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NJT Multilevels

Posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:03:28 2009

I spotted a train of multilevels on NJT up here in Mahwah NJ near the Suffern NY yard.They look beautiful and sound as smooth as glass.These are the first ones I've spotted up here.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 06:18:46 2009, in response to NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:03:28 2009.

You won't be sorry if you ride them.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:21:51 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 06:18:46 2009.

Sounds like a great idea, Fred. That's a must on the transit to do list.

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Re: NJT Multilevels


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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:00:27 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 06:18:46 2009.

You will be sorry if you have to work them, however.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 07:05:34 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:00:27 2009.

Yeah I'm sure all that up and down the stairs must get tiresome.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Nilet on Fri Jun 5 07:17:39 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 07:05:34 2009.

Save money! Cancel your gym membership!

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:20:30 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Fred G on Fri Jun 5 07:05:34 2009.

I work two RVL westbounds where we have multi levels, and we have 5 out of the 6 cars open. And for whatever reason, the company won't staff a middle man on either of the trains, just the conductor and me (even when there are 25-30 guys laying in on the extra list most days). As a result, when we leave Newark, each of us have to work all 5 cars, I do the top, the conductor does the bottom. And the "middle" level is gotten by whoever gets there first.

What does this mean? On multilevels, I have to walk 425 feet and 40 steps to collect the fares out of Newark. If we had the normal equipment, we would have all 6 cars open, and gues what? I would only have to walk 255 feet and no steps, if I work to meet the conductor and we work 3 cars apiece.

And I won't even get into the fact that the anunciators have trouble trainlining and the regular PA sysytem is muffled and barely audible.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 07:31:18 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:20:30 2009.

What you are experiencing is ridiculous when there are all those men on the extra list who could rectify this situation.Your solution sounds right. Is there a suggestion box at NJT or any superior who will listen to your suggestion.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:44:16 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 07:31:18 2009.

There are no suggestion boxes at NJT, and my immediate superiors listen, but either nothing is done, or it eventually gets done a couple of years after they "look into it".

Just to show how intelligent they are at NJT, train 5446 (5:32 pm departure from Raritan Monday thru Friday) used to have 2 ticket collectors (one got on at Bound Brook, the other at Roselle Park) years ago. Then the Prudential Center opened a year and a half ago, with that train being one of the two prime trains for the 7 pm Devils games. What do they do? First, they took away one of the collectors, and the remaining one got on in Westfield. Then, a few months later, they eliminated the remaining collector. As a result, many people were riding for free on Devils nights, being that the 2 crew members could not get evererybody with 5 cars open. Finally, almost a year later, they added a collector to that train who worked from Raritan all the way in to Newark. Which is still understaffed when the Devils play. They should at least add extra guys on Devils nights.

Yup, 25-30 guys are sitting at home collecting the 40 hour guarantee while this is all going on. Because NJT doesn't want to pay them the 1 hr 7 min deadhead to go to Raritan. While hundreds of fares are not being collected. Makes perfect sense.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri Jun 5 07:58:20 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:44:16 2009.

Go IOD on paper only, I know were can fill out paper work and still work. Then go see a Doctor and tell the that yoy knees are borthing you and take it from there. I know when I work the switching jobs at 168st when G.O. are having the A train end there my knees amd feet are screeming at the end of the day. Up and down the stairs 25 to 40 times a day in 8hours does that to you.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 09:44:28 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:44:16 2009.

Awful.As a NJ resident and taxpayer supporting NJT, this kind of inefficiency makes me sick.Your suggestion here would make those runs on Devils night that much more profitable for the railroad.All those people getting free rides makes me sick.Its as if NJT deliberately wants to be in the red year after year,maybe to justify the federal subsidies?

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 11:33:49 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:44:16 2009.


Same problem can occur on the Montclair branch. None of the stations outside MSU have ticket machines, and the closely spaced stations don't allow for enough time to manually punch tickets for everyone who gets on. Last month I got on at Bay St. on a late morning multilevel train and despite only two cars being open my ticket was not punched until we were halfway to Newark.

If NJT wants to be stingy with conductors, they should put TVM's in every station.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:38:44 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 11:33:49 2009.

None of the stations outside MSU have ticket machines

I'm still surprised at how the LIRR can put TVMs at nearly station in Nassau County, while NJT seems to be rather stingy about its TVMs.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:40:32 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jun 5 07:20:30 2009.

And I won't even get into the fact that the anunciators have trouble trainlining

Aren't these the same complaints as the Comet Vs? If so, either the subcontractor for both sets is incompetent, or the MMC is living up to it's nickname...

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 12:18:58 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:38:44 2009.


Yep, fewer and fewer LIRR stations have no machines. I believe they are Greenport, Southold, Mattituck, Riverhead, Yaphank, Montauk, Amaganssett, Bridgehampton and Bellport.

Even Medford has a machine!

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jun 5 12:21:09 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 12:18:58 2009.

Bellport is lucky to even have a station stop there!! I done forgot how many times the LIRR wanted to drop Bellport, but the locals fought to keep it. I mean it can only hold ONE car, and from times I have went east on the LIRR, I have rarely seen anyone get off there, every once in a while, and it is usually 2 or 3 people MAX!!

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 12:24:27 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jun 5 12:21:09 2009.


I've never seen more than one or two get off there, and I've been on trains which skip it (the 11:35 Jamaica/Montauk does).


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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jun 5 12:27:32 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 12:24:27 2009.

3 was the absolute most I have seen there. And you also mentioned stops on the Main Line east of Ronkonkoma......hell, man, they are lucky just to be having service, especially on the weekend!! lol I think the machines would be a spoil!! I mean they pay station fare anyway when they board at them stations, imagine the stinks that would be raised if the machines went in, the person ran up and boarded as usual when they didn't have machine, and got told that they are getting slapped with an ON-BOARD fare, and they are going say from Riverhead to Jamaica or Penn or Flatbush Avenue......OUCH!!

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jun 5 12:34:36 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Jun 5 12:27:32 2009.


Riverhead deserves a machine. The other Greenport stations are lucky to even exist.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jun 5 14:37:32 2009, in response to NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:03:28 2009.

I think, up to now, they operated only as far as Warwick ... if you saw one in Mahwah, then there's hope that the Main/Bergen Lines will be getting some for the lines' entire length. I ride this line every day from Ramsey/Route 17, so getting a multilevel would be great.

Until last year, the equipment tended to be hand-me-downs from other lines. More recently, the equipment has been much better.

--Mark

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 15:05:52 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jun 5 14:37:32 2009.

You should be on one soon.I spotted the multilevel heading north to Suffern around 6 AM.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Joe V on Sat Jun 6 07:24:08 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:38:44 2009.

NJT is an anachronism to the 1960's, and is perfectly content to be Penn Central and Public Service. I think the entire outfit should be busted up into separate entities like MTA, pulled out of DOT, and with oversight. It is nothing nut a political patronage mill. The only thing that interests them is The Tunnel.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 11:35:05 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Joe V on Sat Jun 6 07:24:08 2009.


NJT is handicapped compared to the LIRR and Metro North. It doesn't have either the capacity or the control over it's NYC terminal the way the other two railroads have. This explains the obsession with THE tunnel. It's also a hodge-podge collection of many once seperate and competitive railroads, while Metro North and the LIRR had been unified entities for the better part of a century.

NJT has also expanded in the last decade. HBLR, the RiverLINE, electrification of the Boonton line in Montclair, Midtown Direct, Secaucus, etc. Except for the Wassaic extension, Metro North is as it was in the 70's. CDOT is a joke, woefully late in procuring replacements for the M2/M4's and the expansion of SLE service to Hartford and Springfield, MASS is their 2nd Ave subway.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jun 6 12:00:02 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 11:35:05 2009.

CDOT is a joke, woefully late in procuring replacements for the M2/M4's and the expansion of SLE service to Hartford and Springfield, MASS is their 2nd Ave subway.

ConnDOT stood for "CT Drops Only Tar" for the longest time. It's only recently that a serious pro-active rail person was hired as DOT commissioner. Our current Governor, M Jodi Rell is enthusiastically pro-rail whereas ex-Gov. John Rowland tried to eliminate rail (yes, he almost killed SLE) and wasted valuable time in getting us up to speed. And hey, face it, your guineas are better than our guineas.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Paul Mr. J Train on Sat Jun 6 12:35:49 2009, in response to NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:03:28 2009.

Yesterday i was ast hobken and spotted a Multilevel train on a track that was posted for a train to Suffern so they probabaly are running there too

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 12:46:53 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Fred G on Sat Jun 6 12:00:02 2009.

Can't argue with that, I'm not a conservative Republican on this issue.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 13:08:32 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jun 5 14:37:32 2009.

Too bad the MTA didn't buy any, they'd do better on the Port Jervis line, with stops fewer and far between. They are beasts accelerating with PL42's.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Fred G on Sat Jun 6 13:52:53 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 12:46:53 2009.

Our current Governor is and I'll vote for her whenever she runs for something. I give her some of the credit for turning the rail situation around, although the lion's share probably goes to grass roots pro-transit groups.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jun 6 17:10:10 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 09:44:28 2009.

Its as if NJT deliberately wants to be in the red year after year,maybe to justify the federal subsidies?

I believe you are correct. And they want us to fill out "missed transportation" forms whenever fares are missed, claiming that this will enable them to figure out where the help is needed. We tried that. It doesn't work.

I'll give you an example: There was a rule that said that that whoever closed the doors (usually the rear brake) had to do so from the furthest point back of the open part of the train. Meaning if the whole train was open, you had to close the doors from the hind end. Despite this rule, they had a couple of PM rush hours westbound RVL trains run with 6 or 7 cars with no middle man, meaning the conductor and the rear brake had to "work to meet". Which meant that at Union (the first stop after leaving Newark), both the conductor and the rear brake were in the middle of the train. We can open from anywhere, but we had to close from the hind end. Which meant that the rear brake had to dealy the train and walk all the way back to the hind end to close the doors. Of course, they did not want to delay the train, so what did they do? The rear brake only went through about a car and a half, and then went back to the hind end to get the doors. So each day the rear brake would fill out one of the "missed transportation" forms, citing the rule as the reason for missing approximately 200 people each night. So what did NJT do? Instead of adding the middle man, they changed the rule so that the brakeman can close from anywhere on the train.

What a way to run a safe railroad! BTW, I heard they actually use the forms to justify the federal subsidies.



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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jun 6 17:23:02 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:40:32 2009.

Both the Comet V's and the multilevels were delivered with crappy PA's, so I can't blame the MMC (this time). However, it's amazing how a solid set of multilevls can have trainlining problems with the PA's and the anunciators. And to think...the geniuses at NJT wanted to mix the multi levels with the other cars at some point. But I'm hearing that because the PEI's (Passenger Emergency Intercom) don't work in mixed consists, they are scrapping the idea.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jun 6 17:25:06 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jun 5 14:37:32 2009.

More recently, the equipment has been much better.

I think you meant to say the equipment has been newer, not better.


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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:04:57 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jun 5 14:37:32 2009.

Sounds almost like the way the Atlantic City line is treated. No sooner than NJT got the Comet Vs and multi-levels, the Comet IVs made their way down to the ACRL. Those cars would've been nice when they were first delivered, but now, after seeing the newer cars arrive, ACRL riders can't help but feel stiffed. (And don't get me started on the GP-40s; I'd hope they would get replaced sooner rather than later).

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jun 6 23:07:40 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:04:57 2009.

Oh, don't worry. As soon as the ALP-45DPs show up, the PL42ACs will be so commonplace on the ACL you'll get sick of 'em in an instant

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jun 6 23:09:03 2009, in response to NJT Multilevels, posted by docstox on Fri Jun 5 06:03:28 2009.

They look beautiful and sound as smooth as glass

That's some bit of hyperbole, eh? I couldn't have brought myself to describe the multilevels in such glowing terms

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:15:16 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jun 6 23:07:40 2009.

I was already sick of the PL42AC engines after dealing with them all the time on Amtrak's Keystone Line... Besides they're already running on the ACES line.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Ken S. on Sat Jun 6 23:35:48 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:15:16 2009.

Those are the GE P40/P42 diesels. The PL42ACs are built by Alstom.

My Site & Forum.
Please use your SubChat or NYCTF handle when signing up for the forum to avoid being denied registration.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 6 23:51:49 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:04:57 2009.

Doesn't the Atlantic City line get 24/7 service now?

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:04:01 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:15:16 2009.

Amtrak has no PL42ACs. (Not yet, anyhow.)

However, I can understand the confusion by appearance, if not by designation (close to P42DC, yes). The exterior of GE's P40/P42DC and Prima/Alstom/EMD's PL42AC are both Cesar Vergara designs, too, so there's even more of a family resemblance.





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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:16:54 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jun 6 23:51:49 2009.

No. Where did you hear that?

Weekdays, there's a three-hour gap in Philly departures, between 1:20 and 4:20 in the AM, and a two-hour gap departing AC from 12:46 to 2:45 AM (with a few extra Friday PM departures from AC at 11:47 PM and 1:45 AM). On weekends, there's a four-hour gap in the AM. Frequency varies from hourly to bi-hourly.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:32:05 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jun 6 11:35:05 2009.

NJT is handicapped compared to the LIRR and Metro North. It doesn't have either the capacity or the control over it's NYC terminal the way the other two railroads have. This explains the obsession with THE tunnel

No, that's not really a good explanation. NJDOT could have sued for a share of control in NYP, long before Penn Central, or Amtrak or Conrail came into existence. NJDOT's been in the passenger rail service since its creation, funding the CNJ, E-L and even PRR commuter services; the state controlled commuter rail before its creation, too. (One could call them the original "pointless arrow", based on that logo of theirs.)

Both Metro-North and LIRR started themselves as hodge-podges; this is why LIRR still has several terminals, all save one not in Manhattan, and why Metro-North is split between the MTA and ConnDOT.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:34:18 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Jun 5 11:38:44 2009.

What's so great about TVMs? Their ability to put people out of work . . . ?

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:37:45 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jun 6 17:23:02 2009.

That's nonsense. Scrap the PEI altogether. Their only use is still when passengers get locked in the bathroom, right? (Reminds me of the "call attendant" button on airliners.) The other railroads on the NEC that use bilevels (MARC, MBTA) mix them with single-levels (VRE doesn't anymore IIRC; they're off the NEC anyhow) . . .

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Transit Jeff on Sun Jun 7 04:58:23 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sat Jun 6 23:04:57 2009.

I fought long and hard to get the Comet IV's on the ACRL. It took me that long to get them down here. Prior to that, we had real junk. South Jersey has always been a step child or poor orphan when it came to hand-me-down equipment. And that always went for buses as well as rail cars. I've tried unsuccessfully for several years to get some Comet V's in the mix on the ACRL, but no luck. And the funny thing is the crews hate the Comet V's and don't want any parts of them on the ACRL. They're certainly not helping matters in my efforts to get some Comet V's on the ACRL. They've given me several reasons why they dislike them.



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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Jun 7 06:52:18 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:37:45 2009.

The only problem is that since NJT refuses to staff the trains properly, and you cannot see into those cars, they feel "safer" if the PEI works. In case of a fight, medical emergency, etc.

Their only use is still when passengers get locked in the bathroom, right?

Mainly, but it also has been used by people standing by the quarter point doors at low level platforms because the PA was too low and muffled, or they weren't paying attention to the announcements and they were about to miss their stop.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Jun 7 06:55:43 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 04:34:18 2009.

Come on now...you know damn well that NJT wasn't going to staff a station like Westfield with a ticket agent after the weekday morning rush regardless, so the TVM's make it easier on the trainmen.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Joe V on Sun Jun 7 09:29:01 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Jun 7 06:55:43 2009.

Most RVL stations deserve TVM's. There is no longer any excuse why NJT can't sell tickets over the internet. If SEPTA can do it, it cannot be hard to do.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by ctrabs74 on Sun Jun 7 09:52:46 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Ken S. on Sat Jun 6 23:35:48 2009.

I am now aware of that... Maybe to me, the PL42AC looks too similar to the P40/P42.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 11:28:02 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by ctrabs74 on Sun Jun 7 09:52:46 2009.

Thank this guy for both of 'em.

Cesar Vergara


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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 11:30:42 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sun Jun 7 06:52:18 2009.

The only problem is that since NJT refuses to staff the trains properly, and you cannot see into those cars, they feel "safer" if the PEI works. In case of a fight, medical emergency, etc

So is the PEI going in on all Comets that remain in service as well? It'd only serve to use it in the instance of assault or illness if there are police and/or medics on the train.

it also has been used by people standing by the quarter point doors at low level platforms because the PA was too low and muffled, or they weren't paying attention to the announcements and they were about to miss their stop

So much for the younger generation learning from the elder. With the Arrows, listening for the trainman's announcement where he says "end doors out" was a given.

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Re: NJT Multilevels

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jun 7 11:35:37 2009, in response to Re: NJT Multilevels, posted by Transit Jeff on Sun Jun 7 04:58:23 2009.

I fought long and hard to get the Comet IV's on the ACRL. It took me that long to get them down here. Prior to that, we had real junk

Yeah . . . must be mere coincidence that it took the Comet Is and IBs being retired, eh? (Those were supposed to be retired when the Comet Vs went into service, but the Vs turned out to be highly problematic. Aside from minor problems such as needing to duck-tape the seat check holders down, you have major problems with the EPIC brake system and slow-moving "long doors".)

the funny thing is the crews hate the Comet V's and don't want any parts of them on the ACRL. They're certainly not helping matters in my efforts to get some Comet V's on the ACRL. They've given me several reasons why they dislike them.

Maybe you should listen to them instead of worrying about foaming over Comet Vs on the ACL. They are the ones that have to work with them.

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