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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 19:12:00 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 2 18:11:17 2012.

Why did I remember this as a six-track terminal?

Oh well. Costs are up to $7.3 billion, and the estimated time of opening is Spring 2018. That's six years from now. It may never open.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 19:42:16 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 19:12:00 2012.

NJT's Bunker was to be 6 tracks.
ESA has the original P-B design of 4 over 4 with a mid-level mezzanine.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 19:51:33 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 19:42:16 2012.

To think that the original cost of ESA was $3 billion, too. And the tunnels for it under the East River were there already.

With all these billions floating around, we could have had a Union Station already, with both the Hoboken Division and Atlantic Avenue Branch going to Manhattan.

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(G00GLE)

Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...


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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:02:49 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:37:22 2012.

The train has to go to LIC anyway. May as well take some passengers. Tge trains will be empty to HPA ince ESA opens anyway.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:03:52 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 17:57:51 2012.

False. No one will want to have deal with the 7 train if they dont have to.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:05:24 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 19:51:33 2012.

Nah, that would have been $25B given who you are dealing with.

Original ESA under Emperor Ronan would have been a PATH-like 3 track terminal at 48th & 3rd. I have no idea what the capacity would have been.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:11:25 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 2 15:46:50 2012.

There used to be one electric train to ronkonkoma if i am not mistaken. Not sure if they still do it.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:12:41 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:41:44 2012.

And whatever the number is it will be a small fraction with ESA opening

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:12:55 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:02:49 2012.

Where's the budget to build these stations ?
Since none of us have any idea of the service plan nor customer's reaction, the jury is out as to whether HPA trains will be empty.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:14:54 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:03:52 2012.

Sit on a under-used HPA train or transfer to and maybe stand on a crowded MU to ESA for 25 minutes, then the #7 is still in the running for a 5 minute trip.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:15:23 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:20:22 2012.

??????????? They would stop at the platforms at LIC. And how many do you really think get on at HPA instead of riding in from Penn to Jamaica? Do you REALLY think they take the 7 Train to HPA? Please.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 20:17:56 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:05:24 2012.

The corruption's staggering. Entrenched since two centuries ago too. It's thanks to NYC that there aren't any rail bridges going into Manhattan after all; their big anti-steam ordinance that didn't help anything anyhow once gasoline and diesel power started to dominate.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:23:43 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:24:35 2012.

Lol. You think they will have some one fist drop them off at a bus station to then take some bus to a station to then wait for a train to take them to some ither rr station to then wait for a bus thatt you would hope would drop them off in front of their place of emploment.....instead of just getting into their car in their driveway and sriving to the oarking lot of their place of enployment? Lol. Railfan fantasy.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 2 20:23:58 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:02:49 2012.

Using the Lower Montauk would also preclude having to switch the diesels over from the HPA station and onto the main line.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:29:50 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 18:38:54 2012.

Its YOU that has the fetish for a one day useless station....HPA. The trains have to go to LIC yard anyway. With the small amount of people that will use the service after ESA they dont need both LIC and HPA.
While I agree about the huge ADA cost of opening the former local stations again....thats really a separate topic from the uselessness of HPA once ESA opens.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:38:29 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:46:36 2012.

The trains run to LIC now anway.....whether thy do HPA or not. All they will need is LIC in the future. HPA is currently only a convenience for about 2 or 3 trainloads of people the vast majority of which will use Grand Central in the future.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:44:39 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 2 17:55:58 2012.

Dont confuse the railfan foamer with facts. There is NO WAY the average long islander will give up their cars to take a bus to a train to another bus when parking is fairly easy.

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Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:50:49 2012, in response to Re: Long Island City..., posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 2 17:52:37 2012.

Until I was a railfan....I didnt even know there were rr tracks that went under the intersection of metro ave a fresh pond road.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:56:39 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:12:55 2012.

The jury is not out....most of them will use the ESA. And as for the local stations...I already stated that is a totally separate topic to the closing of HPA. The trains to LIC can use the mainline or the montauk branch.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 20:57:42 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:56:39 2012.

Six years down the road. Don't start counting chickens.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:59:08 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 20:14:54 2012.

Lol. Comparing a "crowded ESA train to the 7. NAH...THE 7 "never" gets crowded at rush hour.....to the level of a commuter train. lol.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 20:59:19 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 20:17:56 2012.

"It's thanks to NYC that there aren't any rail bridges going into Manhattan after all..."

I am still waiting for the Port Authority to build the rail freight tunnel it was chartered to build in my grandfather's day.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 20:59:50 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:03:52 2012.

That's like people claiming that nobody will want to deal with the PATH train at Hoboken. They still do, especially when the Midtown Direct got slowed down . . . if journey time wins out, then people will do what they have to do to not be late for work.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:00:36 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:59:08 2012.

More doors, so easier to get in and out. And journey time still is a factor.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:01:07 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 20:59:19 2012.

Yes; we all are. That's part of the PANY(NJ)'s original charter too.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:02:28 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 17:50:00 2012.

"Much to your chagrin, the Ronkonkoma ones has it's peak load point east of Mineola. YES people do commuter intra-island. I remember the LIRR's chief service planner saying some years ago he had to expand the consist from 6 to 8 cars to handle them."

I finished early one day and took an early afternoon train back to the office in Carle Place and was mildly surprised but not shocked to see what obviously were a large contingent of Chaminade high school students boarding in Mineola to head east.



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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:02:35 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 20:57:42 2012.

No one is saying HPA isnt useful until that point.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:04:05 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:02:35 2012.

A lot can happen in six years.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:04:33 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:00:36 2012.

Lol. Yeah for the thousands of people that take the 7 to HPA instead of a train fromPenn to Jamaica. Lol.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:05:25 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:02:28 2012.

Mineola is a hub station. No surprise there. There arent many like it.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:06:34 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:04:05 2012.

Like? Obviously we are only talking WHEN ESA opens. Until then HPA is quite useful.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:16:38 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 2 15:43:21 2012.

"No one is going to take a diesel to HPA and then use the subway into GCT when ESA will provide direct LIRR service there."

But depending upon when one is leaving and from where, that Grand Central service may not be all that direct. Obviously, some lines will have direct service, and others will have a cross-platform transfer waiting at Jamaica. Still others, however, may have a long wait at Jamaica for a transfer. They might prefer going to Hunters Point Avenue or even Long Island City, assuming that the service is still available. It may well not be available regardless of whether anyone prefers it or not. Even now, Hunters Point Avenue gets only a handful of inbound trains in the AM rush and a handful of outbound trains in the PM rush, no reverse peak service, and no off-peak service. I am going to guess that the choice will be made for the commuter. And even if the trains have to go to LIC anyway, the railroad may prefer to run them empty than in revenue service for various reasons. For example, a train not scheduled to stop at Hunters Point Avenue can take any given trip either via the Main Line or via the Lower Montauk as conditions warrant. If it has a scheduled stop, it has to take the route past the stop, and it can't run early and has to have a full crew, etc. Equipment trains can run wherever, whenever (though I know there is a schedule for equipment trains too).

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:28:25 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 18:38:54 2012.

this fetish about closing HPA to allegedly save money...

I fear the LIRR thinks the same way, though. I bet some accountant has already figured out a creative "savings" by closing Hunters Point Avenue. After what I read on railroad.net about the LIRR's official cost for maintaining each car stop marker at each station (I believe it was in the thousands of dollars a year range), I could believe almost anything. Sure, it's a nothing station, nothing much more than a platform, two staircases, billboards, and a couple of ticket vending machines, but we would probably be shocked at the official cost of keeping it open.

As for ADA requirements to reopen the Lower Montauk stations, those costs would come from the capital budget, which is separately funded (possibly by federal pork). The LIRR could easily tout the savings of closing HPA while celebrating the ribbon-cutting of the new ADA-compliant Glendale Station, as dignitaries and management outnumber real passengers on the new high-level platforms.

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Re: Long Island City...

Posted by G1Ravage on Mon Apr 2 21:31:35 2012, in response to Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Mar 30 08:53:54 2012.

So old school.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 2 21:36:17 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 21:05:25 2012.

Mineola is a hub station. No surprise there. There arent many like it.

It's the only station with offices within walking distance, where some offices have limited parking, and crap highway access. For example, one of my coworkers residing in Central Islip bothers to make the commute via the railroad when she has a 9-5 shift. FWIW, Suffolk County residents that work in Nassau County are probably the ideal commuters in a situation like this.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 21:48:10 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 2 21:36:17 2012.

Yes. Mineola is on of the few stations like this on Long Island. It certainly works if you happen to be in one of those office buildings near the station. That said, Mineola is the anormality, not the norm.
No surprise that Mineola is well used for intra island travel. It's also not typical of most of the rest of the stations on Long Island.

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Re: Long Island City...

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 21:50:33 2012, in response to Re: Long Island City..., posted by Mitch45 on Mon Apr 2 17:48:32 2012.

??????

Because they grade eliminated the line through there. It was built as part of the grade crossing elimination project of Jamaica and Hillside Avenues. Can you imagine grade crossings on Jamaica or Hillside Ave there? Even if a low use line.

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Re: Long Island City...

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 21:51:44 2012, in response to Re: Long Island City..., posted by G1Ravage on Mon Apr 2 21:31:35 2012.

Yup. They were relics of a bygone era even when in operation!

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 22:00:48 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:28:25 2012.

The LIRR could easily tout the savings of closing HPA while celebrating the ribbon-cutting of the new ADA-compliant Glendale Station, as dignitaries and management outnumber real passengers on the new high-level platforms.

While I agree with you, the station that had the most use was Fresh Pond when the line was operating, followed by Haberman. Unfortunately, Fresh Pond, the most useful of all of them, would also be the hardest to make ADA compliant, so unfortunately, it would never happen, and mostly because ADA requirement would make it cost prohibitive (so unfortunately no one would get to use it).

In my unscientific tally of the line use (I used it often), here are my stats on the stations at the end (of course, this is based on the horrid service provided):

Richmond Hill:
Morning: 1 regular passenger
Afternoon: No regular passengers, 1 or 2 occasional passengers.

Glendale: 1 or 2 occasional passengers AM or PM

Fresh Pond:
Morning: 4 or 5 regular passengers
Afternoon: 3 or 4 regular passengers

Haberman:
Morning: 3 or 4 regular passengers
Afternoon: 2 or 3 regular passengers

Penny Bridge: I never saw anyone get on or off there.


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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Mon Apr 2 22:01:44 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 21:48:10 2012.

It's also not typical of most of the rest of the stations on Long Island.

It's something that's come up on other a transit advocacy website recently, and the argument has been that we need more Mineolas on Long Island at minimum, and arguably more far more in the way of denser development around of stations. Of course, there's a lot of institutional and political bias against said type of development in the suburbs, especially on Long Island...

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 22:39:11 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 22:00:48 2012.

"Penny Bridge: I never saw anyone get on or off there."

They would probably reopen that one first.

Some congressman probably lives near there and could secure federal funding as a "demonstration project" to get it rebuilt and reopened. They would cut the ribbon and anxiously await the first passenger to board the new train and act genuinely shocked when no one appeared.

I am only being half facetious here. I have driven through no small number of rural areas that have immaculate, brand-new, empty four-lane divided highways that are clearly overkill while congested areas get nothing useful.



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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 22:50:34 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 21:28:25 2012.

Reference for car stop marker cost (go to the last three messages on the page)

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by J trainloco on Mon Apr 2 23:45:18 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:03:52 2012.

What if you have to deal with the 7 anyway? What if you work on the west side near 42nd street and you're on an HPA train?

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Apr 3 05:42:45 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 31 11:11:27 2012.

Doubtful, might as well run a train to Bushwick to connect with the L then.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 3 10:47:14 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Joe V on Mon Apr 2 18:38:54 2012.

I want to close useless stations and consider building useful ones. I am not even fully advocating re-opening some of the Lower Montauk stations, I am just tossing the idea out there. Let's see what the people who live in Maspeth think about it.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 3 10:53:09 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 2 22:00:48 2012.

I advocate only one station in Maspeth. A good spot to me would be near the UPS hub on 48th St. Fresh Pond would really only serve NY&A workers. Richmond Hill already exists, with a high level platform and would cost nothing to re-open.

Maspeth is the easiest sell. The others would be harder to justify.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Apr 3 10:59:21 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Apr 2 22:39:11 2012.

I have driven through no small number of rural areas that have immaculate, brand-new, empty four-lane divided highways that are clearly overkill while congested areas get nothing useful.

The marginal cost of building a wider road in a rural area is a fraction of what it is in a congested area, and they probably aren't "overkill."

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 3 11:11:16 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 2 21:00:36 2012.

Ever been on one of these trains? They crawl west of Woodside and have lower priority at the Sunnyside interlocking(s). If given the choice, LIRR riders WILL choose the transfer to an electric train directly to GCT than remaining on to HPA for the #7.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 3 16:57:30 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:29:50 2012.

You are in no position to judge HPA will be useless after ESA.

After coming up with ridiculous excuses like the cost of TVM's (they can removed in a day), then can't answer about diesel train patrons changing onto crowded ESA trains at Jamaica, you have no arguments left.

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Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City...

Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 3 17:00:07 2012, in response to Re: Glendale Re: Long Island City..., posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Apr 2 20:15:23 2012.

Have you done a headcount, or are you just talking off the top of your head ? LIRR could easily abort the PM Montauk jobs to start out of Jamaica, and they do not.

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