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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 21:43:36 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by WillD on Sat Feb 18 21:12:28 2012.

It still sounds like you're not counting the higher cost of maintenance for the overhead lines.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 18 22:06:10 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 18 21:33:19 2012.

Most manufacturing requires skilled workers. Machinists, electricians, technical people ... pays better than a college degree in retail and cube farms. After all, this is America and it's all about the dinero.

The "elite" these days is called "associate" or "barista" ... doesn't pay as well as the trades.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by WillD on Sat Feb 18 23:05:21 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 21:43:36 2012.

That is of course going to need to be accounted for. But again, when included in the economies of scale present in electrifying the entire East End the additional cost is fairly minor. They're already going to have to purchase the equipment, this would merely ensure it is somewhat better utilized. Besides, the studies out of Toronto, San Fran, and Denver (apologies, the other two appear to have been removed, I'll see if I can find them) clearly show that with rising fuel prices the commonly held belief that some extreme frequency (4 TPH or more) is required for the electrification to save money simply isn't true.

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(G00GLE)

Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station


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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:20:48 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Feb 18 21:33:19 2012.

instead of working as a dirty labourer with poor manners

You're not even funny.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:27:09 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 21:43:36 2012.

What higher cost of maintenance? They have a tenth of the number of substations (with no rectifiers), and they aren't subject to interference by ground precipitation.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:28:23 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by merrick1 on Sat Feb 18 20:06:06 2012.

It wasn't there originally (it was all third rail at one time), and what's being imagined for the Hudson Line is several miles of it. Apples and oranges.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 00:28:40 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:20:48 2012.

You ought to hang out with some GenX ... that's exactly what they're telling their kids ... yaknow ... America's future?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:42:33 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 18 19:45:20 2012.

Guess you didn't get the memo that CSX is now leasing POU-SDY to Amtrak

Why are you posting an article that's over four months out of date, and assuming that the lease went through? And it's funny that the state couldn't be reached for comment back then. I see no updates on this, nor lease details.

I do believe Amtrak can now do whatever they want with the line, within reason

You can bet that "within reason" does not include electrification, and at best would mean Class 6 track assuming that NYS pays for the signal upgrades. Still pipe-dreaming?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:43:56 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 18 19:40:37 2012.

Six cars now? They've been doing that for a while.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:54:35 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 19:11:59 2012.

It's done where it gives operational flexibility. The Euston-Watford DC line is kept DC even though the paralleling tracks are AC powered so tube trains can run on it. North London line used to have duplicate electrification before they got dual-capable Class 313.

Although in the States, I can only think of PATH in the old days and the NYP area


So you found two examples of two different railroads where one of the two has clearances too low for lowered pantographs (or overhead wires) while operating in tunnels. In the case of Amtrak and Metro-North on the Hudson Line, this would not give any particular operational flexiblity.

"and MBTA has what to do with this?"

An example of diesel operation under catenary


Great; more apples/oranges. This was not being discussed here AFAICS.

You'd need transformers too. Not just rectifiers. The cost of maintaining AC only equipment is not that different from AC/DC dual capable ones when compared to DC only equipment

I would not think so. The AC/DC third-rail/catenary EMUs have a lot more physical equipment on them than your Arrow III.

"Block length, remember? Average speed is doubled there versus what's intended for NYP-ALB, a regional-type operation"

Huh? What that has to do with frequency of service?


You're the one who brought up new-build HSR—something that's intended to host average speeds in the 145-mph range. That's an apples/oranges comparison with the Empire Service; you're not justifying (re)electrification on a traditional railroad with your fourteen trains unless you're going up to the 150-mph range at least and using tilt trains.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 19 01:01:20 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 18 22:06:10 2012.

STARSMUCKS!


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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 01:46:50 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Edwards! on Sun Feb 19 01:01:20 2012.

That's what college is for. A beret and a diploma and an attitude and you're all set to go. :)

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 07:31:45 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 01:46:50 2012.

If your kid wants a steady job that can't go to India, and a Mercedes, be a plumber.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 07:34:42 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 18 19:40:37 2012.

68/69 was 5 Amfleet plus the Great Dome for those trips last fall. Would it have been 5 or 6 otherwise ?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 07:38:22 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 18 19:45:20 2012.

I don't know title law or the terms of the contract, but Lease does not equal Sale.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 10:28:29 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:27:09 2012.

If you didn't realize that we were comparing current diesel operation and electrification, you skip read and missed something.

Stop being so disagreeable.


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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 10:50:10 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by WillD on Sat Feb 18 23:05:21 2012.

Somebody needs to explain to me why many lines in Japan, where fuel is much more expensive, de-electrified in the past twenty years and why only freight trains are electric hauled on some former JNR lines with passenger service run with DMUs.

Is the cost of running DMUs in Japan so much cheaper than loco-hauled diesel service in the US?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 10:52:55 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 00:54:35 2012.

In the case of Amtrak and Metro-North on the Hudson Line, this would not give any particular operational flexiblity.

The ability of running both current third rail equipment and overhead AC catenary equipment doesn't count as flexible to you?

Great; more apples/oranges. This was not being discussed here AFAICS.

It's about being able to use current equipment until you get new ones.

The AC/DC third-rail/catenary EMUs have a lot more physical equipment on them than your Arrow III.

That could be said for the AC only Silverliner V too. M7s have also more equipment than M1s. The difference between current DC only equipment and current AC only equipment is much greater than between current AC only equipment and current AC/DC capable equipment.

You're the one who brought up new-build HSR

Again, just for frequency of service and you're bringing up matters that have nothing to do with what I said.

Stop being so disagreeable.

Would you first before asking others?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 11:05:53 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by WillD on Sat Feb 18 23:05:21 2012.

Which is cheaper, faster to install and safer to the surrounding area?

Overhead cat or third rail?
If it turns out to be overhead, then the M8's could see service on LONG Island, to Penn Station.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:13:57 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 11:05:53 2012.

Do you ever learn instead of just flapping your gumms????

The M-8's can currently not run to NYP for two reasons.
The M-8 can not run of 25 Hz, only 60 Hz.
In NYP they would run of LIRR third rail, not Catenary.
But currently two tracks of 1.5 miles between Gate and Harold do not have third rail or the power supply and only have 25 Hz catenary over them (un-usable by M-8)

and yes this info has been posted several times.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:15:11 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 11:05:53 2012.

Assuming you put up 60 cycle catenary in Suffolk, but use 3rd rail into Penn Station. If they are given 25 cycle transformers, they go over 80 tons, which is why none of the 405 will get them.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:29:02 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 11:15:11 2012.

The M-8 will not run off Catenary when third rail is pressent.
the cars can only be fed with one power source at any time.
Once third rail shoe senses third rail voltage, the pantograph lowers automaticly.

same with M-2-M-4 and M-6

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 11:41:16 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:13:57 2012.

Oversight on my part. Thanks for the reminder.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 12:13:52 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Feb 18 20:54:22 2012.

AND those kids who do poorly in school are just chucked into the trash can. Or mostly climb into it by themselves.

LION SAYS: END public education at 8th Grade. Beyond that kids are either going to excel in school and can continue, or are simply NOT INTERESTED any more.

For those going on to High School: Fine, we'll pay for that just like we always did. For those who are not interested are directed into apprenticeship programs where they will LEARN a valuable trade, and be PAID to do so. Mostly they will learn to respect themselves, and discover what they CAN DO!

LION *does8 have a plan, but this is not the place for details.
De Tail is on the other end of de CAT.

ROAR

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 12:16:07 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 21:16:59 2012.

It looks like a third rail that somebody glued to the ceiling.

ROAR

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 12:28:58 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 07:34:42 2012.

Last fall was about when I first noticed 6 cars for many... since the 6th car is usually closed north/west of Albany (its main purpose is to alleviate the high demand NYP-ALB), it's entirely possible they simply snipped it off as part of the engine change.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 12:34:29 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 07:38:22 2012.

Yes but they are now in control of regular maintenance and "upgrades" as the article says. The article mentions that CSX's primary concern is that their freight service (which runs mostly at night when there is maybe one passenger train) is unimpeded. Putting a wire over the tracks isn't going to cause any problems with that [on the CSX part]... the Metro North part might have an issue with those tunnels between Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie, but hardly a show stopper.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 12:55:25 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Feb 18 21:16:59 2012.

its not against Ceiling, if you look at the rail holder and bracket you notice the catenary rail to be at least 16 inch from ceiling.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Sun Feb 19 13:16:50 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 01:46:50 2012.

...And don't forget the hack license!:)

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 13:58:59 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:29:02 2012.

Didn't know that. I thought the engineer did a manual cutover onto 3rd rail.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 14:00:22 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 12:28:58 2012.

Last August, it was 6 Amfleet to Montreal. The 2 AM-II's are loaded at MTL with New York City, the Am-1 ahead of the cafe is other intermediate.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 15:01:50 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 13:58:59 2012.

He does but the safeguard does drop the pantographs incase the engineer does not.


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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 16:20:16 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Feb 19 12:34:29 2012.

Yes but they are now in control of regular maintenance and "upgrades" as the article says

Awesome. That'll guarantee that nothing will get done.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 16:42:37 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Sun Feb 19 13:16:50 2012.

Do they still hand those out to English-speakers? :)

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 17:05:20 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 10:52:55 2012.

(In the case of Amtrak and Metro-North on the Hudson Line, this would not give any particular operational flexiblity) (not me)

The ability of running both current third rail equipment and overhead AC catenary equipment doesn't count as flexible to you?

Why are you quoting yourself as me?

No, it's not particularly flexible, since you asked. Especially if the pipe-dream of wires on the Hudson Line were to be viable.

It's about being able to use current equipment until you get new ones

What is?

"Diesel operation under catenary (wire, something that not only MBTA but NJT, Amtrak, Connecticut DOT and MARC do)" was not what I was discussing, certainly. Unless you're conceding that there will never be wires on the Hudson Line, and never be third rail or wires on the West Side Line?

"The AC/DC third-rail/catenary EMUs have a lot more physical equipment on them than your Arrow III"

That could be said for the AC only Silverliner V too. M7s have also more equipment than M1s. The difference between current DC only equipment and current AC only equipment is much greater than between current AC only equipment and current AC/DC capable equipment


Cosmopolitans have duplicate electrification equipment on board. That's more moving (and static) parts, and inherently more complexity than any other EMU.

"You're the one who brought up new-build HSR"

Again, just for frequency of service and you're bringing up matters that have nothing to do with what I said


But your argument is a false one. When you have longer block lengths due to operating at higher speed, that puts a limit on your possible service frequencies. You're equating new-build HSR with the Empire Corridor, when there's no equaling the two; it's apples and oranges.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 18:07:51 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 12:55:25 2012.

There are installations with less space (under 10") to the ceiling but I couldn't find clear pictures showing it.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:00:56 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 18:07:51 2012.

under 10" with what voltage???
12.5 Kv requires a 12" gap

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 19 19:30:18 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:00:56 2012.

I'm sure a competent engineer could coast it without any overhead.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 19:31:29 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 17:05:20 2012.

(not me)
Why are you quoting yourself as me?


?????
You sure?

Unless you're conceding that there will never be wires on the Hudson Line, and never be third rail or wires on the West Side Line?

?????
How can diesels run under wire if there isn't any?

Cosmopolitans

Again bringing up equipment of a total different generation?

But your argument is a false one. When you have longer block lengths due to operating at higher speed, that puts a limit on your possible service frequencies.

?????
I was talking about how a 14 trains per day line can have the potential of running more frequently in the future. Nothing to do with speed. And if you think MAS limits frequency, Tokaido Shinkansen runs 13tph peak with some of the trains less than 5 min. apart. IOW, more frequently than some of the NYC subway lines.

You're okay? Grandpa?

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 19:58:38 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:00:56 2012.

I don't know the exact measurement but the conductor rail on the right is of standard German/Swiss 15kV in this picture. There are installations in South Korea with 25kV conductor rail which look like about a foot from the ceiling too.



Is the "12.5 kV - 12 inch gap" requirement US specific? I know that the UK has changed its gap requirement for 25kV in the eighties and raised the voltage of all 6.25kV AC lines around London.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 20:05:39 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 19:58:38 2012.

even this instalation looks like about 12" when comparing insulators and bracket.

But entire conversation is moot as there is not even a foot of room in some stretches of park avenue tunnel and GCT complex. to install catenary you not only need a foot between Catenay and tunnel roof but also a foot between Catenary and the train..


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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 20:26:36 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 20:05:39 2012.

But entire conversation is moot as there is not even a foot of room in some stretches of park avenue tunnel and GCT complex.

That answers my original question quoted below, thanks. That IS what I wanted to know.

I wonder if an overhead conductor rail as used in Europe and the Far East could fit.

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 20:56:40 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 19:58:38 2012.

The question here is also what is the ceiling made of. Is this just a plaster sub-ceiling? Those bolts look like thy pass right through it to something more substantial above it. Maybe it is just some insulating/soundproofing material.

ROAR

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Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 21:05:13 2012, in response to Re: NY Senate Urges MTA To Reject Proposal To cut LIRR service into Penn Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Feb 19 19:31:29 2012.

Different signalling system. Different braking system.

ROAR

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