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| (872174) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:02:49 2009, in response to Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 21:43:02 2009. You'll want to grab the optocoupler out of the rodent and mount it (you can even cut it across the slot for more width between emitter and detector) as required but there's a problem. The transistor photodetector will burn out with the amount of current required to drive a relay. Therefore you'll need an emitter follower to drive the relay. Here's yer schematic - left side is the optocoupler from the rodent, right side is the rest of the circuit. Good luck Jim and remember if any of your IMF force are caught or captured, subchat will disavow any knowledge of your mission. :)  "Sig in" for the photodiode can go through a 100 ohm or so resistor, values given on the left expect 5 volts or less. Change the 50 ohmer to 500 ohms and the "sig in " resistor to about 1K ohms for 12 volts in. VCC is the positive lead, all connected together. But this shuld be enough to give you the general idea ... |
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| (872181) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:09:32 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:02:49 2009. Cool. Thanks.LIONS like simple circuits. ROAR |
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| (872184) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:12:43 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:02:49 2009. Meant to add as to circuit function: The relay will be pulled in in the ABSENCE of a train. When the train interrupts the beam, the relay will drop out, indicating train presence. If power fails, train presence will also be detected as far as the relay goes, so it's almost vital. :) |
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| (872189) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:17:22 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:09:32 2009. Less parts, less farts ... Madman Muntz school of design. :) |
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| (872209) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 13 22:45:00 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:02:49 2009. Place a magnet on the bottom of your train and a magnetic reed switch between the rails. You can get the stuff from Digikey. |
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| (872210) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:46:36 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 13 22:45:00 2009. Ewww! Electromechanical ... how 90's! :) |
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| (872211) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:48:51 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:12:43 2009. I'll have to dissect a rodent to see what I could do with it. The last detector circuit that I looked at, and both the emitter and the receiver pointed almost straight up, thus the presence of a train would reflect the signal back to the detector.ROAR |
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| (872214) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:56:28 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:48:51 2009. Most rodents have wheels that the ball turns. On the end of the shafts is a disk with holes in it and the interrupters look like this: If what you have is a reflector type, that'll be a pain in the butt since you'll have to ensure your trains are red or shiny, so you ARE halfway there even if that's the case. With the earlier, more standard type you can probably get a lot more meese on the cheap with that configuration even if you have to slice the optocouplers, and if it's the latter it'll probably work anyway. You can't lose! Only real trick is buying a sufficiently low current relay so you don't have to buy high current transistors to drive it. |
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| (872215) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:59:10 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:46:36 2009. Well, the LION *is* doing that for his car lighting. I have wired my trains into six car sets: 48 wheel power pickup. Use a 9v. Battery to light the cars, there is a reed switch hidden in the roof of one car, and when it is parked under a magnet, the lights go out. Maybe the cleaners finished their work, and the train is laid up for the night.ROAR |
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| (872216) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 13 22:59:29 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:48:51 2009. 3 rail makes things so much easier. Use one rail as a ground and one rail as the signal rail - just like the real thingy. |
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| (872217) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:00:53 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:46:36 2009. oh, you mean reliable? seriously the cheapest is likely to be the magnet/reed switches designed for burglar alarms which are usually 12 vdc systems. You can get NO or NC switches, |
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| (872219) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:07:12 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:56:28 2009. this has gotten me to thinking. puffs of smoke exiting ears. depending on how many "blocks" you have on your RR some alarm panels might even give you an output that you could use as a rudimentary CTC display. Often they are set up to indicate "occupancy" of as many as 8 zones. |
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| (872220) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:12:08 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:00:53 2009. Agreed ... but these is modern times. You need a CPU to make toast nowadays. :) |
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| (872221) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:13:07 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 22:59:10 2009. Neat trick ... then leave those mice to the little cats, eh? :) |
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| (872222) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:14:01 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 13 22:59:29 2009. The real thingy is like Lionel? But just yesterday ... :) |
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| (872225) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:21:02 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:07:12 2009. Yep ... and if you want to go all the way back to 74LS NAND gates like I did years ago, you can actually set up an NYCTA-like block signalling system. I've had my N gauge subway layout down for a couple of years now but I still have the interlocking and terminal circuits I built for it. Full ATO with two track mainline, yards and stub terminals NYCT style. |
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| (872239) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:58:28 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:12:08 2009. YOU might, I don't. While I certainly appreciate some of the ideas out there DCC for instance, my Ho fleet has several quite elderly steamers which run nicely with their original 'open frame' Pittman motors. As such I have no interest in redoing them to the 21st century stuff. |
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| (872242) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:02:49 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:58:28 2009. I scoff at the concept of CPU's in coffee machines and toasters. Bimetal switches are good enough for me. :) |
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| (872248) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:07:20 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:14:01 2009. Apples and oranges once again. Get your crayons and your Winky-Dink magic screen and we'll work on it. |
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| (872250) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:12:50 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:07:20 2009. Oh boy! Let's help winky dink put some oil in those R160 gearboxes! Are ya READY, kids? Aye-aye, cap'n! :) |
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| (872251) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:14:12 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:02:49 2009. just selling off the overproduction of obsolete microprocessors. |
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| (872252) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:15:14 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:14:12 2009. Heh. How many Z80's does it take to start an R160?None ... they use 386's. :) |
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| (872254) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:15:51 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:12:50 2009. and that's all for the little bastards for this week. IIRC those were his comments which went out over the net because the mike... |
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| (872256) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:18:50 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:15:14 2009. hey this machine which is running on ubuntu is using an Athlon 1800--quite fast enough for what I do. "7" why bother? |
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| (872259) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:21:32 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:15:51 2009. Heh. You're thinking of the Uncle Don show ... NBC ... :) |
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| (872260) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:22:09 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Dec 14 00:18:50 2009. BSD here ... :) |
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| (872267) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:33:39 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:12:50 2009. I know that you find facts confusing but I don't know what you think I have to do with the R-160s. I assure you that I have charge of nary one. I suggest you aim your empty scuds at someone who might care. Your buffoonery is hardly stimulating. |
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| (872268) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:35:39 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:33:39 2009. But you keep responding. And hey ... *I* know why they won't let you anywhere near a "modern" train ... you'd have to know where to stick the serial port without snapping off the socket. :) |
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| (872274) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:52:35 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 00:35:39 2009. I guess that same logic explains why they took your handles away from you! |
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| (872279) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 01:15:10 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 14 00:52:35 2009. Heh. Yeah, they caught me using them in the #1 end of an arnine which was really a time machine, traveling into the future to break R160's instead of taking my lineup and going. Yep ... gotta hand it to you, a mylar hat sure does beat a tinfoil one. :) |
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| (872303) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Dec 14 07:54:11 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 22:46:36 2009. Electromechanical ... how 90's!If it works, it's not sophisticated. |
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| (872322) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Dave on Mon Dec 14 09:03:38 2009, in response to Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 13 21:43:02 2009. Elias, a couple of months ago Model Railroader had an article about building track detectors. You may want to check it out. |
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| (872356) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 14 12:08:20 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Dec 13 23:07:12 2009. Yes, well, the mane lion on this layout is EIGHT scale MILES. (Four each way) not including a four track mane lion on the Brighton, all of it to be signaled.LION thinks he will be looking at 200 signal heads before he is done building signal heads. For the moment, they are simply controlled by local 4P3T slide switches. I can set them up for a photo shoot, and they make the layout look like a subway layout, but they do not actually function. LION thinks he would need 100 mice to make 200 detectors. I can probably arrange them at an angle to each other across the track on a diagonal so that they will not be fooled by the gap between the cars. Still it will take a circuitary genius to plot how the heads might be wired. LIONS know about relays, but have never really worked with transistors. Of course home signals can be tied into the switch machines. ROAR |
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| (872360) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 14 12:26:38 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Dave on Mon Dec 14 09:03:38 2009. Yes, I saw that. They were the ones that pointed the detectors straight up and detected the reflection. LION is looking for CHEAP. 200 signal heads require a lot of detection.ROAR |
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| (872407) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 14 14:20:35 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Dave on Mon Dec 14 09:03:38 2009. So, you read Model Railroader?Did you see the letter from the LION in the January issue. ROAR |
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| (872413) | |
Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 14:41:52 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:21:02 2009. Oooooh! Living dangerous with the TTL stuff...I'm surprised the railfans aren't jumping up and down in a frothing mad rage over the mere mention of NAND gates! The way 1970s electronic equipment on streetcars seems to infuriate them. I might start posting emails from one of the local mailing lists about electronics... -Robert King |
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| (872431) | |
Re: Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 15:47:53 2009, in response to Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors, posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 14:41:52 2009. Heh. Don't be dissing my 74LS, boy! :)They were a WHOLE lot more reliable than the 4000 series CMOS chips which were friendlier to higher voltages. Only problem with CD4016's and such though was that if you waved your hand over some of those chips, they'd toggle states without any signal changes at all. Now picture those on a streetcah when someone wearing fur touched the farebox. Heh. |
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| (872433) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 15:57:28 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 14 12:08:20 2009. Good thing Anaconda Copper ain't too far away from ya. :)You'll be on this project though as long as the Empty-yay has unless you hire up some signal giselles or a contractor ... perhaps a rethink might be in order for your long term goals - I went with track sections and relay coils in series with the power to determine where MY trains were. Have a look at these guys ... they'll help to keep you to your vow of poverty. :) http://www.modeltrainsignals.com/html/desc-use.htm They even have flashy things so you can run your trains to Canarsie. :) |
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| (872434) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 16:00:09 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Dec 14 07:54:11 2009. Damned engineers! :) |
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| (872436) | |
Re: Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 16:20:02 2009, in response to Re: Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 15:47:53 2009. I like 75LS stuff - have a stash at home for projects. :)I also have some CMOS stuff too but I've never had any occasion to use it since I prefer to deal with the voltage issue by using optoisolators or other level conversion circuits. Now that you mention it though, a streetcar with spontaneous state changing electronics could be an interesting ride! Electronics is the work of the devil if you listen to the local railfans though, so it's always fun to see some real discussion about electronics for transit or modeling purposes as opposed to the usual "When SEPTA K/PCC-II/TTC CLRV cars go to trolley museums, they'll have to rip all the modern junk off and install PCC equipment to make the cars run..." garbage. -Robert King |
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| (872437) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 16:22:03 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:12:08 2009. Why do you need the CPU? To generate the heat or to control the toaster? Or, go with a dual processor toaster and have one CPU for each task!-Robert King |
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| (872445) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 16:55:07 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 16:22:03 2009. Heh. I'll be dipped if I know why ... but if it's an Intel, I guess they don't need nichrome coils. And I suppose with a dual processor, it can toast both sides at once. :) |
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| (872450) | |
Re: Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 17:05:00 2009, in response to Re: Those pesky 74LS00 and 74LS01 chips! / Re: Track Detectors, posted by Robert King on Mon Dec 14 16:20:02 2009. Never went with the 75 series, was too comfortable with 74 ... built lots of routing switchers with those bad boys, and CMOS switches for the matrices. Sadly though, like Grass Valley of yore, I prefered 2N4124's and 2N4126's galore so I could do +/- amplifier circuits to make video clamping happy. I had this obsession with no overshoots or spikes on sync clamps and flat out to 50 MHz in the amplifiers.In some ways though, I'd agree with the foamers and railway engineers. Stuff that shorts out when they see 10 volts on an input aren't such a great idea if there's the remote possibility that 600 volts might appear some day. Though if I could assure myself that I would never be riding on top of electric traction when that occurred, I might consider designing it. :) |
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| (872460) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Dec 14 17:45:24 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Dec 14 12:08:20 2009. this layout is EIGHT scale MILES...I can probably arrange them at an angle to each other across the track on a diagonal so that they will not be fooled by the gap between the cars.Let me try to scope the problem out a bit. (caveat I'm not into model trains). You need to cover every millimeter of your 8 mile layout with track detectors. How they are tied together determines the number of blocks and signals. You have 8 miles. Let's assume that a detector can determine the presence of a single car. You are rightly worried about the gap. Add more detectors and overlap them vis-a-vis car length. That way at least one of the sensors will detect a car within the block. Assume you are using 2 sensors per car length to accomplish this. You've got 8 miles or 42,240 feet. That's 704 car lengths, assuming 60 foot cars. That's the seat of the pants estimate of scope. If you are considering the opto route for sensors, start calculating supply voltage current. 700+ IC's is a hefty load. The magnetic reed switch should be less power hungry. |
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| (872532) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Dec 14 22:00:41 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Dec 13 23:21:02 2009. If you're going to mess around with a bunch of discretecomponents and wires, you might as well just build the model RR signal system out of cheap relays! Otherwise, one 40-pin PIC microcontroller will do everything that a board full of 74LSxx chips will, cheaper! A former good poster who was chased away by RonBS actually built an NX interlocking with relays and air-powered model RR switches too! |
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| (872540) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Dec 14 22:10:35 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Dec 14 22:00:41 2009. Oh, if I had the time and money, I'd go to town. Heh. Nice air compressor and tiny copper tubing to throw the existing mechanical switches in style! :)There's still some magic though for relaxation in either fiddling with perfboard or better yet, bishop graphics donuts and tape and dump a nice chunk of copper into ferric chloride solution ... I'm that kinda guy. Toy trains are cool and all that, but to me the fun is building. |
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| (872864) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Robert King on Tue Dec 15 19:54:05 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Dec 14 22:00:41 2009. If you can get free TTL by pulling chips out of scrap equipment, why not? You can consider alternative sources of parts other than buying new sinc there's no requirement to use new parts on the model train.-Robert King |
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| (872992) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Tue Dec 15 22:55:27 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Robert King on Tue Dec 15 19:54:05 2009. sure, the chips are free, but you need so many of them. It'sa lot harder to re-use printed circuit boards to make a new circuit. 7400 series is a good teaching tool. |
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| (872995) | |
Re: Track Detectors |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Dec 15 23:01:42 2009, in response to Re: Track Detectors, posted by Jeff H. on Tue Dec 15 22:55:27 2009. One of my favorite chips years ago was the 74LS123 dual monostable multivibrator. Pick off the 31.5 KHz squarewave off the audio IF, condition the signal and use the trailing edge to trigger one of them from a scrambled cable channel. The output was a perfect recreation of the blanking signal that would then be fed into an emitter follower on the RF AGC of the TV set. Unscrambled any pay channel including the ones where they did the gain shift trick. LOVED 74LS. :) |
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