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| I was quoted in today's New York Times (201892) | |
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| (201892) | |
I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 12:31:13 2010 Transit Cuts, an Agony Without End |
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| (201904) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by Hart Bus on Fri Jul 16 15:15:54 2010, in response to I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 12:31:13 2010. Point well taken. If you follow reporter Greg Mocker on the WPIX-TV's 10 O'clock news, he has found that they just created a 270,000 per year position for a woman who is supposed to be an efficiency expert from Albany. The attorney general and an inspector general have implied in reports that she was incompetent in her last job, with controlling of overtime and a ballooning department.I guess its a "do as I say, not as I do" situation. Glad to see that "THE PETER PRINCIPLE" still lives on ! |
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| (201910) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 18:22:00 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by Hart Bus on Fri Jul 16 15:15:54 2010. I think it was $217,000 not $270,000. Saw the story. Do you know if he has done any new follow-ups on it.Just heard a few minutes ago that a bunch of non-union analysts and specialists and some managers were let go today with no warning. Some were forced to leave the building immediately with their belongings and were told they will be paid for the next two months. |
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| (201912) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by B53RICH on Fri Jul 16 18:30:53 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 18:22:00 2010. "Do you know if he has done any new follow-ups on it."Greg Mocker is continuing with this each day. This story won't end soon. |
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| (201921) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 16 20:13:16 2010, in response to I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 12:31:13 2010. Are vast numbers of riders affected? Probably not. “But the point isn’t how many people,” Mr. Rosen said. “It’s the fact that it’s unfair and no one should have to suffer like this.” No, that actually IS the point. The cuts were designed to affect the least amount of people yet save the most money. So if very few people having to pay 2 fares means saving NYCT a lot of money, then it was a valid decision. Take Pride,
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| (201930) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 20:51:09 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 16 20:13:16 2010. So fairness has nothing to do with it? Glad you are not a judge. I say we raise the fair for Terrapin Station to $100 each way and all others continue to pay $2.25.Your logic is so non-sensical its laughable. If very few people have to pay two fares, it couldn't possibly save "a lot" of money. But you would just define " a lot" anyway you want. I shouldn't have even wasted my time writing this. |
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| (201962) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:11:37 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 20:51:09 2010. Your comment shows that you've dismissed the cost of operation. Parking 5 buses from a route that serves very few people indeed saves a LOT of money, despite the small number of people affected. The bus costs the same amount of money to put on the road, whether it's standing room only or 5 people per trip. If it's below the break-even point of the bus actually making money, then it's the smart decision to cut the run. |
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| (201963) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 01:20:25 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by B53RICH on Fri Jul 16 18:30:53 2010. This is like asking a hungry kid to guard the pie. |
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| (201966) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 01:28:00 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:11:37 2010. Based on this logic, you would ask the hungry kid to guard the pie. You forget that the TA is forcing riders to double-dip at certain locations, especially at Franklin Av-Fulton St. I would avoid doing this like the plague. |
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| (201967) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 01:29:08 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 01:20:25 2010. Scratch that. Posted this at the wrong location. |
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| (201971) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:39:17 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 01:28:00 2010. The purpose of the cuts was to close a budget gap. If the vast majority of customers still have service of some kind, even if it takes longer or costs them more per trip, then MTA has met its obligations.For all who complain that cuts are unfair, get on the phone Monday morning to Bloomberg and Paterson, and say "Yes, please substantially raise my taxes so I can have service again." Because that's what it will take - money. Everyone wants government services, but no one wants to foot the bill for them. If the NYPD was a private security force instead of government service, the monthly bill for their fee would be scarier than the criminals. |
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| (201974) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Jul 17 02:22:36 2010, in response to I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 12:31:13 2010. 'At least with a guillotine, you were sliced only once.'only if everything worked as designed....... |
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| (201978) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Sat Jul 17 03:01:04 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:39:17 2010. I'm sure that there are many places in the state budget where the fat could be cut while increasing vital government services, e.g., mass transit. Only after that would I want taxes to be increased, especially the income tax.Unfortunately, our elected members in the Assembly and Senate have "sacred cows". All we can do is apply constant and consistent pressure to our elected officials to make sure that they "do the right thing". |
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| (202002) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 17 11:23:08 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:11:37 2010. Your comment shows that you are mixing apples and oranges. The issue in this discussion is not if it was right or wrong to cut the routes, but if it was fair to charge people more for a longer and more inconvenient trip. The routes still could have been cut with additional transfers being allowed so as not to increase the cost to the passenger. This had been the practice since the 1930s until last year. |
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| (202005) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 17 11:36:01 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:39:17 2010. There are many ways to close a budget gap. Some cuts may have been unavoidable and others just should have been made anyway. As for if the MTA has met its obligations if they merely provide some type of service to the vast majority of customers, I direct you to Henry Stern's Op-Ed piece" in the Brooklyn Eagle who spoke far more eloquently on this subject than I could. |
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| (202010) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 12:39:38 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 17 11:36:01 2010. Read his piece before. Doesn't change my opinion.What right do you have to demand MTA specifically accommodate YOU over anyone else? Out of the millions of passenger trips MTA provides, how many are affected by this new two-fare trip? A few thousand, tops? Sorry, not enough to be declared "unfair". What some people are being asked to do is take alternate (as opposed to replacement) service that already existed. The transfer complaint defeats the purpose of cutting the bus route in the first place - the alternate service was deemed financially sound (or it would have been cut as well), so why cut its revenue with the transfer? MTA's obligation is to transport the maximum number of people in the most financially efficient manner. BUT - they operate a money-losing business. They have to strike a balance between serving you the taxpayer and you the passenger. However, one of those two "yous" will have to pay extra for the other to be happy. |
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| (202053) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 18 00:30:26 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 12:39:38 2010. Well you don't change my mind either. What makes you think this was personal? I am not affected by the extra fare these people are required to pay. The fact is that a long-standing policy of over 70 years was changed which unfairly affects probably a small number of people and does not significantly impact the MTA's bottom line.As far as financially sound, no route is financially sound since they all lose money except for maybe one or two routes. The supposedly eliminated the worst performers, but there was much fault in their methodology, so the least harm was not necessarily done to the least numbers of people. The issue of fairness still remains. You should not have to pay more to take a more inconvenient trip which will take you longer and require additional vehicles. Cutting the routes was punishment enough for theses people. It should not be compounded with paying more for the privilege. |
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| (202063) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Sun Jul 18 01:36:05 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 18 00:30:26 2010. "That's the way it's always been done" is just not a good enough reason. When New York City went through its financial crisis in the 70s, they had to change the way they did things... the old way didn't work any more. MTA is in a similar position... the old way isn't going to work any more. And inconvenience is part of what the customers will have to accept... again, if they want service levels as they were, they can give the city and state permission to raise taxes. People don't want tax increases, but they don't want service cuts and fare hikes, either... can't have it both ways. The service has to be paid for by someone. |
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| (202076) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 18 12:52:32 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sun Jul 18 01:36:05 2010. It's not a question of increasing taxes versus increasing service. Many people including myself wouldn't mind taxes being raised if they knew where the money was going and could see improvements from the tax increase. The reason most people are against tax increases is that the money disappears into the general fund and no one sees any improvements.Politicians have traditionally been against dedicated taxes and when they promise one, they lie or mislead. Look at the lottery for example. All proceeds were to fund education. People thought education would improve so they approved the proposition. Albany promptly reduces its support of eduction from something like 50% of the state budget to something much lower and replaces the money with lottery money. Result: No additional money for education and Albany has extra money to waste as they please. The issue here is how to make the MTA more effective and efficient with minimal cuts to service. You can't do this when you fire service employees and replace them with political hacks earning $217,000 per year and protect all your friends in upper management. Why is there one cleaning supervisor for four employees? Why are cleaners being let go and supervisory vacancies being filled? Why do track workers have to spend unproductive hours waiting for supplies to be delivered? Why doesn't the MTA have more success with union givebacks so they can have more flexibility in operations? First solve these problems, then tell me we need to raise the fare or increase taxes. |
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| (202099) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 18 20:41:06 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 18 12:52:32 2010. BrooklynBus is 100% correct!In his neighborhood, the B4 was cut back during the non-rush from the Regal Sheepshead Bay Cinema to the Coney Island Hospital. 60% of these riders overall, and 75% on weekends, used this service to get to the cinema. Now, unless you live near a bus that transfers to the B44, and there are few, you're screwed. It's now more convenient to travel to Times Square! Instead of staying in Brooklyn, what these riders prefer, they now go into Manhattan. The remainder used this route to access the Sheepshead Bay subway station. What would you tell them to do? Walk? People in these neighborboods will choose to drive than use another bus route. In the end, the MTA gains nothing, and more people are more inconvenienced. Including yourself! |
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| (202100) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 18 20:46:11 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 18 20:41:06 2010. I don't think he's correct. |
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| (202101) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by 9 local on Sun Jul 18 20:47:45 2010, in response to I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 16 12:31:13 2010. w00t for yu0 |
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| (202114) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 18 22:36:11 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by 9 local on Sun Jul 18 20:47:45 2010. I don't think your email is working. You may want to check it. |
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| (202153) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 19 14:34:28 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 18 20:41:06 2010. I wonder how many errors they made in their calculations. Don't forget they wanted to discontinue the B4 east of Coney Island Avenue at all times. I showed them numbers of people riding the route during weekday afternoons so they restored service between 6AM and 9AM and 2PM and 7PM. Otherwise more people would have been screwed.As it is, as someone else pointed out to me, terminating the route at Sheepshead Bay Station would have made more sense than Coney Island Avenue and the additional cost would have been negligible or none at all. If all of he changes were throughly scrutinized, many other errors and inconsistencies in logic would surface. |
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| (202154) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jul 19 15:04:28 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jul 17 01:39:17 2010. For all who complain that cuts are unfair, get on the phone Monday morning to Bloomberg and Paterson, and say "Yes, please substantially raise my taxes so I can have service again." Because that's what it will take - money.LOL, I like you. |
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| (202156) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jul 19 15:16:39 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 19 14:34:28 2010. Who are the people making these decisions? I thought they had people counters to check ridership? |
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| (202181) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jul 20 00:39:55 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jul 19 15:16:39 2010. Unfortunately, that's all they have. NYCT's service planners are afraid to think for themselves for fear of retaliation.A true service planner knows that when you change a service, you play with people's lives. The problem is to bring it down to a science. SEPTA's service planners has done this for years with their Service Standards and Process. Go to www.septa.org, drag the cursor to "Media" (not the city, LOL) and click "Reports". Go down the page to Other Reports, and click. It's there for all to see. So, will cutting back the B64 from Coney Island to Ulmer Park really save $900,000 a year? the B4 from Knapp St to Coney Island Hospital $800,000 a year? SEPTA's Service Standards and Process will make you think about the true cost of service. Unfortunately, NYCT is only one of two public transportation entities in the USA where Operations Planning is overseen by the bean counters (LACMTA is the other). Until this changes, all of the above would be for naught. |
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| (202191) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Tue Jul 20 09:20:05 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by dkupf on Tue Jul 20 00:39:55 2010. Unfortunately, NYCT is only one of two public transportation entities in the USA where Operations Planning is overseen by the bean counters (LACMTA is the other).Great, the 2 largest agencies in the US (and covering the two areas where I spent most of the first 39 years of my life). Oh well. |
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| (202302) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 20 21:02:34 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Jul 19 15:16:39 2010. Checking ridership numbers tells you how much service to put on a route. It does not tell you where the routes should go. For that you need to do origin destination studies, asking people to fill out and mail back forms as to the trip they are taking. That costs money, money that the MTA doesn't have and doesn't want to spend. So they are using traffic counts to plan routes, one of the first things they tell you in Planning school not to do.To do adequate planning you have to have a feel for passenger habits, why people take and do not take buses, what influences their decisions, etc. The MTA is in the complete dark about this. For example, they think that people will wait for a bus until it comes even if they have to wait for an hour. They don't. After five or ten minutes, most will start walking or seeking alternate means, unless there absolutely isn't any. They don't realize that many people will only take a bus on the spur of the moment, i.e. that is if they see one coming. They don't realize that some people go to work one way and come back with another route. All they see are numbers on a piece of paper and maps of routes that don't show topography and other barriers. They have no experts who ride the system. All they know is their own trip to and from work. They have a few buffs who may be experts on the different types of buses or some history fanatics who know something about the history of the routes, but no one who knows the bus system. They have plenty of subway experts who are very knowledgeable but no bus experts. When I worked in Operations Planning many years ago, I made what I thought was an obvious statement of fact, that in poor weather (rain, snow or cold) fewer people are willing to walk to the subway and would rather ride a bus instead to the train. My boss looked at me as if I was crazy and responded. What makes you think so? Did you ever do a study that showed that? How do you know that's true? This is what you are dealing with. |
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| (202446) | |
Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Jul 21 13:57:18 2010, in response to Re: I was quoted in today's New York Times, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 20 21:02:34 2010. "To do adequate planning you have to have a feel for passenger habits, why people take and do not take buses, what influences their decisions, etc. The MTA is in the complete dark about this. For example, they think that people will wait for a bus until it comes even if they have to wait for an hour. They don't. After five or ten minutes, most will start walking or seeking alternate means, unless there absolutely isn't any. They don't realize that many people will only take a bus on the spur of the moment, i.e. that is if they see one coming. They don't realize that some people go to work one way and come back with another route."Yeah that's true, where I live, if the N6 takes too long, people will walk to Queens and take the Q2 or Q110. I've done it a few times. Also I didn't always take the same bus routes too and from work, It varied on the bus schedule, the time, etc. For these surveys, can they put them online to save some money? Or, do they have to be handed out to hope that people will actually fill them out? "When I worked in Operations Planning many years ago, I made what I thought was an obvious statement of fact, that in poor weather (rain, snow or cold) fewer people are willing to walk to the subway and would rather ride a bus instead to the train. My boss looked at me as if I was crazy and responded. What makes you think so? Did you ever do a study that showed that? How do you know that's true? This is what you are dealing with. " They really have idiots that work there like that? It's fairly obvious as to why that statement would be true. |
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