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| (148303) | |
NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005 Out of interest, where, and what are the sharpest curve radii (on the main running lines) to be found on the various divisions of the NYC subway? |
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| (148306) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:33:38 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. Any of the elevated lines that turn street corners would qualify for this, but IMHO the tightest curves in the system are on the 7 entering/exiting Queensboro Plaza towards 45 Road, and on the J just west of Alabama Avenue.I await the opportunity to stand corrected. I'm a little bit behind the CURVE here. Moo! |
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| (148308) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Fri Sep 30 20:35:49 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. Must be one of the loops, I guess.Other sharp curves are the 7 south of Queensboro Plaza and between 45 Rd and Hunters Point Av (both near 90°). Myrtle-Wyckoff (M) and Brighton Beach (Q) are also quite sharp. |
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| (148309) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 30 20:37:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:33:38 2005. I'd vote for the 2/5 line north of E Tremont. It certainly was the loudest curve back in the day. |
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| (148312) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:59:08 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 30 20:37:19 2005. LOUDEST curve? My votes are south of GCT on 4/5/6 and PATH WTC station loop pre-9/11! |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by joe c on Fri Sep 30 21:03:07 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. The S curve on the BMT Broadway going into City Hall is a very sharpcurve. til next time |
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| (148315) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Fri Sep 30 21:03:47 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:59:08 2005. 7 south of QBP is loudest to me, especially with R36's (although R62A's aren't much better). |
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| (148320) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 21:08:00 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by R42 4787 on Fri Sep 30 21:03:47 2005. How about R10s on the curve from Liberty Ave. el to Rockaway ROW? |
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| (148326) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 30 21:19:46 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:59:08 2005. Those were underground. They probably sounded louder than they were. For sheer decibal level, I'll stick with E. Tremont, in the early 1980's. |
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| (148331) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. While the sharpest curve anywhere is in the 238 Street yard, those on the main lines can line up as follows:1) Second curve (left hand curve), entering City Hall loop on the #6. 2) Northbound #2 and #3 between Park Place and Chambers Street. Can't be more than maybe 5 chains radius. 3) "N" and "W" line north of Cortlandt Street (reverse curve) 4) "D" and "M" line as it enters the tunnel south of 36 Street-4 Ave. 5) #2 and #5 line north of Simpson Street. While not the sharpest angle-wise, it makes up for that in radius, or lack thereof. 6) #2 and #5 north of East Tremont Avenue 7) "J" northbound entering Cypress Hills 8) #7 southbound leaving Queensboro Plaza 9) #2 and #3 line southbound, entering Fulton Street 10) Northbound "J" line entering Chambers Street (reverse curve). There are many others also worthy of honorable mention, such as * "M" line leaving Myrtle Avenue * "J" and "Z" line at Crescent Street, and also at Alabama Avenue * "L" line southbound leaving Graham Avenue * "A" line southbound leaving 175th Street * "A" and "C" line south of Chambers St-H&M * #2 and #3 line just east of Clark Street * #5 line northbound entering 149 St-Mott Avenue * The South Ferry Loops wayne |
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| (148335) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:44:55 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:59:08 2005. You should have heard the PATH trains in the OLD Hudson Terminal. Positively MOOSICAL, especially the Black Cars (which were work units when I heard them), and the K Stock, which put up fierce weeping and gnashing of wheels.Lately the track sprayers have been OFF on the East Side IRT, making for some lovely vulture-music from the R142s, especially at Fulton Street. wayne |
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| (148340) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 21:52:32 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005. That's a good list! |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Fri Sep 30 22:20:57 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005. What about Brighton Beach (Q)? |
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| (148399) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Fri Sep 30 22:22:54 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. The design limit for IRT rolling stock is 90' radius andfor B-Division it is 125' radius. |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 30 22:23:47 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Jeff H. on Fri Sep 30 22:22:54 2005. 75' cars = 145' minimum radius |
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| (148419) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 22:40:32 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by R42 4787 on Fri Sep 30 22:20:57 2005. I would say that the curves entering Stillwell (especially that on the "F") are sharper than the one at Brighton Beach. Not to take anything away from Brighton Beach's curve...it compares favorably to other BMT curves like between 39 Ave-Beebe and QBP, n. of W 8 Street on the "F", I would definitely rank it in the top quartile (25%) of the system's sharpest curves.wayne |
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| (148453) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 23:46:09 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005. Now, which one is the all-time screecher? |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by aem7ac on Fri Sep 30 23:48:58 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 23:46:09 2005. Turnaround loop at Park St. Green Line, inside platform. That one is 45'. You can't even fit an artec car end to end within that loop!AEM7AC |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 1 01:43:21 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Train Dude on Fri Sep 30 22:23:47 2005. 145' I did not know that! I was under the (possible mis-)impressionthat the ruling radius on the BMT was the curve n/o City Hall and that was 125' |
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| (148552) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by stephenk on Sat Oct 1 05:56:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005. Nice list. However, do you happen to know the actual radius of some of these curves, and (this might be asking too much) the corresponding speed limts. |
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| (148557) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 07:23:22 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by aem7ac on Fri Sep 30 23:48:58 2005. Turnaround loop at Park St. Green Line, inside platform. That one is 45'. You can't even fit an artec car end to end within that loop!Was that one originally meant to be a loop, or was the line meant to continue? |
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| (148559) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:35:24 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:44:55 2005. I forgot about Fulton Street! Also the portal curve at 3 Av/E 149 in the Bronx! A veritable COWcophony of wheel music! |
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| (148560) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:40:57 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Jeff H. on Sat Oct 1 01:43:21 2005. That changed 35 years ago on the occasion of the R-7A clearance tests, in anticipation of the arrival of 75' cars. However you are correct. As designed, both the BMT and IND specified 125 as the minimum radii for curves on their systems.P.S. I think the absolute minimum would be 90 degrees as 89 would be a *decreasing* radius and therefore nonfeasible... |
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| (148565) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 07:50:10 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:40:57 2005. P.S. I think the absolute minimum would be 90 degrees as 89 would be a *decreasing* radius and therefore nonfeasible...There's a difference between curve radius and the angle the curve goes through. Curve radius is about how tight the curve is. For instance, at a curve radius of 90', you travel about 141'4½" to go around 90°. At a curve radius of 45', you travel about 70'8¼" to go around 90°. |
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| (148566) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:52:24 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 07:50:10 2005. OK. But how does truck play and car overhang figure into this? Plus I really did think 89 deg. was decreasing, but I stand corrected...Good thing I don't teach math. Moo! |
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| (148578) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Bronx Danny on Sat Oct 1 08:38:04 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Fri Sep 30 20:22:58 2005. This question has come up several times before. If you restrict the discussion to multi-track ROWs, then the 7 south of QBP is probably the sharpest. But if you include individual tracks (where northbound and southbound diverge) in revenue service, the answer has to be the northbound 5 just south of 149 St.-GC. |
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| (148586) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 09:18:59 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:52:24 2005. Plus I really did think 89 deg. was decreasing, but I stand corrected...Curve radii are measured in feet (') not degrees (°) - and yes, the symbols are horrendously small superscript blurs to me too! They're radii in the normal sense of the word - the distance from the centre of a cricle or arc to any point on the circumference of that circle or arc. If you can picture the circle and imagine what happens to the tightness of the curvature as you increase or decrease the radius, you've got the concept! OK. But how does truck play and car overhang figure into this? The car body is rigid and effectively a straight line. The trucks are two points along which the entire straight car body pivots as it goes round a curve. Let's take two really absurd examples: 1) 60' car, trucks centred exactly at either end. 2) 60' car, single truck at centre point. In case 1, there is no overhang at beyond the ends of the trucks. Instead, there is a very large overhang in between them. As the car goes round the curve, the middle overhangs the inside of the curve. In case 2, there is no overhang in the middle, but (almost) a 30' overhang at either end. as th car corners, the inside of the curve isn't overhung at all, but the ends wildly overhang the outside of the curve. On a normal transit car, the trucks are usually centred somewhere between the extreme cases, with the ends moving out on curves and the "belly" moving in. Of course, moving the trucks alters how much the overhang is on the inside or on the outside (which can have huge implications on clearances). Generally speaking, if you want to minimise the amount the ends sweep out (to make it easier to walk between cars), you put the trucks nearer the car ends than if you are merely working to weight distributions and clearance envelopes. |
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| (148591) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 09:43:50 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 09:18:59 2005. Now I've got it! Actually I learned about car overhang the *HARD* way at Branford a few years back. I was in an operator training class and they had me moving 629 into the barn. There was a bobcat being used to shovel snow, and it had been parked near the tracks. I thought it was far enough from the rails for 629 to clear it, but as I crept into the curve to enter the barn, the rear of the car ran right up against the bobcat!Thank God there was no damage to either trolley or bobcat, but I never forgot the principle of car overhang after that. I haven't been back to Branford since then..I keep thinking they'll hit *ME* with a trolley car! |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 09:53:03 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:40:57 2005. Actually, you are incorrect unless you have documentation that superceeds mine. According to the "NYCT Passenger Car Data" book, by the New Car Engineering Department, (page #15) the minimum radius curve for 75' cars is, indeed, 145 feet. |
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| (148595) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 09:56:41 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 09:53:03 2005. You're right. I was talking about what the minimums were BEFORE the 75' cars were ordered, IOW, as the ststems themselves were originally built in the teens, twenties and thirties.The R-7A test was to locate those places in the system where work needed to be done to ease clearances so 75' cars could fit... |
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| (148609) | |
NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:18:39 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 09:56:41 2005. Well now that we've established that the minimum horizontal radii for various size NYCT cars. would anyone like to guess what the minimum vertical radius is for:A) 50' cars ________ B) 60' cars ________ C) 75' cars ________ BTW - there is such a specification. |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by BIE on Sat Oct 1 10:38:07 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:18:39 2005. What in the limiting factor? |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:40:11 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by BIE on Sat Oct 1 10:38:07 2005. Limiting factors would be the construction of the car, adhesion factor and, of course, gravity. |
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| (148638) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 10:43:47 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:18:39 2005. Total guess:A) 45' B) 65' C) 75' |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:51:27 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 10:43:47 2005. I won't post the answer until much later today but visualize what the vertical radius actually is. It's the radius of the curve formed as the track changes vertal elevation. |
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| (148646) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by AcelaExpress2005 on Sat Oct 1 10:57:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:33:38 2005. .. just east of the Crescent st. station.. there's a deep curve there, too. |
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| (148653) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sat Oct 1 11:05:49 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Sep 30 21:52:32 2005. You want loud curves and turnouts? Ride the 6 Train from Pelham Bay to 125 Street make sure you bring your ear plugs! I dont see how anybody who rides that 6 train 5 days a week hasnt started losing thier hearing yet with those R142A's screaming and banging the way they do at that. |
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| (148654) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Oct 1 11:08:04 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:51:27 2005. I won't post the answer until much later today but visualize what the vertical radius actually is. It's the radius of the curve formed as the track changes vertal elevation.Okay, if I've done my sums correctly, an R68 would bottom out on a sustained vertical radius of about 26'6", and an R142 at about 17'6". Something tells me the MTA wouldn't like the idea of getting anywhere near that kind of vertical radius. |
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| (148776) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Oct 1 16:08:03 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 07:52:24 2005. There are some great posts here which I have been reading.A long time ago, I remember looking at "turning circles" printed on punch-out cards. These were produced as part of an air combat historical board game. You and your opponent picked out the airplanes you wanted to portray in a dogfight, and then matched each airplane to its set of turning circles, depending on the maximum instantaneous or sustained g forces the airplane could withstand, its thrust-to-weight ratio (it's nice to be at least at unity) and modifiers listed on a table for things like a delta wing (bleeds energy in tight turns - not good), forward canards (improves handling at slower speeds) and other factors. I still remember a simple formula I used to get the number of degrees one could traverse in a 10 second move: Z/M * 9.6881955 where Z = number of g's, M = mach number. It produced results very close to the real thing. |
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| (148945) | |
NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ - Answer |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 21:44:03 2005, in response to NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:18:39 2005. For those who care:50' and 60' cars = +/- 2000 feet radius 75' cars = +/- 2500 foot radius |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Oct 1 22:06:46 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Sep 30 20:59:08 2005. Stand at the forward end of the S/B platform at 149 St-Mott Avenue and listen to the #5 trains come round the curve on the opposite side. If you get a 142 whose wheels are a little crispy, you'll wind up with pierced ear drums.wayne |
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| (148970) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Oct 1 22:10:36 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 30 23:46:09 2005. My all-time noisemakers are between Park and Chambers, and at 149 St-Mott Avenue. Also City Hall loop.wayne |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 22:12:27 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Oct 1 22:06:46 2005. I've done that! That is a screamer. But the old K (MP-52)and PA cars looping in and out of the pre-9/11 WTC loop has that Bronx location beat. Just another thing about the WTC, like so many, many other things, are gone forever. |
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| (148978) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Oct 1 22:16:13 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Oct 1 22:12:27 2005. IAWTP-w- |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Oct 1 22:17:48 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Railman718 on Sat Oct 1 11:05:49 2005. Or how about the Red Line through Harvard Square in Boston. That's a hell of a sharp turn! And I think that was part of the extension to Alewife completed in the 1980s (correct me if I'm wrong). |
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| (148999) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 1 22:50:33 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by stephenk on Sat Oct 1 05:56:19 2005.  However, do you happen to know the actual radius of some of these curves Sorry, this is a *real* railroad, not HO scale. Curves are measured in degrees, not radius. Still I recall that the numbers were posted on SubTalk way back when. 
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| (149008) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 1 23:03:41 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 1 22:50:33 2005. Turning circles are measured in radii, though, and it would be useless to use "degrees" since a circle has 360 of them. Curves are also measured in degrees on model railroads. What's your point? |
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| (149009) | |
Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 1 23:04:18 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 1 22:50:33 2005. Turning circles are measured in radii, though, and it would be useless to use "degrees" since a circle has 360 of them. Curves are also measured in degrees on model railroads. What's your point? |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius |
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Posted by //ROOT on Sat Oct 1 23:33:05 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Sep 30 21:37:14 2005. While the sharpest curve anywhere is in the 238 Street yard...Anyone have a track map of 238 Street yard, or know where I could see a picture of this "sharpest curve"? |
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Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Sun Oct 2 00:18:20 2005, in response to Re: NYC Minimum Curve Radius QUIZ, posted by Train Dude on Sat Oct 1 10:40:11 2005. An additional limiting factor is the vertical travel limit ofthe coupler yoke. |
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