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Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010 They're spending €4 billion ($5.1 billion) to tear down the existing rail station, close the stub tracks and replace them with underground through tracks, a project called Stuttgart 21. Critics are calling it a big waste of dough, and even expect costs to rise as high as €8 billion ($10.2 billion). On top of all that, the city of Stuttgart now has to assume all of the costs, whereas the original estimated €2.6 billion was to have been shared among Stuttgart, the federal government and Deutsche Bahn; the people feel betrayed.Deutsche Welle
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 14 01:06:38 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. And Germans are tighter than Scots ... the SURPRISE here would be? |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:16:28 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Here's der Spiegel's take on the story. Concept pics in the link.
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Aug 14 08:22:57 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Notice how they can spend more on one station than USA can spend on Amtrak in 4 years ?? |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 15 09:14:01 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Aug 14 08:22:57 2010. That they can. This appears to be something like NY Penn's demolition when it comes to what they want to do to the old station though, to the people of Stuttgart; and the cost increases are very reminiscent of ARC.On top of that, some shenanigans were going on at the state level from politicians who seem to have a vested interest in building Stuttgart 21. The Local (Deutscher Depeschendienst)
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Aug 15 09:46:33 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 14 01:06:38 2010. I think it was the trousers. :) |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Fytton on Sun Aug 15 11:57:59 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Hmm. I wonder what the new Hauptbahnhof in Berlin cost? Less than this, I'd guess. The reconstruction of St Oancras in London cost less than 1 billion (pounds), may a little over 1 billion euros. This is nearly four times that... |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 15 12:44:27 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Wado MP73 on Sun Aug 15 09:46:33 2010. Heh. :) |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 15 16:06:49 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Fytton on Sun Aug 15 11:57:59 2010. At least there was some impetus behind building something at the former Lehrter Hbf; there wasn't any tearing down of a classic station involved. IIRC, the price tag of the new Berlin Hbf was in the €3 billion range or something like that; but it included other ancillary construction on the railroad not at the site. |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Joe on Sun Aug 15 20:46:27 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 15 16:06:49 2010. About 1997 we purchased tickets on an ICE from Munich to Stuttgart. A digital speedometer was at one end of the car. I was very disappointed that we got nowhere near high speed, especially as we wound our way through the hills from Ulm to Stuttgart. I just checked an ICE schedule: 56 minutes for about 90 km, or about 60 mph average. That'd be good time on most Amtrak routes, but it isn't high speed. I think the Stuttgart 21 project involves more than the stub-end terminal and includes a straighter route from Ulm. And I could be wrong. |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Aug 15 21:22:38 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 15 16:06:49 2010. there wasn't any tearing down of a classic station involvedIIRC, while the mainline station was torn down in the 1950s, the original Stadtbahn station was maintained and was a listed building until it was torn down for the new station. the price tag of the new Berlin Hbf was in the €3 billion range Actually, it's $4B Euro, and it's still "half-built" as the connection to the Nord-Sud Tunnels on S-Bahn were never built... |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by R PansePCC on Sun Aug 15 21:27:23 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Too bad. That is a beautiful station. |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 16 00:59:13 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by R PansePCC on Sun Aug 15 21:27:23 2010. Doesn't seem to me that all of the alternatives were considered. They've really stirred up the people against it. |
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Fytton on Mon Aug 16 06:38:33 2010, in response to Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 15 16:06:49 2010. 'the price tag of the new Berlin Hbf was in the €3 billion range or something like that; but it included other ancillary construction on the railroad not at the site.'Presumably you mean the north-south tunnel across central Berlin that brings trains into the low-level platforms at Berlin Hbf. But the, the way it reads is that the Stuttgart sum also includes such a tunnell, since the Hbf there is being converted from a terminus into a through station, so perhaps that 4 billion euro includes 'ancillary construction' too. The oppositon to the Stuttgart work seems to centre on two things: the expenditure of so much money during a time of economic difficulty; and the destruction of a historic station building. |
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Rail advocate group opposes reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Sep 1 11:20:38 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Not sure if I can characterize "Pro-Bahn" as the equivalent of NARP, but it's close enough.The Local (Deutscher Depeschendienst)
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Sep 23 00:57:09 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. This op-ed from der Spiegel calls the project a "white elephant".
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Police using *water cannons* against Stuttgar 21 protestors |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 1 01:26:44 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. So now everyone knows how modern Germany deals with protestors against unwanted government projects (they aren't exactly NIMBYs). This is a ridiculous turn of events, but not unexpected given what Germany's about nowadays.The Local (Deutsche Press Agentur)
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Re: Police using *water cannons* against Stuttgart 21 protestors |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 01:44:11 2010, in response to Police using *water cannons* against Stuttgar 21 protestors, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 1 01:26:44 2010. This Spiegel article is particularly anti-Merkel on the subject.
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Green Party calls for nationwide protests against "Stuttgart 21" (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 03:54:41 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. This doesn't necessarily help the cause of the legitimate protestors. A false flag operation?The Local
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 2 04:08:50 2010, in response to Green Party calls for nationwide protests against "Stuttgart 21" (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 03:54:41 2010. Sorry to bust in on your whole anti-EU thing, but how come you're not railing against these people being "communists and leftists" like you always are doing about anything that happens here? Why is it OK to support these people over there and yet be so abusive to people who aren't rioting over here? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sat Oct 2 07:03:27 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 2 04:08:50 2010. Better yet, how come this isn't on OTChat??? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sat Oct 2 07:03:56 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by LRG5784 on Sat Oct 2 07:03:27 2010. Wait, never mind. |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 12:06:48 2010, in response to Green Party calls for nationwide protests against "Stuttgart 21" (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 03:54:41 2010. Good for them, that BS is a waste of money that will destroy a uniquely historic train station. |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 2 12:49:16 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 12:06:48 2010. Yeah, fuck progress. Who needs it? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 2 12:56:24 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 2 12:49:16 2010. Yeah... Give him a bottle of Moxie Soda.
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 17:30:03 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 2 12:49:16 2010. Do you consider Madison Square Garden and the new Penn Station to be progress? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 2 17:44:40 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 17:30:03 2010. It was and is progress.Not that I would call it the "Right Kind of Progress" but progress nonetheless. Germany is not USA. They do not have endless socialist egalitarian bullshit. They decided to build a station and that is the end of it. You want to stand in the way, they have ways to deal with people like you. And if you want MORE of that HERE, just keep believing that Obama is going to save you and the country, because his kind of thinking leads directly to that kind of thinking. (Why the heck do you *think* he wands to shutdown or at least belittle Fox News and Talk Radio. Truth is where you find it, and the White House is NOT it.
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 18:25:12 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 2 17:44:40 2010. I'm getting mixed messages here, perhaps you should let one of the adults respond. |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Oct 2 20:18:10 2010, in response to Green Party calls for nationwide protests against "Stuttgart 21" (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 03:54:41 2010. It does seem curious that they want to take the new build over (-11m) the S-Bahn platforms (-19m) rather than under them (about -30m). There must be some nasty vertical alignment issues somewhere for them to want to cause so much disruption with shallow construction (one thing virtually no-one is mentioning is that the underground Staatsgalerie Stadtbahn station, which includes a flying junction, will have to be completely rebuilt).Then there are the design issues. Superficially, it doesn't exactly look very inspiring. It should probably win an award for bad green architecture. But more seriously, the eight long platforms don't seem to be a particularly good design for the inevitably high proportion of short regional trains with long dwell times, unless there is an intention to include non-platform tracks with crossovers to the platform tracks halfway along the platforms. |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 2 20:31:08 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by LRG5784 on Sat Oct 2 07:03:56 2010. Heh. That was my point ... :) |
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German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors "disproportionate" |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 20:59:59 2010, in response to Police using *water cannons* against Stuttgar 21 protestors, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 1 01:26:44 2010. Der Spiegel summarizes the opinions across a number of other media outlets.
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 2 21:31:15 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 18:25:12 2010. It started as sarcasm, (your sarcasm detector my need a new battery) and ended with a slam at Obama.That seems pretty straight forward to me.
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Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'' |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Oct 2 21:55:15 2010, in response to German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors "disproportionate", posted by Olog-hai on Sat Oct 2 20:59:59 2010. The otherwise respectable citizens, who react to water cannons by singing the national anthemI hope they sang the first verse. |
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Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'' |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 03:39:54 2010, in response to Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'', posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Oct 2 21:55:15 2010. Why, do you want them to be above you? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 03:41:20 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Oct 2 21:31:15 2010. Obama has nothing to do with this, so why did you bring him up? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 03:45:20 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Oct 2 12:06:48 2010. That's my POV too. There are other ways to do rail improvements around Stuttgart. |
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Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'' |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Oct 3 09:22:26 2010, in response to Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'', posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 03:39:54 2010. I don't: it's just the amusement value of pissing off all the self-righteous types who think that it was the nationalism and not the socialism that was to blame for the evils of national socialism. I'd actually rather they sang Der reichste Fürst (a song about Eberhard im Bart). |
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Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'' |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 12:29:47 2010, in response to Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'', posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Oct 3 09:22:26 2010. it's just the amusement value of pissing off all the self-righteous types who think that it was the nationalism and not the socialism that was to blame for the evils of national socialismIt was both and more. Think orb, scepter and crown. I'd actually rather they sang Der reichste Fürst Not because it sounds like La Marseillaise in one part? |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 12:34:00 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by LRG5784 on Sat Oct 2 07:03:56 2010. He asked the wrong question, anyway, never mind showing a particular lack of understanding of what I'm talking about when it goes on in politics over there. Nothing wrong with German people, i.e. so far as they don't allow the elite to lead them by the nose. And these people are most definitely not allowing that. Jersey Mike's comparison to NY Penn is accurate to a point, apart from the lack of protest here and the police not using water cannons to protect the demolition thereof. |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Oct 3 14:04:55 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Oct 2 04:08:50 2010. Is the Green Party in Germany like the American one where it's just about La Raza?oh wait, n/m Seig Hiel! |
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Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Oct 3 14:10:24 2010, in response to Re: Green Party calls for nationwide protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' (Germany), posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sun Oct 3 14:04:55 2010. I guess the Germans haven't yet been beaten down into malleable compliance like over here. We're GOOD little sheep ... German citizens, not so. They don't have a PATRIOT act ... yet. |
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Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'' |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Oct 3 14:11:41 2010, in response to Re: German media calls police action against Stuttgart 21 protestors ''disproportionate'', posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 3 12:29:47 2010. "I'd actually rather they sang Der reichste Fürst"Not because it sounds like La Marseillaise in one part? Yes. That should have been a hint to Swabians and other southern Germans which side they should be on in 1870. But to be fair, the French had decided that they were Partant pour la Syrie by then. |
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Rüdiger Grube (Deutsche Bahn CEO) shows totalitarian attitude towards Stuttgart 21 protestors |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 4 01:07:58 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. On one hand, he says that the project's the right thing from a "democratic standpoint", and then declares the parliament autocratic in the next sentence. This guy's got to go.The Local (Deutsche Presse Agentur)
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Re: Rüdiger Grube (Deutsche Bahn CEO) shows totalitarian attitude towards Stuttgart 21 protestors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Oct 4 01:18:31 2010, in response to Rüdiger Grube (Deutsche Bahn CEO) shows totalitarian attitude towards Stuttgart 21 protestors, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 4 01:07:58 2010. Hope you realize that your attempts to recruit people to go bomb Germany for you isn't going to work over here either. :) |
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Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against "Stuttgart 21" [Germany]) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 10 16:57:39 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Might be one of the things that up-ends Merkel's coalition, ironically, even more than unemployment, Afghanistan or other issues. And it looks like the Greens are indeed taking advantage.Link
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Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]) |
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Posted by Fytton on Mon Oct 11 05:43:09 2010, in response to Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against "Stuttgart 21" [Germany]), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Oct 10 16:57:39 2010. This is fascinating, both politically and as regards rail operating concepts. Many large cities around the world are served by termini rather than through stations, and the idea of making them into through stations by buiding tunnels under the city centres has to be a good one in priciple. It makes train services faster and more cost-effective to run.This was done in Brussels many years ago and works well there, and - more relevantly to the Stuttgart controversy - has also been done successfully in Berlin recently, with the opening of the new Hauptbahnhof. But neither of these involved demolishing an existing historic station building or sacrificing a park, and neither occurred at a time of severe cuts in public expenditure generally. Circumstances alter cases. It looks as if Stuttgart (a city I've never visited, so I'm just going on the media reports) may well be a case where application of the general priciple is inappropriate. |
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Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Oct 11 09:46:15 2010, in response to Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]), posted by Fytton on Mon Oct 11 05:43:09 2010. This was done in Brussels many years ago and works well there, and - more relevantly to the Stuttgart controversy - has also been done successfully in Berlin recently, with the opening of the new Hauptbahnhof. But neither of these involved demolishing an existing historic station building or sacrificing a park, and neither occurred at a time of severe cuts in public expenditure generally.Actually, they completely demolished both Brussels termini when they constructed the North-South Link. But this was 1949-52, and people were a lot less appreciative then of railway architecture of a certain age. The old Nord was a nicely-proportioned Second-Empire-style building. The old Midi was something else, a massive Neo-Classical monumental thing that looked like a very Francophone take on the old Euston. There are some pictures at the bottom of this page. Circumstances alter cases. It looks as if Stuttgart (a city I've never visited, so I'm just going on the media reports) may well be a case where application of the general priciple is inappropriate. Well, it is quite hard to think of plausible through routes via Stuttgart other than the France to Munich one. The line would not be quicker to Munich from anywhere north of Mannheim. It might make more sense to remove these reversals by stopping the few international trains that aren't terminating at Stuttgart-Hbf at Stuttgart-Bad Canstatt or Stuttgart-Nordbf instead (i.e. what happens in Tours and Orléans). And the north-south routes through Stuttgart are generally very slow indeed: Stuttgart-Zürich: 2h53, ~130 miles Stuttgart-Würzburg (i.e. the nearest point on the HSR to Hamburg): 2h14, ~90 miles Stuttgart-Nuremberg (for Berlin and Prague): 2h09/2h44 (alternate trains), ~130 miles Perhaps they're building the HSR through Stuttgart the wrong way around! |
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Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 11 11:23:02 2010, in response to Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]), posted by Fytton on Mon Oct 11 05:43:09 2010. Comparing Berlin Hauptbahnhof with what's going on in Stuttgart is apples/oranges. There was no extant ornate station in Berlin to demolish, and the costs were very controlled. |
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Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 11 11:24:12 2010, in response to Re: Time Magazine takes notice (Big protests against ''Stuttgart 21'' [Germany]), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Oct 11 09:46:15 2010. Perhaps they're building the HSR through Stuttgart the wrong way aroundI think that may be the case indeed. This is one oversized political football, never mind overpriced and in assault of architecture without any need whatsoever. |
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Mediator announces beginning of talks over "Stuttgart 21" |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 15 09:04:10 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010. Dunno what will come of it. This project is genuine "pork barrel".The Local (Deutsche Press-Agentur)
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