Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''

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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Fri Oct 15 10:20:01 2010, in response to Mediator announces beginning of talks over "Stuttgart 21", posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 15 09:04:10 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Why is this your thing?
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Oct 15 14:32:22 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by Jersey Mike on Fri Oct 15 10:20:01 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Oh, just because of the "Germany gets everything right when it comes to rail" crowd.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Fri Oct 15 14:48:41 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 15 14:32:22 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Well its a perfectly cromulent project aside from the destruction of a historic station.
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany)
Posted by The I MAN* on Fri Oct 15 17:20:11 2010, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not a bad looking station, although I could do without the Benz sign at the top.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Fri Oct 15 22:52:59 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 15 14:32:22 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Oh, just because of the "Germany gets everything right when it comes to rail" crowd. Well, DB moves way more people than Amtrak does, so I'd probably look to DB for ideas on how to build a comprehensive passenger railway network at the regional and national level.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Oct 15 23:05:38 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Oct 15 22:52:59 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If that's your sole criterion, then you're missing the big picture, aren't you? This is a politically-motivated bit of pork. Compared to much of what DB has done domestically in Germany, it's an aberration.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Fri Oct 15 23:16:49 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by Olog-hai on Fri Oct 15 23:05:38 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d This is a politically-motivated bit of pork I suspect the design of the line is motivated by the fact that DB just doesn't want to deal with a stub end terminal in a somewhat smallish city, nor does it want to build a high speed line that doesn't connect to the airport which is located south of the city. The rest of the line otherwise is just a way to speed up service from Paris and Strasbourg into Munich. While improvements on classic lines and the opening of the Schnellfahrstrecke Nürnberg–Ingolstadt–München has made runs from the north more effective via that routing more effective, the approach via Ulm and Augsburg will still need some work to be usable, especially for Paris-Munich traffic.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Oct 16 01:01:25 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Oct 15 23:16:49 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d It's politically motivated, and the costs are getting out of control—costs that the city is on the hook for. There are plenty of alternatives to it.
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Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21''
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Oct 16 08:33:48 2010, in response to Re: Mediator announces beginning of talks over ''Stuttgart 21'', posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Oct 15 23:16:49 2010. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I suspect the design of the line is motivated by the fact that DB just doesn't want to deal with a stub end terminal in a somewhat smallish city, nor does it want to build a high speed line that doesn't connect to the airport which is located south of the city. The rest of the line otherwise is just a way to speed up service from Paris and Strasbourg into Munich. Stuttgart is the sixth-largest city in Germany and the center of the fourth-largest metropolitan region! It is the fourteenth-largest LUZ in Europe! It's also the capital and largest city of the Land of Baden-Württemberg. This isn't some smallish city. It's roughly three times the size of Strasbourg. And Stuttgart 21 doesn't connect to Stuttgart Airport very well at all. That station design is a mess of sharp curves, single-lead junctions, and mixed traffic.
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Deutsche Bahn halts construction of "Stuttgart 21"
Posted by Olog-hai* on Tue Mar 29 22:31:00 2011, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They say it's at least until the new government of Baden-Württemburg forms . . . but that government is stocked with Green Party members now, who oppose the project. (They're in a coalition with the SPD, who supports the project. I'd say deadlock results in death for this mess of a project.) The Local (Deutsche Press-Agentur) Deutsche Bahn halts Stuttgart 21 construction Published: 29 Mar 11 12:22 CET Construction work for the controversial Stuttgart 21 rail project will cease until Baden-Württemberg’s new state government has been formed, Germany's national railway operator Deutsche Bahn said Tuesday. “Until the formation of a new administration, Deutsche Bahn will create no new precedents — neither in construction, nor the award of new contracts,” company board member Volker Kefer said in Berlin. In May the company will “officially seek discussion with those who will then be responsible,” he added. The announcement followed the unprecedented political upset by the environmentalist Greens and the center-left Social Democrats (SPD) in Sunday’s state election in Baden-Württemberg, where the two parties are set to form a coalition. The new alliance has thrown the future of Stuttgart 21 into question, though. For years the Greens have opposed the multi-billion-euro rail project, and last year became part of a massive protest movement that aims to halt the revamp of the city's main train station. But the SPD has backed the project, which requires 16 new tunnels, 18 new bridges, 60 kilometers of new train track and three new stations, including a new underground through-station in Stuttgart. SPD state leader Nils Schmid said Monday that he would support the project in the event of a referendum, saying that pulling out would burden Baden-Württemberg with major compensation damages. But ultimately the decision remained with Deutsche Bahn and the federal government, he said. As thousands of demonstrators gathered outside the Stuttgart building site to renew their protest of the rail project on Monday night, both parties called for a suspension to construction until they could come to an agreement on the issue. The Green party's likely candidate to become the southwestern state's new premier, Winfried Kretschmann, said he foresaw problems with his coalition partners over the issue. “We have a big problem, that’s clear. It’s Stuttgart 21,” he said. “It will be exciting.” But Kretschmann also promised a new kind of governance in contrast to the defeated conservative Christian Democrats’ style, which he called “confrontational” on the subject of Stuttgart 21. “We will try to govern this state with consideration and measure,” he said, adding that he planned to talk “calmly” with Schmid. “There is good chemistry between us. We think along the same lines,” he said. Coalition talks are expected to last through late April, with the state parliament set to elect the new premier on May 12.
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"Stuttgart 21" project back on (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Jun 10 19:45:43 2011, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Looks like the "Greens" aren't so green after all. Not only that, they're defying the will of the people once again. Stopping the project saves the state more money than "delaying" Deutsche Bahn (as though the pork project was inevitable). The Local Stuttgart 21 rail project construction to restart Published: 10 Jun 11 17:16 CET Construction work on the controversial Stuttgart 21 rail project is to restart next week after a two-month pause to assess the future of the project following a state election in Baden-Württemberg. The southwestern German state's new government, which is a centre-left coalition of Greens and Social Democrats, decided not ask for a longer building freeze at a meeting of Stuttgart 21 stakeholders on Friday. The main reason is money: If the state government had demanded a further pause, it would have had to contribute to a fund to reimburse Deutsche Bahn for expenses the delay is causing. Those would soar into the tens of millions of euros by the time a so-called “stress test” to probe the viability of the project is finished in July. The government was hoping Deutsche Bahn would decide by itself to delay the project further, but the company confirmed Friday that construction would resume as soon as possible. “We want to move up construction activities to next week,” said Deutsche Bahn infrastructure manager Volker Kefer. Stuttgart 21 consists of a massive construction effort, involving rebuilding the city’s main train station underground and turning it around 90 degrees, as well as laying 57 kilometres of new tracks. The aim is to make the city a major European rail hub. But opponents mounted massive protests against the project last year, calling it too expensive and unnecessary. In October, more than 100 demonstrators were injured in a violent clash with police. The demonstration was followed by lengthy talks between state officials, national rail provider Deutsche Bahn and Stuttgart 21 opponents. But officials ultimately decided to go ahead with the project after making a few minor changes to plans. Some believed the state’s new left-leaning government would more strongly challenge the project because the Greens opposed it before the the election, but they have so far failed to do so. State officials have promised citizens will have the opportunity to vote on the future of the project, probably in the autumn. But backing out could cost the state government hundreds of millions of euros in compensation fees to Deutsche Bahn. DAPD/DPA/The Local/mdm
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by RockParkMan* on Fri Jun 10 20:07:36 2011, in response to "Stuttgart 21" project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 19:45:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Why do you oppose ALL rail modernization projects, even in countries you'd like to nuke?
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Fri Jun 10 20:14:24 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jun 10 20:07:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Because he wants Poland to march into Germany, take those reichsmarks and rebuild the Jersey Central to his house. Sheesh ... couldn't be more obvious. :)
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by RockParkMan* on Fri Jun 10 20:18:49 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jun 10 20:14:24 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The JC. What a joke of a railroad.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Fri Jun 10 20:19:25 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jun 10 20:18:49 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I know ... I remember riding the remains to Fort Monmouth often. But hey ...
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Jun 10 20:53:43 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jun 10 20:07:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Who said I oppose any modernization projects? They're fine so long as they aren't ripping off the people. (ARC's Alternative G would have been brilliant, especially if they found a way to run wires through GCT; send the Acela through there instead of the High Line alternately, eh?) The people don't want this project; it rips the old station to shreds and its utility is quite poor, never mind the costs blowing up like a balloon.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Fri Jun 10 21:28:07 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 20:53:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d PS. Scratch ~~High Line~~ and read Hell Gate line.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by WillD* on Sat Jun 11 00:11:29 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 20:53:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d ARC's Alternative G would have been brilliant, especially if they found a way to run wires through GCT; send the Acela through there instead of the High Line alternately, eh?) Except that it would have run well into the tens of billions of dollars once reality set in and the costs of the geotechnical engineers to ensure your shallow tunneling under Midtown's skyscrapers was done with the proper shoring. That, or else you'd need a new deep cavern under GCT and a good five miles of tunnel off into the Bronx to do it without disturbing the surface structures.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Sat Jun 11 06:21:49 2011, in response to "Stuttgart 21" project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 19:45:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Why would they need to compensate the railroad? Canceling the project will save it a lot of money.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Sat Jun 11 07:16:41 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jun 11 06:21:49 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Why would they need to compensate the railroad? I suspect it's for whatever ancillary expenses have been paid already in regards to engineering and other pre-construction costs. Besides, if anything, not building the project hurts a portion of their business model given that the plan is to basically speed up railway service between the Rhine-Neckar region, Stuttgart, and Munich, and it's necessary to make the TGV services from Paris to Munich remotely viable. I suspect DB isn't ultimate thrilled with the current operations into the Hbf and I don't think it's willing to have trains bypass the station as it does at Frankfurt...
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sat Jun 11 07:40:26 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by Jersey Mike on Sat Jun 11 06:21:49 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d similar to the payments which New Jersey will have to make to the US Government for cancelling ARC.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by RockParkMan* on Sat Jun 11 07:41:50 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 20:53:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d What they need to do is convert what's left of the CNJ to a clone of the River LINE.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project hidden costs revealed (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Jul 3 20:48:33 2011, in response to "Stuttgart 21" project back on (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jun 10 19:45:43 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Deutsche Bahn were up to some shenanigans. The Local Internal documents suggest Bahn hid true costs of Stuttgart 21 Published: 3 Jul 11 09:39 CET Deutsche Bahn did not reveal the true costs of its controversial Stuttgart 21 train station construction project, according to Der Spiegel magazine, which has seen internal company documents. The documents from two Deutsche Bahn subsidiaries, which date from 2002 to 2010, indicate that two years ago the company was already estimating that the project would cost far more than €4.5 billion. That is despite the fact that a condition attached to the project was that it did not exceed that figure. The massive Stuttgart 21 construction project involves moving the city’s main train station underground and laying an additional 57 kilometers of new tracks. The aim is to make the city a major European rail hub. However, the project is deeply unpopular with many local residents who object to the cost, argue that it is unnecessary and have been demonstrating en masse for months. Their opposition was a major factor leading to the election of a Green-led coalition in the state of Baden-Württemberg early this summer. According to Der Spiegel, Deutsche Bahn released official cost estimates that were significantly lower than those the company had calculated internally. At the end of 2002, the difference was around €700 million, but by March 2005 it was already €1.3 billion. At the time, Deutsche Bahn’s official estimate of costs for the project were at €2.8 billion. However, DB Projektbau, the subsidiary which carries out large railway projects for the national rail carrier, was actually assessing the costs at €4.1 billion. Yet it was only four years later that Deutsche Bahn boss Rüdiger Grube announced this sum as the anticipated cost of the project. By this time internal company estimates had already risen to over €5 billion. A spokesperson for Deutsche Bahn, when contacted by the magazine, did not want to comment on the details. However, he said that “differing investment sums” were not unusual and that they arose from “different, advanced stages of planning.”
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Re: Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany)
Posted by R36 #9346* on Sun Jul 3 22:59:24 2011, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d It's like the German Penn Station.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany)
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport* on Tue Jul 5 04:48:59 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project back on (Germany), posted by RockParkMan on Fri Jun 10 20:07:36 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If you read the thread, this is a very poorly-designed project.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' opponents' offices raided by Polizei (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Jul 7 13:24:02 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project hidden costs revealed (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 3 20:48:33 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Polizei were up to worse shenanigans last year. And where's Dand to criticize their actions? The Local Police raid Stuttgart 21 rail project opponents Published: 7 Jul 11 10:45 CET Police raided the offices of Stuttgart 21 opponents on Thursday morning over violent protests against the controversial rail project, authorities have announced. The raids were in connection with a demonstration held on June 20 against the multi-billion-euro project. Protesters stormed a building site and occupied the site for five hours, allegedly damaging fences and construction equipment. The office of the group Parkschützer, as well as the home of spokesman Matthias von Herrmann, were searched for video footage and information about potential witnesses to an alleged attack on a policeman that took place during the demonstration, officials said. According to police and Germany's national rail operator Deutsche Bahn, the demonstration caused €1.5 million in damage. An undercover police officer allegedly suffered injuries to the head and neck caused by punching and kicking. The state prosecutor is investigating the incident and may lay charges of causing bodily harm and attempted robbery. Police were searching for video footage that may show the alleged assault, as well as evidence of who might have witnessed the incident, officials said. The Parkschützer group showed video material at a recent press conference but have not handed it over to police, officials said. Von Hermann and other possible witnesses also ignored a police summons, forcing police to carry out the raids, they said. Von Herrmann said it was an “absolute affront” for the police to claim that Parkschützer had refused to hand over material. The video that the group showed two weeks ago at its press conference was available for everyone to see on the website Youtube, he said. “This is a specific maneuver to portray the Parkschützer as criminals,” he said. Stuttgart 21 consists of a massive construction effort, involving rebuilding the city’s main train station underground and turning it around 90 degrees, as well as laying 57 kilometers of new tracks. The aim is to make the city a major European rail hub. The official price tag is capped at €4.5 billion ($6.5 billion), but some media reports suggest the true cost may be higher. Opponents have mounted massive protests against the project over the past year, calling it too expensive and unnecessary.
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Re: Renewed protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany)
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Jul 10 03:12:46 2011, in response to Big protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 14 01:02:18 2010.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Deutsche Welle Transportation \| 09.07.2011 Thousands turn up for renewed protest over controversial German rail project Several thousand protesters have turned out in Stuttgart to express their opposition to disputed and costly plans to completely overhaul the city's main railway station. Protesters opposed to the controversial Stuttgart 21 rail project turned out at Stuttgart's main train station in full force Saturday, with organizers estimating that around 15,000 protesters showed up to demand a "construction stop forever." Police put the figure at about 7,000, and added that there were no incidents of violence as there had been in the past. Opponents of the multibillion-euro plan to move Stuttgart's central train station underground and create a high-speed regional rail link said the risk of cost overruns could not be calculated and that delays in viability tests showed the renovation project was just too massive to accurately assess. Costing an estimated €4.1 billion ($5.8 billion), the Stuttgart 21 development plan calls for moving the city's main railway station underground and rotating the direction of the tracks by 90 degrees to create a trans-European high-speed rail link. The spokeswoman for opponents of the project, Brigitte Dahlbender, said there was no pressure to hurry things up, unless Deutsche Bahn (DB), the German rail operator in charge of the project, decided to do so. Stress test delayed DB has been pushing hard for a debate on the plans in order to award initial contracts totaling €750 million for tunneling work. Results of a simulation assessing whether the new station would be able to handle a planned 30 percent increase in rail traffic by 2020 are due out on July 14. But the Swiss engineering firm tasked with auditing the simulation tests has said it will not be submitting its report until July 21, at the earliest. If the contracts are not awarded by the end of this month, they will be tendered again on a Europe-wide basis, delaying building work by a further 18 months. The Stuttgart 21 project was the key factor that led to Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats losing control of the state of Baden-Württemberg for the first time in 50 years in regional elections in March. Author: Gregg Benzow (dpa, AFP, Reuters) Editor: Martin Kuebler
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Re: Stuttgart 21 arbitration ends; opponents call shens on "stress tests"
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Jul 30 00:17:40 2011, in response to Re: Renewed protests against reconstruction of Stuttgart station (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 10 03:12:46 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Local Stuttgart 21 arbitration ends in acrimony Published: 29 Jul 11 17:07 CET The saga of attempted conciliation between opponents and supporters of the Stuttgart 21 project has reached an end with no compromise and with opponents insisting that “stress tests” on the massive rail plans were rigged. Advocates and opponents exchanged insults and accusations as the details of a recent set of projected capacity tests were released. The tests put the €4 billion rail project, which aims to turn the Baden-Württemberg capital into a major European transport hub, through a range of hypothetical situations. The results support the claim of railway operator Deutsche Bahn that the project could result in at least 30 percent increased capacity. But the coalition of groups opposing the project condemned the experts analysis as worthless because Deutsche Bahn, which is in charge of the project, used skewed assumptions to come up with the data. “That’s no stress test; that’s a fair-weather operation with a few hitches,” coalition spokeswoman Brigitte Dahlbender said. The opponents argue the parameters of the tests were “systematically limited” and called for fresh tests to probe whether the project could actually function properly in adverse circumstances. It was already known that the controversial, multi-billion euro project had passed the tests. Experts had previously confirmed the construction was ready to go ahead. Deutsche Bahn’s technical chairman Volker Kefer ruled out a new stress test and hit back at accusations that opponents weren’t sufficiently involved. The stress tests were part of a conciliation process that began late last year and was meant to bring the two sides together towards a compromise. Kefer pointed out that both sides had agreed to the appointment of the Swiss engineering firm SMA as the independent expert who conducted the tests. “We wanted a neutral expert,” he said. However the opponents had at the beginning of the year called for a second agreed expert to be added. On Friday, Tübingen Mayor Boris Palmer, also of the Greens, even accused SMA of bias, pointing out that it is bidding for a major tender recently put out by Deutsche Bahn. “That is a conflict of interest,” he said. Arbitrator Heiner Geißler, a former general secretary of the conservative Christian Democratic Union who was appointed to mediate between the two sides in October last year, rejected this criticism. “I will not allow someone to put the experts under suspicion,” he said. That said, Geißler backed the opponents claim they had not been fully included and admonished Deutsche Bahn for being one-sided. “On this question, I’m fully behind the critics,” he said. Previously, he had declared a further stress test was out of the question, telling broadcaster ZDF that the tests had been carried out perfectly. “Even the state government says that,” he said. SMA said the Stuttgart 21 test had happened “with optimal economic operational quality.” Baden-Württemberg premier Winfried Kretschmann of the Greens, who oppose the project, has previously raised the possibility of a further assessment. Transport Minister Winfried Hermann, also of the Greens, backed the idea. It wasn’t necessary to have a complete new stress test, but another simulation run should be conducted. “It’s a complementary stress test,” Hermann said.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes "Total War"
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed Aug 3 19:53:23 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' project hidden costs revealed (Germany), posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 3 20:48:33 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yeah right, you didn't know that Goebbels said it. If this isn't the final nail in the coffin for the misguided project, I don't know what would be . . . Der Spiegel 08/03/2011 'Do You Want Total War?' German Politician in Trouble for Using Goebbels Phrase Borrowing historically loaded phrases from the Nazi era is a big no-no in Germany. The latest perpetrator is veteran politician Heiner Geissler, who posed the rhetorical question, "Do you want total war?". The term was used by Joseph Goebbels in a famous 1943 speech. A veteran German politician has got himself into hot water by repeating a phrase attributed to Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels — "Do you want total war?" Heiner Geissler, 81, the mediator in a bitter dispute over the reconstruction of the main railway station for the city of Stuttgart, uttered the words last Friday during an arbitration meeting between supporters and opponents of the project. He said he was trying to emphasize the need for a settlement. But media commentators have heaped criticism on him for using a phrase that sums up the fanaticism of Nazi Germany. The controversy shows how sensitive references to the war remain in German politics. "Even if Geissler is an old man, even if he enjoys being in the limelight — borrowing phrases from Goebbels isn't acceptable," Frank Wahlig, a correspondent for influential public broadcaster ARD, said in a commentary. "He is of no use any more as a mediator for anything — he should be enjoying his retirement and long walks. Far away from spotlights and any microphone." Geissler, a former cabinet minister under Helmut Kohl and general secretary of the conservative Christian Democrat Union party for 12 years until 1989, is notoriously outspoken and has acquired the reputation of a maverick within the conservative party, joining anti-globalization group Attac and at times espousing decidedly left-wing views. He has acted as arbitrator in various industrial pay disputes in recent years. He didn't help matters when he gave a radio interview on Tuesday in which he seemed to deny knowing that Goebbels had made the remark. Goebbels put the question on Feb. 18, 1943 to an audience of Nazi faithful in Berlin's Sportpalast hall after the German army's defeat at Stalingrad, widely seen as the turning point of the war. It was an attempt to exhort the nation to even greater sacrifices. The answer from the audience was a frenetic "Ja!" Shrugging Off the Criticism On Wednesday, Geissler shrugged off the criticism by calling it absurd. "If I'm close to Goebbels, then Playboy is the official publication of the Vatican," Geissler told the Passauer Neue Presse newspaper in an interview published on Wednesday. "Every time one even just mentions something from the Nazi era, some people get nervous and go crazy." Geissler said he had carefully chosen the sentence to stress the need for a peaceful resolution to the conflict over the Stuttgart 21 project, which has sparked violent demonstrations and even led to one protestor being seriously injured by a water jet from a police water canon. He added that Goebbels didn't invent the term "total war" and that Winston Churchill had used it before him. There is a long list of German politicians and celebrities who have gotten in trouble by using terms coined in the Nazi era. The faux-pas invariably spark outrage even if the phrase was used inadvertently, as was the case with German sports commentator Katrin Müller-Hohenstein during the football World Cup in 2010. She said a goal scored by German striker Miroslav Klose must have been like an "inner Reichs party rally" for him — an archaic phrase from the 1930s that was used to convey rapturous joy of the sort experienced by the audience at the famous Nuremberg rallies. The remark drew widespread criticism and public broadcaster ZDF apologized for it.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by RockParkMan* on Wed Aug 3 20:38:46 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes "Total War", posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 3 19:53:23 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You notice that such speech carries a stiff consequence in Today's Germany.
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Posted by dand124* on Wed Aug 3 23:31:46 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes "Total War", posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 3 19:53:23 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d 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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 4 02:19:22 2011, in response to EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU EU, posted by dand124 on Wed Aug 3 23:31:46 2011. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d What are you, a stalker now? Grow up. This thread is not about the European Union besides.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Thu Aug 4 02:54:06 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 4 02:19:22 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Stuttgart moved to Pennsylvania?!
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP* on Thu Aug 4 07:53:16 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Aug 4 02:54:06 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Well, Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch.:)
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Aug 4 08:02:50 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Aug 4 07:53:16 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Actually, it's Deitsch.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Thu Aug 4 15:33:40 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Aug 4 07:53:16 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And you wonder why the boy is obsessed with "The English" ... :)
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport* on Thu Aug 4 17:29:48 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes "Total War", posted by Olog-hai on Wed Aug 3 19:53:23 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If this isn't the final nail in the coffin for the misguided project, I don't know what would be . . . Are the arguments actually going anywhere?
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Aug 4 18:27:54 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Aug 4 17:29:48 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Are the arguments actually going anywhere? The whole point of the protests is that the government doesn't want to listen to arguments and instead is trying to steamroll over the will of the people. They'd rather send the Polizei to beat up old men and kids. There are no counter-protests; nobody wants this boondoggle except the politicians.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by RockParkMan* on Thu Aug 4 18:45:46 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by Olog-hai on Thu Aug 4 18:27:54 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Looks like the last time they came to take you away.
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Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War''
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Aug 4 20:02:10 2011, in response to Re: ''Stuttgart 21'' mediator invokes ''Total War'', posted by RockParkMan on Thu Aug 4 18:45:46 2011.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Stop talking to yourself. More than that, stop hating yourself.
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