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Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010 This one blowz my mind, man. Copped it from here:From: "Paul S. Luchter" luckyshow_@_mindspring.com Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 22:50:47 -0500 Subject: LIRR Depot @ South ferry . . . "LIRRXDepotX@XS.Ferry.jpg" - image/jpeg, 433141 bytes, 953x1579 (422kb) The Giant Bridge woulda been interesting. 
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 11:30:55 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. LOL @ "Giant Bridge"! No shit, Sherlock!your pal, Fred |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:35:32 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 11:30:55 2010. Fifteen tracks high above the North River!!! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 12:28:24 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 11:30:55 2010. Traffic on Giant Bridge would be a bitch. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 12:31:59 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. It's sad to see this. 100 years ago we were dynamic, things like this were possible. Now we laugh at such proposals. Look at what happened to Rome when they stopped building.I actually like the idea. Add lots of expensive new real estate, bring the LIRR and NJT into lower Manhattan, even bring Manhattan close enough to SI to run a subway tunnel directly from it. Of course, Giant Bridge would have to be renamed Deep Tunnel. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 12:33:50 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. Wow . . . goes right from the CNJ's terminal area on the NJ side as well. "Grand Union Station", eh?The cost of this big project in 2010 dollars appears to be less than what they want to spend for the ARC project. (Including land reclamation.) |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 12:43:58 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 12:31:59 2010. The PANYNJ's mandate still stipulates building a rail connector for freight (and possibly passenger) between NJ and LI.As for what happened to the USA, that's fodder for OTChat. The bizarre ideas of Carolus Marcus did a lot of damage . . . |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 3 13:01:44 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. Amusing.Not economically feasible, then or now, considering underdeveloped areas in NYC, then especially, and now still. A freight tunnel would be nice, but don't hold your breath waiting for PANYNJ to make that to happen. If one were going to build a southern extension Manhattan in great enough acreage, probably one of the better uses would be as a large (mostly international) airport and underground HSR terminal that links our cities. Then close EWR, LGA, and JFK airports and redevelop them as far more productive uses. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ebtmikado on Sun Jan 3 13:02:25 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. What was this guy smoking? And why doesn't he share? |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 13:20:04 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. That budget is woefully low for what the idea encompasses.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Jan 3 13:26:33 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. 1893!!PRR still ended in Jersey City (Pennsylvania Station and the Hudson River tunnels are 15 years away). The IRT won't open for 11 years. The Third Avenue Railway is cable powered. Brooklyn is still an Independent City. The money talked about in the article would buy a half mile of the Second Avenue Subway today. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:31:21 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 12:28:24 2010. It would've been a railroad bridge with, gulp, 15 tracks. And the Manhattan to Brooklyn bridge would have 10 tracks. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:33:23 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 12:31:59 2010. I would love to see an illustration of that Giant Bridge with all those railroad tracks. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:35:25 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 12:33:50 2010. The close proximity of Brooklyn and Jersey City seems a "natural" for some sort of direct connection but it just never happened. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:11:17 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 3 13:01:44 2010. Not economically feasible, then or now"Then" was 1893. There wasn't even a subway then. Stranger projects have been economically feasible; look at the PRR with electrification all the way to DC. If one were going to build a southern extension Manhattan in great enough acreage, probably one of the better uses would be as a large (mostly international) airport and underground HSR terminal that links our cities No, that would be insanity. Skyscrapers within takeoff range? A terrorist's dream come true. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:18:45 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by ebtmikado on Sun Jan 3 13:02:25 2010. Look at the year. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 3 14:27:05 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:11:17 2010. Stranger projects have been economically feasibleVery few of them stranger than this strange trip. For an example of just some of the complexities involved, look at the construction of the original WTC and the landfill that became some of Battery Park City. That involved a rather small area and it was done in the late 1960s and early 1970s at a huge cost. look at the PRR with electrification all the way to DC. That's as strange as the project sketched? No, that would be insanity. Skyscrapers within takeoff range? A terrorist's dream come true. We already have many flight paths around here as anyone with a nice view of the region can tell you, and a deviation from even the presently slightly further out ones taking off from LGA, e.g., the recent flight with a double bird strike that ditched in the Hudson shows, it's a very, very short trip by air from any of the three major airports to Manhattan. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:57:37 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sun Jan 3 13:26:33 2010. PRR still ended in Jersey City (Pennsylvania Station and the Hudson River tunnels are 15 years away)NYP opened 1910, not 1908, FTR. The Third Avenue Railway is cable powered True, but wasn't long for the world, in spite of the cable system having been completed by 1893 after a rapid conversion from horse power that started seven years earlier (it was an innovative double-cable system as well, with each cable independently powered). The 10th Avenue line was electrified in 1895, and the entire system by 1899. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:59:32 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 13:20:04 2010. By today's "standards", yes. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 15:38:10 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. Actually, it's too bad that wasn't done. If it had been, the history and demographics of the city would be a lot different from what it is today. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 15:39:34 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 3 13:01:44 2010. No way uber rich Manhattan residents would allow an airport so close to their residences. Jet noise is strictly for the middle class Joe Lunchpails in Howard Beach. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 16:13:58 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 3 14:27:05 2010. For an example of just some of the complexities involved, look at the construction of the original WTC and the landfill that became some of Battery Park City. That involved a rather small area and it was done in the late 1960s and early 1970s at a huge costAFAICS, it didn't take multiple billions of public money. The WTC itself had a total cost of $900 million in 1973 dollars, but to the Port Authority. There were similar projects going on around Manhattan at the time of this proposal anyhow, like the Harlem River Ship Canal, which severed Marble Hill from Manhattan and subsequently led to its being attached to the Bronx. We already have many flight paths around here as anyone with a nice view of the region can tell you, and a deviation from even the presently slightly further out ones taking off from LGA, e.g., the recent flight with a double bird strike that ditched in the Hudson shows, it's a very, very short trip by air from any of the three major airports to Manhattan That doesn't mean that you should make the trip even shorter. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 16:15:20 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 15:38:10 2010. A great deal different. We might even be able to ride the Amtrak Royal Blue to Washington . . . |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 3 17:18:06 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jan 3 15:39:34 2010. Damn it, Howard Beach is not populated entirely by "Joe Lunchpails" |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 18:02:43 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:59:32 2010. No I meant for the time. That was a lowball estimate.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 18:19:14 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 18:02:43 2010. Judging by how much it cost to build NYP, it might not have been that low. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 18:21:07 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:31:21 2010. Wonder how many railroads they intended for it to serve, with fifteen tracks . . . |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 20:09:00 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 18:19:14 2010. NYP and this differ in scope by several degrees of magnitude though.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 3 21:04:51 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 16:15:20 2010. I'm thinking of another East River tube from Manh to Bkln and a possibility of a rapid transit tunnel from manh to SI. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Mon Jan 4 02:43:30 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 18:21:07 2010. Has there ever been a bridge with more tracks than Cannon Street? I can't think of any, and it's hard to find a good list on the 'net. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 4 06:01:33 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:31:21 2010. That was insane, even for the time. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 4 06:03:14 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 13:33:23 2010. I'm not sure it was feasible from an engineering perspective, noting it would have to be high enough to allow all those ships to pass under it (NY was once a port, you know). |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 4 07:00:54 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 4 06:03:14 2010. Chris, you don't know the first thing about engineering. And NY was once a port?! No sh*t! |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by znufrii on Mon Jan 4 09:10:29 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 18:21:07 2010. All of them. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 4 16:21:27 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by znufrii on Mon Jan 4 09:10:29 2010. No, not likely. The New Haven and NY Central were not going there. From New Jersey, there were at least eight roads, too. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 4 16:22:47 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 4 07:00:54 2010. I don't think you two are on a first name basis. I suggest you lay off the BS, eh? |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 4 17:58:05 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Mon Jan 4 02:43:30 2010. Well, the Manhattan Bridge had 8 tracks at one point. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Mon Jan 4 18:13:46 2010, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Mon Jan 4 02:43:30 2010. 8 tracks?????? where were they? |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 25 15:41:25 2010, in response to Best "Wish List" Proposal Ever, posted by ntrainride on Sun Jan 3 11:24:19 2010. Would this be best Subchat thread for 2010, i.e. in terms of quality? |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Nov 25 01:14:08 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jan 3 14:11:17 2010. Absolutely on skyscrapers near an airport. There's a reason the airports are considerable distances away.(And yes, I know I'm bringing up an old post, or in this case the "post within a post": http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1119577). |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:03:22 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by rbseabeach on Mon Jan 4 18:13:46 2010. Four subway and four trolley. Hardly eight heavy freight tracks. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:05:30 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 4 07:00:54 2010. Engineer or not, he is correct. That is what killed the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge offered by Moses. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:08:07 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Fred G on Sun Jan 3 20:09:00 2010. Not necessarily. The NYP scope included two sets of tunnels, enormous bridge and rail infrastructure in NJ, Manhattan, and Queens, and best of all, the Hell Gate. Land fill would have been VERY cheap in those pre-EPA days! |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 13:09:01 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:05:30 2011. Hmmmm, I hate necroposting, but I love people agreeing with me. I'm conflicted. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Nov 28 13:28:24 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:05:30 2011. Engineer or not, he is correct. No he's not. If a bridge needs to clear a certain height, then it will be engineered to clear a certain height. "Engineering feasibility" is not the problem and as I wrote, Chris doesn't know the first thing about engineering. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Nov 29 00:28:57 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by JRice on Mon Nov 28 13:05:30 2011. To be fair it really was the political connections the groups arrayed against the Brooklyn Battery Bridge had with the White House, which lead the Secretary of War to reject the BBB proposal on the grounds that it'd obstruct the Brooklyn Naval Yard. The actual clearance of the proposed bridge (around 200 feet IINM) was more than sufficient for anything in the US Navy's fleet. In any event the USN's fleet was restricted to 190 feet air draft by the Panama Canal, so the BBB would have been a non-issue.Just twenty years later the US Navy had no such objections to the Verrazano Bridge, despite an almost insignificant increase in clearance at a time when US Navy ships were growing *much* taller than their prewar predecessors, and the fact that its collapse would obstruct a much more strategically vital channel. Admittedly in the intervening years there were some changes in both transatlantic shipping and military logistics which reduced the role of the Hudson, but any objections to the Brooklyn Battery Bridge in 1939 should still have been perfectly valid as the Verrazano was being conceived in the 1960s. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Nov 29 06:55:08 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by WillD on Tue Nov 29 00:28:57 2011. Thank you, WillD. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Nov 29 11:10:17 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by WillD on Tue Nov 29 00:28:57 2011. Not to mention the existing Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges; the limited clearance was one of the top reasons for closing the Brooklyn Navy Yard. That, and the future looking quite nuclear. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by JRice on Tue Nov 29 12:45:33 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Nov 28 13:28:24 2011. And how do you get on or off the very high bridge? Just because a bridge can be built very high doesn't make it useful. |
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Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Nov 29 13:15:58 2011, in response to Re: Best ''Wish List'' Proposal Ever, posted by JRice on Tue Nov 29 12:45:33 2011. And how do you get on or off the very high bridge? Via long approachways. I'm well aware of what the consequences are. Like I said, engineering feasibility is not the problem. Practicality of the final design (after engineering it to account for all requirements) may be a problem but not the engineering feasibility. Just because a bridge can be built very high doesn't make it useful. Exactly. Engineering it is not the problem. The problem might be that some other element of the plan would need to change, such as the Manhattan station would need to be moved north, and that can't or won't be done for some reason. |
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