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| Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own (972055) | |
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Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010 The DN did nto put this on their website but it was in today's paper so I'll type in the article."Robotrains proving to have minds of their own" Exclusive - Pete Donohue "SOME ROBOTRAINS have been going rogue on the L line prompting NYC Transit to temporarily suspend the high-tech operation, the Daily News has learned. In one incident, a train that was stopped at a Brooklyn platform took off on its own - traveling three to five feet before a crew member on board hit the emergency brakes, NYC Transit confirmed yesterday,. Train service continued the old fashioned way - with motormen doing the driving, not computers - until software fixes were finished last weekend, the agency said. The so-called Robotrains are part of an expensive package of upgrades involving signals and onboard computers that only exists on the L line. But to critics like Kevin Harrington, a vice president of Transport Workers Union Local 100, glitches are warnings that this system is potentially dangerous. In automatic train operation mode, the Robotrains are controlled by computers telling them when to stop and how fast to travel. After discharging passengers at a station, a train should remain idling until a motorman, who's monitoring its operations at the cab's computer, authorizes departure with the push of a button. "Train operators have authority to take manual control of their train when necessary while still maintaining a safe operation," NYC Transit said in the statement. "It's important to note safety was not an issue, but reliability was". Some L line trains have been modified with the software fix but not the entire fleet, the agency said. Those that were fixed have returned to computer control." --------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------- My comments: "It's important to note safety was not an issue, but reliability was". A train starts on its own and that isn't a safety issue???!!!!! DANGER, DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!! |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Aug 27 15:25:00 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. Heh. Good old robots. No cheaper to run BART or WMATA with 'em, and now the new ones are becoming self-aware and rebelling against their masters. What next, the robots petitioning to join the TWU? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 27 16:02:52 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. Heh. "Microsoft Train ... move any handle to ... whoops!" :)
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Aug 27 16:12:14 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Aug 27 15:25:00 2010. Nah they'll vote for Obama =p |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by rtype3995 on Fri Aug 27 17:18:42 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. i was on a L train going home when the next top was broadway junction.......that train made its next stop atlantic ave........not only is that L robotrain a waste of money, im surprised that we arent hearing about more incidents in regards to this..........it is clearly a flawed systwm that needs to be rid of............ |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Aug 27 17:26:40 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 27 16:02:52 2010. lmao! |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Aug 27 17:28:04 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by rtype3995 on Fri Aug 27 17:18:42 2010. "Well maybe this will put an end to pissing away money to set up the 7 to be the next robotrain line?" Nah, very doubtful.... |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Aug 27 17:36:51 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. Was the train's motion caused by gravity and insufficient brake application, or activation of the train's propulsion system? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 20:44:25 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Aug 27 17:36:51 2010. They didn't indicate that in the article (as if the MTA would reveal such information), but I gathered that it was an activation of the propulsion system after the train had stopped at a station. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Fri Aug 27 20:48:02 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. I heard the call about all train being ran Manuely 3 weeks ago while sitting in ENY on my Putin. I was not shore why and thougth it was back in ATO a few days later, so I did not post it. I thought no big deal, now I see other wise. I glad I did not pick the L line this pick. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Aug 27 22:05:01 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. "My comments:"It's important to note safety was not an issue, but reliability was". A train starts on its own and that isn't a safety issue???!!!!! DANGER, DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!! " Someone other than me caught on to that and said the same thing!!!! And hey NETO, didn't I say time and time again how awful and idea and how potentially dangerous that CBTC crap is here???? And people ask why I left!! And knowing the powers that be and how they are, if someone did get hurt, the operator or crew member would STILL be the scapegoats to take the heat somehow, while "mismanagement" will wash their hands of any and all responsibility to save their collective asses!! |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Aug 28 04:37:06 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Aug 27 16:12:14 2010. GOOD. SO WILL I. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by rtype3995 on Sat Aug 28 06:55:39 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Aug 27 17:28:04 2010. One can only hope.....lol |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Aug 28 07:26:03 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 27 16:02:52 2010. Could a NTT even display the "blue screen of death", or, worse, "error 404--Train Not Found"? LOL! |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Aug 28 09:59:36 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Aug 28 07:26:03 2010. Damn that second part is hilarious :) I do wonder myself if it has a blue screen of death. But, I think a black screen with white bold uppercase letters saying "YOU ARE SCREWED!" is better :) |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Aug 28 10:01:59 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by arnine on Sat Aug 28 09:59:36 2010. Ooooooooohhh, Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr-nine!! Are you gonna check your email??? :-D LOL |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Aug 28 10:07:04 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Aug 28 10:01:59 2010. :) |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat Aug 28 10:20:14 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Aug 27 22:05:01 2010. Don't forget that a train being slammed into emergency from a low speed during acceleration is more highly likely to injure unprepared passengers than a train already moving at speed. People don't ASK me why I left. They KNOW. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Aug 28 13:33:56 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Aug 28 07:26:03 2010. I'm told that they have ... but error 404 is "paycheck not found." :) |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 15:22:20 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Fri Aug 27 22:05:01 2010. Notice that none of their many named spokespeople on the payroll made that statement, rather it was more like a press release.Sugar coating a big problem if you ask me. Thank God I am not in a seniority position that I have to work that line ever again. CBTC is one of those ideas where the big boss tells a subordinate: "You make this work otherwise it's YOUR ass, not mine". No matter what happens, they will never abandon the concept only because of all the money they've already sunk into this. Notice there was signal problems at Canarsie all day yesterday? CBTC related? I bet it was. I have spoken to many t/o's who tell me they have one hand on the cab door ready to bolt at 14/8 of it looks like that train ain't going to stop! I really think it may work outdoors but I don't trust it underground due to all the steel-dust and other assorted dirt in the air. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Aug 28 16:58:13 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by rtype3995 on Sat Aug 28 06:55:39 2010. Yeah if it was stopped then there won't be a need to move the R62As back to the 6 and R142As to the 7. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by rtype3995 on Sat Aug 28 17:20:38 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 15:22:20 2010. The L is a senior line? I'm surprised at that..... |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sat Aug 28 17:24:15 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Aug 28 16:58:13 2010. Wait, but didn't they already select Kawasaki for the R188's and to convert a set of R142s? If so, doubtful they will cancel the 7 as a Robotrain they will just waste more $$ trying to fix it on the L and onverting the 7 :( Not approving the idea as I hate it but that will be how they'd go from a historical perspective :( |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 20:25:31 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 15:22:20 2010. Did I say that? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 20:26:51 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 20:25:31 2010. Delete this response. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Aug 28 20:27:09 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by rtype3995 on Sat Aug 28 17:20:38 2010. Did I say that? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Aug 28 23:45:30 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by arnine on Sat Aug 28 17:24:15 2010. I only said it as wishful thinking. I don't think this problem on the L would change the plans for the 7. But as far as the R188s, the problem is the R62s are at least 10+ years from being 40. They [R62s] are going to be extras, what will be done with them? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 07:04:19 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Aug 28 23:45:30 2010. Ok, don't get me wrong though I wish it would end the plan to make the 7 a robotrain.Well, maybe the R62s that are extras can be use for future service increases or nice trains for work trains. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Aug 29 10:00:00 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by R36 #9346 on Fri Aug 27 17:36:51 2010. Could the MTA be really looking at eliminating not only Conductors, but Motormen? |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 11:02:32 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Aug 29 10:00:00 2010. They would love ZPTO but the unions and pax rightfully so will not let that happen and thankfully the union has made some headway in preventing more OPTO |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 29 11:19:52 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Aug 29 10:00:00 2010. What are you talking about?Suppose, like the current N train thread where the t/o was able to stop the train before she was stuck, suppose someone falls to the track under this senario/ Tough luck, not t/o to save your life. Suppose a passenger is stuck on the roadbed and the train does not go into emergency? It is possible if the body does not strike a tripping device. What about an undesired emergency brake application? Who walks around the train? Explain. As dumb as MTA sometimes thinks, there is no way they will have trains running around with no attendant at all. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 29 11:28:42 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 11:02:32 2010. Not even BART or WMATA are ZPTO. Makes no sense. And doesn't save any money, apparently. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 11:35:49 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 29 11:28:42 2010. Yes, I would not support ZPTO anywhere. TBH I do not even like ZPTO on the airport stuff like AirTrain. But that I can live with given the limited operations of those systems. But, big systems like NYCT and others no way it isn't safe. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by SilverFox on Sun Aug 29 11:58:00 2010, in response to Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Allan on Fri Aug 27 14:52:07 2010. This is a clear and present case of corruption somewhere within the system. How come our automated train control system can't hold up to far more reliable yet primitive systems put into service decades ago on other transit systems worldwide? Somebody got paid off to produce a faulty system to deliver to New York (as always) in order to justify the existence of employees whose jobs should have been honestly automated away those same decades ago had competent heads prevailed. Again to the hourlies: I'm not saying you're not doing your jobs. I'm saying that your jobs are technically obsolete and you should not have been hired in the first place. That's a big difference in point of view. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by R30A on Sun Aug 29 12:00:41 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Aug 28 23:45:30 2010. They will be run in service. The IRT needs more cars. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Aug 29 12:02:10 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Aug 27 15:25:00 2010. Next thing you know they'll want robot marriage :Pyour pal, Fred |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 29 12:09:20 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by SilverFox on Sun Aug 29 11:58:00 2010. Are you advocating crew-less trains?Who saves the womans life who felt dizzy as per the on going N line thread? Were the other systems you cite (BART/WMATA, and we know how good the latter is), built with the automated train control system vs. being retrofitted into an existing system? Even those systems has somebody watching in the front. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:10:32 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by SilverFox on Sun Aug 29 11:58:00 2010. I'm saying that your jobs are technically obsolete and you should not have been hired in the first place.Of coruse they was... There is this one word called "accountability" a word T/O's have to live with im speakign from a T/O's perspective. BTW this trumps your point. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:11:16 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:10:32 2010. *Speaking |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 29 12:20:36 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:10:32 2010. It's just amazing that we have posters here who think they know all there is to know about transporting millions of passengers with a 99.9999999% degree of safety daily being such a simple thing.Do we go around telling them how simple their jobs are? I admit I don't know the indiosyncracies (sp?) of their jobs and I wouldn't even think of doing what they do to us. Yeah, it's our misfortune there is a SubChat that we have to defend ourselves and our jobs on this board too. Too bad there isn't a paper pusher chat because that is what these guys do for a living. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 12:25:52 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 29 12:20:36 2010. Exactly. And now it won't be long before another certain poster will chime in with his ranting of how useless workers are :( |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:35:27 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 12:25:52 2010. You mean the so called "teacher"?Im glad School starts soon.. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:37:16 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Aug 29 12:20:36 2010. Its his opinion Bill makes for good debate though... |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Aug 29 12:38:30 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sat Aug 28 10:20:14 2010. Those who know me know the reasons why I left, and this was one of the chief reasons!! |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 12:46:33 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:35:27 2010. Me too.But I'm afraid for his students :( |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:48:46 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 12:46:33 2010. Yeah who knows how warped thier young minds will be... |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Aug 29 12:50:26 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:48:46 2010. Exactly. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Aug 29 16:21:16 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Railman718 on Sun Aug 29 12:10:32 2010. IMHO, the NYCT system is too complex and dynamic forautomated train operation. The TA has been playing with this concept since the early Sixties. Even PATH looked at computerizing their system around the time they ordered their first PA-series cars. They've not been able to make it work. The first attempt at computerized NYCT train operation, on the 42 Street Shuttle, ended in flames. The concept was great on paper, but adapting the system to the realities of the New York City subway is something else entirely.In cities where computers operate the trains, it's either on relatively new or simple systems, or a combination of both. (WMATA comes to mind, and even there, on a moderately-sized system, there have been some spectacular system failures.) I get the overwhelming impression that NYCT, with its century-old structures, high TPH numbers, and highly variable operating environment, simply isn't suited for today's industrial software, which is programmed to "expect" a rigid set of parameters. I think the NYCT bigs will eventually discover, through much trial (and hopefully not too much error), that only human beings can safely and successfully operate a sysyem as complicated as New Yok's, at least given our present state of technology. |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Aug 30 14:29:20 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Aug 27 16:02:52 2010. THAT is funny!!--Mark |
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Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 30 15:33:19 2010, in response to Re: Oh L - Robotrains have a mind of their own, posted by Fred G on Sun Aug 29 12:02:10 2010. We haven't even gotten into male/female USB ports yet. But will there be outrage if it goes as far as robot/human relationships? |
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