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Orion going out of business

Posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012

I just saw a press release on the CPTDB that Damiler is shutting down Orion after all current orders are fulfilled and that they're selling their SETRA models to MCI.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Wed Apr 25 12:03:40 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

RIP Orion 1977-2012

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by terrapin station on Wed Apr 25 12:15:54 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

interesting

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 12:16:25 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

I guess this means that Suffolk would have to buy from Gillig for the next bus order, assuming that another company can't give a better price, no matter if it is in 2014 or 2019 or sometime in between.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 12:30:01 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

I'm surprised but not shocked. There is way too much capacity in the North American bus manufacturing marketplace. I thought that Daimler might have used their deep pockets to aggressively price Orion's products and build market share but they never did.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by caine515 on Wed Apr 25 12:59:28 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by RiverLINE3501 on Wed Apr 25 12:03:40 2012.

Well, i guess Orion isnt going to be one of the 3 that NYC decides to go for a full order of the 7000's it's testing. Guess Milenium(aka NOVABUS),New Flyer and NOVALFS still in the running.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 13:08:08 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by caine515 on Wed Apr 25 12:59:28 2012.

Millennium is not in the running yet and I doubt NYCT will wait for them. My guess is that New Flyer will be picked for the upcoming 40-foot order since I doubt the MTA will want to be completely dependent on Nova.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by Joe on Wed Apr 25 13:12:45 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 13:08:08 2012.

Thanks for posting the news. Some questions:
1) I seem to see Setra buses here only as over-the-road coaches in charter service. Does Setra make transit models?
2) Am I correct that MCI also does not make buses for regular local service?
Thanks

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 13:20:10 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by Joe on Wed Apr 25 13:12:45 2012.

I'm not aware of any Setra transit buses in North America. And yes, MCI builds coaches only, although they did buy the designs and rights for the Flxible Metro back in the 1990's.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Apr 25 14:11:05 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by Joe on Wed Apr 25 13:12:45 2012.

1) I seem to see Setra buses here only as over-the-road coaches in charter service. Does Setra make transit models?
2) Am I correct that MCI also does not make buses for regular local service?


The press release says Daimler is exiting the North American transit market entirely.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by DaRidgewoodBusBuff on Wed Apr 25 14:29:39 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

That's shocking. Sucks to hear that people will lose their jobs.

Looks like New Flyer will easily win out of the three 90 bus orders.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Apr 25 14:41:13 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

What's really sad is that people will be losing their jobs and that now the last manufacturer of motorcoaches in America (MCI) is allowing some foreign ownership....It makes me nervous for the future of MCI

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 14:52:49 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Apr 25 14:41:13 2012.

MCI has been on shaky ground in recent years. I'm not sure what buying the right to distribute Setra coaches does for them.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by T8H5307N on Wed Apr 25 15:10:19 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by Joe on Wed Apr 25 13:12:45 2012.

Setra only sells luxury motorcoaches here; its delivery center is in Greensboro, also where the Sprinter shuttle vehicle is produced. This will close.

Daimler (Trucks) also owns Thomas, which no longer produces a transit bus.

MCI only produces over-the road coaches.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by Pink Jazz on Wed Apr 25 15:23:54 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

In the past year, Gillig has benefitted a lot due to the economy, since they are frequently the lowest bidder when it comes to RFPs in the United States. More TAs are resorting to awarding contracts to the lowest bidder, rather than the most compliant bidder.

Orion, on the other hand, tends to bid uncompetitively high for most TAs. With the economy the way it is, there is no way Orion can compete with the other manufacturers with their uncompetitively high bids for contracts.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Apr 25 15:52:04 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by Pink Jazz on Wed Apr 25 15:23:54 2012.

I wonder if in the future, Gillig could be on NYC streets down the line; they could try to qualify with the MTA. They seem to have a model tailor-made for the US market.

BTW, out of curiosity, are the NABI and Nova Bus (NY) plants non-union?

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 17:22:28 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by Pink Jazz on Wed Apr 25 15:23:54 2012.

Well its safe to say that SCT will probably only get Gillig from now on, unless there is another company that could meet their needs.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by B53RICH on Wed Apr 25 18:27:18 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 12:16:25 2012.

How about NICE? NICE is 100% Orion.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by fixall on Wed Apr 25 19:23:28 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

This will be the third time for them!
I wish them all well. They are good people in a bad situation.
Maybe New York State will take them over and build buses for Transit companies around the country. One Spec., One bus for all to use. They could be built at cost and sold, with any profit going to NY State. At a time of such unemployment, maybe the Feds could pony-up to help. At this rate there will only be buses from outside the US.

Just a thought from and old Bus Man.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Apr 25 20:01:39 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

Nooo...

Though I have to admit I have not been a fan of anything of theirs since the O5.

I hope Gillig gets a bit more business as a result, I'm loving their 40' LowFloor buses up here (there's also a BRT version with identical interior). Their 30' version is terrible though.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 20:10:30 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 17:22:28 2012.

New Flyer could meet their needs - the question is whether they could outbid Gillig.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by R30A on Wed Apr 25 20:12:17 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Apr 25 14:41:13 2012.

MCI has almost always had foreign ownership...

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 20:20:58 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by B53RICH on Wed Apr 25 18:27:18 2012.

That I have no idea, my guess would be whoever Veolia does the most business with.


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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by R40SlantontheB on Wed Apr 25 20:27:11 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 17:22:28 2012.

But it wont be Phantoms, since Gillig stopped making those. Either way this sucks, but the economy is pushing quality bus makers out.


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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 20:29:33 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Apr 25 20:10:30 2012.

Anything is possible. Though Gillig would probably get the next order as it would likely to replace the 6 (now five) Phantom Suburbans, as they will be 14 years old in a few years and Suffolk keeps Gilligs for about 14 years.

They next big order will be in 2019 when the 2005 Gillig are 14 years old, assuming that Suffolk doesn't decided to scrap them earlier with the 2000 Suburbans and the last Orion V's.

Whatever Suffolk decided to do, based on pasted orders big orders, the next fixed route bus order will probably be bigger then the 2010 Order.

1996 - 43 buses ordered
1999 - 42 Buses ordered
2005 - 59 buses ordered
2010 - 81 buses ordered

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 20:36:23 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by R40SlantontheB on Wed Apr 25 20:27:11 2012.

I know the Phantom model was retired. I based my answer on that Gillig has been the only other, still operating, company Suffolk has brought Fixed Route buses from so it would be logical that they could choice them.

Though we are at least two, if one rumor is to be believed, if not more years away for a new bus order.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by Gold_12TH on Wed Apr 25 22:09:07 2012, in response to Orion going out of business, posted by Mr. Transit on Wed Apr 25 11:51:12 2012.

no more free Orion buses for MTA :)

very sad for the workers in both plants.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Apr 25 23:00:13 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Wed Apr 25 17:22:28 2012.

Don't be surprised if NICE ends up with Gilligs down the line---they are best adapted to the low bid.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Apr 26 00:52:04 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by B53RICH on Wed Apr 25 18:27:18 2012.

I see the ElDorado Axess or Gillig Low Floor in their future.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Thu Apr 26 13:29:39 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Apr 25 23:00:13 2012.

Maybe if the order is around 40 or 50. Remember Suffolk's last order was for 81 and if it went to Orion, then Gillig couldn't have been that low. (That is assuming that Gillig Had even bid could adopt to Suffolk's Liking)

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Thu Apr 26 15:25:23 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Thu Apr 26 13:29:39 2012.

Unless there was no bid - ST might have used an available option from another customer. Lots of that happeneing these days.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Thu Apr 26 15:41:35 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by RailBus63 on Thu Apr 26 15:25:23 2012.

No the order was brought out right with County/State/ and Federal Money. Which was how come it was so big, it was only suppose to be for only 55 buses, but then Congressman Bishop got a load of federal Money.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by RailBus63 on Thu Apr 26 17:01:12 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by mac5689 on Thu Apr 26 15:41:35 2012.

Other agencies have used available options to buy buses with Federal/State/Local money instead of doing their own bid.

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Re: Orion going out of business

Posted by mac5689 on Thu Apr 26 21:26:29 2012, in response to Re: Orion going out of business, posted by RailBus63 on Thu Apr 26 17:01:12 2012.

As far as I know its the county's own bid, which was originally for 55 buses with an option for 28 or so more which they took all at once.

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