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| Penn Station 100th Anniversary? (974008) | |
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Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 1 18:26:42 2010 I know the first PRR long distance train from NYP ran in November 1910. The LIRR supposedly had already been operating out of NYP for some time before that. Anyone have any idea of the exact date service began? |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Sep 1 18:35:00 2010, in response to Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 1 18:26:42 2010. September 8, 1910 |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 1 19:23:58 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Sep 1 18:35:00 2010. Thank you. I thought that it was sometime this month. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Doctor B on Thu Sep 2 00:11:02 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Sep 1 18:35:00 2010. September 8, 1910...and the North River Tunnels still rise and fall with the tide. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 2 07:49:34 2010, in response to Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 1 18:26:42 2010. I wonder if there will be any commemoration next Wednesday. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 2 10:26:46 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 2 07:49:34 2010. That might be up to the owner.By contrast, NJT held no centennial celebration for Hoboken Terminal back in 2007. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Thu Sep 2 13:08:20 2010, in response to Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by murray1575 on Wed Sep 1 18:26:42 2010. It's a sad centennial for the Late Great Pennsylvania Station, above ground.But underground, the continued vitality -- and absolute necessity -- of something provided to us 100 years ago, is astounding. And it requires us to ask: What great work of equivalent usefulness (to say nothing of great beauty) are we building to leave to our posterity 100 years hence? |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 2 13:25:36 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 2 10:26:46 2010. If the original Penn Station were still standing, chances are they could justify such a celebration. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Thu Sep 2 16:33:13 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 2 13:25:36 2010. That was my thinking...the only thing left from the real Penn Station is the location... |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 2 17:16:12 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Thu Sep 2 16:33:13 2010. I don't think anyone wants to highlight the single worst decision in New York architectural history. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Sep 4 05:37:37 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 2 17:16:12 2010. While it was the single worst decision ever made, it needs to be remembered it was done in a time with a completely different mentality as opposed to what would be in place just a few years later (though that said, as magnificent as that station clearly was, it's replacement was not completely bad, and I suspect the original would have been eventually altered quite a bit even if most of the original had not been torn down).Ironically, had the architect of the original Penn Station allowed for building of office towers within the station boundaries, the original station (or at least some form of it beyond what actually does still stand) might very well be still standing in 2010. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by murray1575 on Sat Sep 4 07:35:22 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Sep 4 05:37:37 2010. Don't forget that when the original station was conceived and built no one could have predicted the extent of the rapid growth which occurred in the following years (in no small part due to Penn Station and Grand Central's existence). When the station opened no subway line even existed to serve it; that didn't happen until 1918 (IRT) and 1932 (IND). Nor could anyone have predicted the other factors such as the rapid expansion of auto and air travel after WWII which led to the decline in fortunes of the railroads. However I agree that somehow something could have been done to preserve at least part of the station as was done with Grand Central. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Sat Sep 4 12:32:42 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Sep 4 05:37:37 2010. > While it was the single worst decision ever made, it needs to be> remembered it was done in a time with a completely different > mentality as opposed to what would be in place just a few years > later (though that said, as magnificent as that station clearly > was, it's replacement was not completely bad, and I suspect the > original would have been eventually altered quite a bit even if > most of the original had not been torn down). Indeed, the original station had already been altered considerably by the time of its demolition: the flooring-over of the concourse area, which occurred fairly early in the station's history and was bad for train-watchers but likely a functional improvement, creating a great deal of additional milling room; and the installation of the "flying saucer" ticket office in the late 1950's. Alan Follett Hercules, CA |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by dinky on Sun Sep 5 00:43:57 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Doctor B on Thu Sep 2 00:11:02 2010. ...and the North River Tunnels still rise and fall with the tide.Conquering Gotham, by Jill Jonnes, is a great book about building Penn Station and its tunnels. The book goes into detail about that phenomenon and the incredibly difficult engineering puzzle it presented. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 5 01:25:09 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 2 13:25:36 2010. Again, there was no celebration at Hoboken Terminal despite the 1907 edifice being very much intact, and the clock tower having been rebuilt. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 5 01:30:26 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by murray1575 on Sat Sep 4 07:35:22 2010. Don't forget that when the original station was conceived and built no one could have predicted the extent of the rapid growth which occurred in the following years (in no small part due to Penn Station and Grand Central's existence)Rapid growth of what? There was a reason why Exchange Place Terminal remained open for fifty years after Penn Station opened. When the station opened no subway line even existed to serve it; that didn't happen until 1918 (IRT) and 1932 (IND) That's perhaps not the point. There were still the Sixth and Ninth Avenue lines, and the Hudson & Manhattan served three of five waterfront terminals. Nor could anyone have predicted the other factors such as the rapid expansion of auto and air travel after WWII which led to the decline in fortunes of the railroads No, people were predicting that the railroads would have competition from those other modes; nobody predicted that the government would step in and distort the market so much. I agree that somehow something could have been done to preserve at least part of the station as was done with Grand Central The truly rotten thing is that GCT wouldn't have been preserved if the fall of the original NYP edifice were so profound in the public's eyes. Of course, the profundity thereof wasn't enough to reverse NYP's demolition. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by The I MAN on Mon Sep 6 21:24:07 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 2 17:16:12 2010. I put the blame more on those who allowed the demolition to occur than I do The Pennsylvania Railroad. Its demise while tragic, jump started the entire Landmarks Preservation Movement in the city. This made sure that what would have been the second worst architectural decision never occurred, the razing of Grand Central. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by The I MAN on Mon Sep 6 21:28:16 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 5 01:30:26 2010. Exchange place terminal allowed those who worked downtown to have a quick ride to their Pennsy served town. Hoboken terminal now provides this function alone, as opposed to a time when four New Jersey Terminals provided this service. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Sep 6 22:15:07 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Alan Follett on Sat Sep 4 12:32:42 2010. So the "Flying Saucer" ticket office that was in place at Penn Station through the mid-1980's (before being moved to its current location when the station was massively renovated again in the late '80's) actually was built before the original station was torn down.Never knew that. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Sep 6 22:22:06 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by The I MAN on Mon Sep 6 21:24:07 2010. That's true, but again, you were dealing with a different mentality at the time the original Penn Station was torn down.It also needs to be remembered that by that time, it was clear Madison Square Garden was going to need a new home somewhere. The famed building on 49th-50th and 8th-9th Avenues was very quickly becoming obsolete, and if not at Penn Station when it was, a new location for MSG was going to be needed by the mid-1970's at the latest, never mind the changing patterns of where people were living by the '60s. There was no way MSG was going to be able to exist much past the '70s where it had been, so that would have become an issue as well. The fact the original Penn Station was not built with such flexibility in mind was what doomed it, at least in my opinion. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Sep 6 22:28:52 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 2 17:16:12 2010. Am I only one that likes NY Penn? Call me crazy but I acutally like the current NYP a bit better than GCT, the concouses are modern (I will admit the men's bathroom in the NJT/Amtrak part of the station sucks) and its awsome @ track level, three railroads, two sources of electic power (3rd Rail & Overhead wire), complex switches west of the station, etc. Its basically an foamer paradise down under MSG lol. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 6 22:47:17 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Sep 6 22:28:52 2010. Are there any other anti-Semites like you who like New York Penn Station more than Grand Central Terminal? |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 6 22:51:52 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Brighton Private on Thu Sep 2 13:08:20 2010. It's only "vital" due to that overused link to New Jersey that NJT continues to abuse far beyond its intended capacity.And it requires us to ask: What great work of equivalent usefulness (to say nothing of great beauty) are we building to leave to our posterity 100 years hence? Nothing that I can see. The one built a century ago was done by private enterprise, to boot. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by PATHman on Tue Sep 7 01:05:35 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Sep 6 22:28:52 2010. Penn Station is a tacky terminal hidden under a sports arena. It's so congested. Grand Central looks like a real railroad terminal. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 01:28:53 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by PATHman on Tue Sep 7 01:05:35 2010. They both look the same at track level, so what's your point?You act like you're unaware of how Penn Station used to look. The rotten thing is, GCT would have met the same fate if not for Penn Station's destruction.   |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 7 07:02:25 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 5 01:30:26 2010. No, people were predicting that the railroads would have competition from those other modes; nobody predicted that the government would step in and distort the market so much.yeah the government should have never built highways and airports so that Exchange Place and Erie Terminals could still be standing. The country would have been so much better off with 19th century railroad depots instead of airports and highways. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 7 07:03:59 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Sep 6 22:22:06 2010. Agreed. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Sep 7 07:42:20 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 01:28:53 2010. No question it was a classic station, but the problem was, as magnificent as it was, it had from what has been noted already altered quite a bit even before the main facade was torn down to make way for the current MSG and Two Penn Plaza. It also needs to be remembered that neighborhood would become quite seedy, especially at night for quite some time during the 1970's and '80s and probably would have been worse had the old Penn Station remained (especially with no MSG there, though of course, that has changed quite a bit in recent years).As noted in another post, MSG was going to need a new home anyway by the mid-'70s at the latest as the old MSG was quickly becoming obsolete by that point. That, and the mentality that was in place in the '60s is what doomed the original Penn Station. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 7 07:51:47 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Sep 6 22:15:07 2010. It was also known as the clamshell. They stuck it in the main waiting room in such a way that it blocked the main access to the concourse. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 12:01:40 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by SMAZ on Tue Sep 7 07:02:25 2010. Who said "instead of"? And why government intervention at all?And TGVs run into 19th-century depots, so your rhetoric is another epic fail. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 12:04:05 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Sep 7 07:42:20 2010. All wrong. Once the PRR sold the property, there was no need to demolish the edifice.GCT as undemolished was also "seedy", as an abode for the homeless. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Fytton on Tue Sep 7 12:10:10 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Sep 7 07:42:20 2010. 'It also needs to be remembered that neighborhood would become quite seedy,'Many fine railway terminals around the world are in seedy neighbourhoods. The railway causes the seediness to some extent. Because people from far and near alight from trains there, some with no particular place to go, it becomes a neighbourhood of transients. That's not a reasonc for demolishing architecturally beautiful stations, nor does a new station guarantee improvement of the neighbourhood. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 12:13:48 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Fytton on Tue Sep 7 12:10:10 2010. Yeah, that is poor reasoning. Smash the station to match the neighborhood? What a relief that GCT survived its "seedy" period. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 12:17:02 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by The I MAN on Mon Sep 6 21:28:16 2010. I've always tried to raise debate of whether or not Exchange Place would have become viable again if the PRR didn't put the wrecking ball to it in 1961 and it lasted into PC days when the Metroliner service was kicking off. A more direct ride to the rebuilt downtown of Manhattan would have been a good advertising point. |
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Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary? |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Sep 7 12:50:24 2010, in response to Re: Penn Station 100th Anniversary?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 7 12:01:40 2010. I thought the TGV terminii had all been rebuilt or were new structures? |
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