the free transfer to the subway was introduced, there was less of a reason to keep express fares competitive since they were never going to come close to matching in price. |
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| (300464) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Nov 29 18:15:34 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Nov 29 13:17:52 2014. The express fare had always been more than twice the local fare. After free transfers, they actually lowered the express bus fare from $4 to $3 to stay competitive. |
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| (300467) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Nov 29 20:51:36 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 29 01:49:42 2014. Like Joel said, Staten Island service is relatively efficient.Proff? |
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| (300468) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 29 20:51:52 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Nov 29 00:11:01 2014. Maybe it should vary. It is more of a necessity in Staten Island, and more of a luxury in Queens Or Brooklyn with many rail options. |
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| (300469) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sat Nov 29 21:28:53 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Nov 29 18:15:34 2014. Historically, the express fare has been somewhere between 25 percent and 50 percent greater than the combined local bus plus subway fare. Essentially, people living in two-fare zones paid a small premium to ride a direct express bus instead of having to change from local bus to subway. But after MetroCard permitted free transfers between local buses and subways--effectively halving the fare for people in two-fare zones--the express should have also been adjusted so that it remained only a small premium over the combined local bus plus subway fare. Instead, the express fare has, proportionately, increased much more than the local fare. With the combined local bus plus subway fare now $2.50, and likely to go to $2.75 shortly, the express fare should really be around $3.50 to $3.75. |
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| (300471) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Nov 29 22:02:31 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by BusMgr on Sat Nov 29 21:28:53 2014. the express fare should really be around $3.50 to $3.75.That amount would be unsustainable. |
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| (300473) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Nov 29 22:37:43 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by BusMgr on Sat Nov 29 21:28:53 2014. The express should have also been adjusted so that it remained only a small premium over the combined local bus plus subway fare.Why? The express buses cost a lot more to operate so the fare should proportionally be much higher than the ombined local bus plus subway fare. |
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| (300477) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 29 23:44:03 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Nov 29 20:51:36 2014. http://transitdocs.com/files/data/nycb/2010Book.pdfhttp://transitdocs.com/files/data/nycb/NYCTEvaluation.pdf |
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| (300484) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 30 21:43:13 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Nov 29 22:37:43 2014. Since the bus and subway systems each have their own distinct operating costs, should there be different fares for each? And since it cost more to provide both a bus ride and a subway ride, should there be a higher fare for passengers using both? And since it cost more to provide a long ride than a short ride, should there be zone fares? All of these are legitimate questions, but the political process has resulted in a fare structure with no zones, free intermodal transfers, and in the case of express buses, fares that were initially set as only a small amount higher than the combined bus plus subway fares. If we change the policy for express bus fares, should we not also change the policy for other fares as well? Our public transportation system loses money, and everything about setting fares in a money-losing system is all policy. |
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| (300485) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 30 21:43:15 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Kriston Lewis on Sat Nov 29 22:02:31 2014. Would a $3.00 local fare, and $4.00 express fare be sustainable? |
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| (300486) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by R30A on Sun Nov 30 22:01:02 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 29 23:44:03 2014. At a cost of 12.20 per rider on the most efficient of the Express bus routes, It is painfully obvious that even $7 is unsustainably low. |
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| (300491) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by JAzumah on Mon Dec 1 01:25:03 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 30 21:43:15 2014. If that $3 fare was good for unlimited rides within 90 minutes, that might fly. |
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| (300492) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by JAzumah on Mon Dec 1 01:26:25 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by R30A on Sun Nov 30 22:01:02 2014. Less peaking could bring that number down somewhat. The peak to base ratio drives the cost spike. |
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| (300493) | |
Express Fare and Wheelchair access (was Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower) |
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Posted by BrianB on Mon Dec 1 02:25:42 2014, in response to (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by Gold_12th on Fri Nov 28 22:18:01 2014. In large part what has kept off-peak expresses operating is the non-wheelchair accessibility of both several subway stations, as well as most of the SIRR.As a wheelchair user myself (due to degenerating nerve disease), I tended to avoid the expresses when I was last in the city this last summer. Hmm, just read and realized that all expresses use MCI's, therefore I could have ridden them prima-facie free of charge (?!) As a recipient of SSI (due to a long hiatus of work while I was in college and university), I do not receive medicare. As such, I am perversely required to pay full fare whenever I am in NYC as I've not had the time to invest in getting a reduced-fare metrocard. I do have a reduced-fare card both for where I reside, and a reduced-fare orca card for Puget Sound. That having been said, and if I'd had to make a time-sensitive commute 5 days a week during winter months, I would have accepted it as a cost of living to have to buy a weekly Express pass, which amounts to roughly 220.00 per month. Otherwise, I'm happy with a regular fare pass, which is what I had this last summer. Of course, I was one of the few M35 passengers who regularly paid their fare, and probably the only wheelchair who bothered paying, and even then, I'll admit I didn't dip every time, only when there weren't 40 men rushing to make it to bed signing (any M35 driver can attest to this 9pm crush). Brian Bradford Kennewick, WA |
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| (300494) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Dec 1 02:54:44 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by JAzumah on Mon Dec 1 01:26:25 2014. Exactly. That's why the farebox recovery ratios are higher on the weekends for the SI express routes. |
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| (300495) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Dec 1 03:03:12 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by R30A on Sun Nov 30 22:01:02 2014. Like I said, by that logic, we should eliminate most of the local routes on Staten Island as well. But not just that, we should eliminate a bunch of local routes out in eastern Queens and the eastern Bronx (Bx8, Q16, Q84, etc).And by that logic, all suburban transit agencies should eliminate most of their service too, since most routes have less than a 50% farebox recovery ratio. Not to mention the LIRR & MNRR have comparable farebox recovery ratios. For the LIRR, it was at 44% at the time of the service reductions. By the way, we're using the total cost, rather than the marginal cost (which is the figure in the first column). The total cost is mostly fixed costs that remain the same regardless of how much service you run. |
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| (300496) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Dec 1 03:05:05 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by R30A on Sun Nov 30 22:01:02 2014. By the way, here's MTAB data as well: http://transitdocs.com/files/data/mtab/2010Book.pdf |
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| (300497) | |
Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Dec 1 10:46:46 2014, in response to Re: (Op-ed) Express bus fare should be lower, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Dec 1 03:03:12 2014. Essentially, the argument concerns the method by which costs are disaggregated, and then trying to make a relationship between those costs and the fares to be paid. Disaggregate costs by time of time of day, and "justify" very high fares in the overnight hours. Disaggregate costs by rapid transit lines, and "justify" very high fares for the Franklin Avenue shuttle. It all depends on the basis by which some public transportation services or attributes are distinguished that a particular policy can be "justified." And given that those bases can be arbitrary, and selected by policy-makers with an agenda (e.g., "let's establish high fares on express buses"), the whole scheme is entirely political. |
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