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Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010 Amtrak unveils long-termplan for high-speed rail The Associated Press • September 28, 2010 PHILADELPHIA — Amtrak is unveiling a $117 billion plan it hopes will bring high-speed rail to the East Coast by 2040, drastically reducing travel times along the congested corridor. Amtrak President Joseph Boardman says the Next- Gen High Speed Rail line would reduce the travel time between Washington, D.C., and New York City from 162 minutes to 96 minutes. The travel time between New York and Boston would go from 215 minutes to 84 minutes. At a news conference at Philadelphia's 30th Street Station on Tuesday, Boardman said the plan is in the visionary stage, and there's no funding plan in place. About 12 million riders a year use Amtrak along the northeast corridor. Amtrak expects the high-speed trains could accommodate about 33.7 million passengers by 2040. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Sep 28 15:04:40 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. Do they plan to have this train serve 30th Street? I wonder how they plan on doing this. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Sep 28 15:38:53 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. 2040? Jeez! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 28 15:41:20 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Sep 28 15:38:53 2010. 2040? Jeez!I heard that on my car radio, I almost swerved.. Gives them 30 years to build it? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 15:43:00 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. Like to see it but I will most likely be dead by then :( But 30 years?? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Sep 28 15:43:47 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 15:43:00 2010. 20 years to get funding and for all the studies to be completed, then 10 years for construction? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 15:46:01 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Sep 28 15:43:47 2010. Probably and with Amtrak's issues will there even be an Amtrak then? Congress always has an issue funding them it seems. :( |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:57:12 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. Total nonsense. An hour and 36 minutes NYP-WAS (average speed 140 mph), never mind an average speed of 153 mph NYP-BOS? Not even needed. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:58:35 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 28 15:41:20 2010. All I can do is laugh, nowadays. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Tue Sep 28 15:59:02 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 28 15:41:20 2010. 10 years to find the money and do the EIS.10 years to build it. My guess is it's not ENOUGH time. In 40 years, they haven't even been able to get the money (not Amtrak's fault, BTW) to do the signaling and power upgrades that would improve service on the existing NEC. These future fantasies are fun, but I wish they would focus their energy on what is reasonably doable in the next 10 years. Even this isn't cheap, but it's doable, doesn't require a new ROW, and would benefit not only intercity service but commuter service as well. The first two are essential, the rest very helpful but less so: 1. Upgrade to constant tension catenary. 2. Upgrade signaling to permit 150 mph operation to max extent possible. 3. Upgrade/replace Baltimore tunnels and approaches. 4. If possible, build fourth track between Washington and Baltimore to permit faster nonstop service with denser schedule of commuter trains between Baltimore and Washington. 5. Strengthen/replace bridge between Havre de Grace and Perryville to permit higher speed operation. 6. Bypass or realign Zoo interlocking. 7. Bypass or realign Elizabeth S-curve. 8. Finish ARC tunnel project to improve capacity of Penn Station and reduce related congestion, delays. 9. Work out whatever needs to be worked out with Metro North to permit higher speed operation between New Rochelle and New Haven, and install a flying junction at New Rochelle. It may not get you from New York to Boston in 84 minutes, but it would be a major improvement and it is all achievable. It will still cost billions, but a hell of a lot less. And in the meantime, how about running a few nonstops NY/DC and NY/BOS. They've done it a few times, they seemed really popular (were often sold out) and then stopped. I'm sure there was a reason, but I don't know what it was. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:59:07 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Tue Sep 28 15:04:40 2010. Obviously not. Its a 140-mph average speed they want between New York and Washington. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 16:01:30 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Brighton Private on Tue Sep 28 15:59:02 2010. How much would Metro-North and Connecticut DOT really want to have all their main line plus trains upgraded to allow a few Acela Express trains to hit 150 mph, and assuming as fast as possible around the curves (they don't allow active-tilt operation)?ARC will not improve capacity at Penn Station. We've been over that already on many other threads. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 16:33:18 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:57:12 2010. An hour and 36 minutes NYP-WAS (average speed 140 mph), never mind an average speed of 153 mph NYP-BOS? Not even needed.Really? So we should subject passengers to hours and hours of delays because we're too cheap to adequately invest in the infrastructure to support the population? Or would you rather we spend twice as much money on airports and roads to move all those people? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 18:04:29 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:59:07 2010. Obviously yes if you'd bothered to do any reading. The plan calls for a phased construction program which would see 200mph trains between Baltimore and Wilmington, and between Philadelphia and New York by 2030. Those trains would serve 30th St Station until such time as a 7.5 mile north-south HSL tunnel through Center City Philadelphia could be constructed with an accompanying station near Market East.Unfortunately I don't see anywhere within the document where it breaks out what the costs and travel time reductions of the various would be individually. I'd be interested to see where we'd be in 2030 with just the NY-PHL and Wilmington-Baltimore improvements. It's possible that despite ZOO and NY Penn's low speeds we may be able to get away with never doing the Philly and NYC dedicated tunnels and simply relying on higher speeds on the dedicated HSLs to make up the time. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Bill West on Tue Sep 28 18:05:37 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. A cost of $1000 per ticket even when spread over 10 years?? You could put them in chartered executive jets for less.Bill |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Jeromeline on Tue Sep 28 18:37:46 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Sep 28 15:38:53 2010. Earlier than the fully completed SAS! |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Dan on Tue Sep 28 18:38:55 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 18:04:29 2010. And just where is Amtrak going to get the $117 Billion needed for this project? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 28 18:50:36 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:57:12 2010. Of course it's needed. I will replace flying between those points, which is really what is not needed. |
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Correction -Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 28 18:51:12 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 15:57:12 2010. Of course it's needed. It will replace flying between those points, which is really what is not needed. |
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Re: Correction -Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 28 18:53:56 2010, in response to Correction -Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 28 18:51:12 2010. I would love to ride a faster train between PHL and Durham, NC.The trip is murder, now. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Sep 28 19:20:27 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Brighton Private on Tue Sep 28 15:59:02 2010. ARC to me is not necessary. Also, from what I heard those NY/Philly/DC Acela's weren't all that popular...though I want to see the numbers for myself |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Sep 28 19:28:06 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. Really? Really? Let's get some HSR in some other parts of the country. Transportation in the northeast is up to par. Or hell, let's even get some regular rail service in some other parts. A regional network in Florida, Texas, something. This to me is a waste of money that needs to be better spent elsewhere.Yes, the NE needs this, but not right now. Other parts of the country don't have even close to what they need. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 19:57:50 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Dan on Tue Sep 28 18:38:55 2010. Over the next 30 years that's just 4 billion dollars a year. Reallocating some FHWA funding, including for those "private" tollways in Colorado, Texas, and elsewhere, which only serve to increase congestion, would easily cover the expenditure. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 20:44:12 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Brighton Private on Tue Sep 28 15:59:02 2010. Most of those upgrade programs are already encompassed by Amtrak's as-yet unfunded NEC Master Plan for infrastructure. It seems quite likely that Amtrak is releasing these plans to set a high opening bid for their future funding levels. Claiming to require 120 billion dollars over the next 30 years may seem excessive, but the 10 billion dollar NEC improvement plan filled with those boring but essential improvements is unlikely to attract much attention. This way they can attract some attention and haggle their way down to getting the Master Plan fully funded, hopefully with some leftover funding.Hell, once CAHSR proves to be an amazing success everyone will be clamoring for funds to build their own. Having a plan ready to go for such a dense corridor as the NEC would give us a leg up on other corridors. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 21:16:31 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Sep 28 19:28:06 2010. No, the northeast really doesn't need this. It's too much of an extravagance, especially in a market where they're beating air travel in an incomplete form. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 28 21:19:11 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 28 15:43:00 2010. I don't understand the thirty year time frame. Thirty years AGO, SNCF in France did the Paris-Lyon opening segment of the TGV system in less than eight years. It was on time, within its budget, and SNCF made millions out of the new service right away. Those (then) orange trainsets made money right out of the box, and they are STILL competitive with the airlines in Europe for all trips of 500 miles or less.I'll say it again: why is it so difficult for us to have this here? , just 30 minutes off the (current) advertised, and HIGHLY competitive with flying from, say, LHR-PDG. It's a public (SNCF)/private (the Eurostar consortium) partnership, and now that they've got the kinks ironed out, it really WORKS. Such a system is well within our capabilities here, and it shouldn't take three decades to build and operate. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Tue Sep 28 23:02:11 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 28 21:19:11 2010. I'll say it again: why is it so difficult for us to have this here?It's partially because building a high speed rail line is still seen as a "special interest" instead of a normal piece of the transportation network like an airport or a new highway. In contrast, there's less of a debate to the merits of railway development in France, and nearly every region is begging for their own high speed rail line to connect to Paris for development. OTOH, FWIW, the German high-speed network has been held up by perpetual lawsuits fearing that the lines would "ruin" the countryside. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Sep 28 23:04:43 2010, in response to Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by seabeachexpress on Tue Sep 28 14:56:39 2010. Why do people even bother with these stupid pipe dream plans. It's clear that there is absolutely no political will or even majority demand for such a project. Even if people thought that government was capable of investing for the public good I doubt they would even think it could possibly benefit them. The age of doing big things is over. for the next couple of decades be prepared to count on only those forms of transportation that don't require any public infrastructure support. Just be sure to check your local free grazing laws. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Sep 29 01:48:04 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 19:57:50 2010. those "private" tollways in Colorado, Texas, and elsewhere, which only serve to increase congestion hey now Take Pride,
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 02:54:48 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Dan on Tue Sep 28 18:38:55 2010. Oh, is that all it costs, $260 million per mile?!? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Wed Sep 29 10:05:41 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 28 16:01:30 2010. My understanding is that while ARC will not improve platform capacity at Penn Station it should reduce congestion on the approaches and improve schedule reliability. That is what I was referring to. If I am wrong, OK. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Wed Sep 29 10:11:07 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Sep 28 21:19:11 2010. The biggest difference is political philosophy toward government spending on infrastructure. Related to that is the much more centralized authority of the French government.But geography is a big factor. Most of the high speed lines are radial from Paris and interwoven with a heavily used rail system. In the US, we are talking about a small number of disconnected potential high-speed corridors that will not -- and cannot, given our different geography -- form a national network. Consequently, it is not perceived as a national priority, especially in a Senate where, as we have seen, a handful of senators representing mostly rural states can block almost anything. Real progress on high-speed lines will need major regional initiatives. For this reason, it will not surprise me at all if California succeeds where the federal government has failed, provided it can find a way to come up with the money. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by vfrt on Wed Sep 29 10:15:51 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 02:54:48 2010. Stop complaining! It's only $10,958,904 per day of taxpayers money for Amtrak to play with. Who cares if there's not a large enough market for such services. It's only our money and who the f*ck are we to complain! Anf of course that measly $117B will grow to $200B pretty quickly.$260M per mile is roughly $49,242 per foot! |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 12:42:07 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Brighton Private on Wed Sep 29 10:05:41 2010. No, it's not going to do that either. The plan is not to move trains out of NYP into the new cavern, but to add trains once it opens and keep NYP and the 100-year-old North River Tunnels as strained as they presently are. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 12:52:12 2010, in response to Correction -Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by italianstallion on Tue Sep 28 18:51:12 2010. Building HSR to "replace flying" is the wrong focus. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *duplicate NEC* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 12:56:35 2010, in response to Re: Correction -Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *east coast* HSR (by 2040), posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Sep 28 18:53:56 2010. Regrettably, this porky overpriced vision is for duplicating the Northeast Corridor, not the entire east coast. It'd make sense to build an actual HSR corridor along I-85 to serve Durham (or close to it), but that'd be longer-term and hopefully a tenth of the cost of the duplicate NEC. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Sep 29 15:20:15 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 18:04:29 2010. Interesting. That's a very strange circuitous alignment from New York to Boston. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Sep 29 15:24:56 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 28 16:33:18 2010. Remember this is the guy who wants everyone to go to Communipaw on a boat. Or maybe Susquehanna Transfer on a bus. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 17:25:42 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Sep 29 15:24:56 2010. You don't seem to have the same problem with people going to Atlantic Terminal on a subway. Besides, the status quo of the RVL is worse nowadays than it was; imagine the superiority of actually having the PATH connector at "Communipaw" that was supposed to be there almost a century ago.You build-less-at-all-costs folk can only call names and use stupid imaginary scenarios. Try and talk the protestors in Stuttgart into accepting Stuttgart 21 now. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 17:26:50 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Sep 28 19:20:27 2010. They were about as popular as the nonstop Metroliner MUs, which had 90-mph overall average speeds. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Sep 29 18:55:52 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 17:26:50 2010. That means nothing to me |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *duplicate NEC* HSR (by 2040) |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Sep 29 19:18:05 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term nonsense plan for *duplicate NEC* HSR (by 2040), posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 12:56:35 2010. Sounds like a plan. Hope I live to see it. I'm 68. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 19:37:37 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Sep 29 18:55:52 2010. Does the fact that they were both short-lived also mean nothing? |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Sep 30 03:46:08 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 17:25:42 2010. Subways are superior to ferries.If you want RVL trains to end at the waterfront, then expand the Waterfront Connection. |
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Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 30 03:59:45 2010, in response to Re: Amtrak unveils long-term plan for high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 29 17:25:42 2010. You SPOTTED the German! Fritz! Tell him what he's won!
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