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| (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 (867590) | |
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| (867590) | |
(KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009 From July 1,1968 to 1972, the (KK) made "B" stops and the (QJ) made "A" stops between the old 168th Street-Jamaica Terminal and Eastern Parkway:* 168th Street-Jamaica Terminal A/B * 160th Street B * Sutphin Boulevard A/B * Queens Boulevard B * Metropolitan Avenue B * 121st Street A * 111th Street A * 104th Street B * Woodhaven Boulevard A * Forest Parkway A * Elderts Lane A/B * Cypress Hills B * Crescent Street A * Norwood Avenue B * Cleveland Street A * Alabama Avenue B * Van Siclen Avenue B * Eastern Parkway A/B Under this pattern, (KK) trains made twelve stops and (QJ) trains made ten stops; four stops (168th Street, Sutphin Boulevard, Elderts Lane and Eastern Parkway) were common stops. Plus the (QJ) had one place where it made consecutive stops and it made consecutive stops from Woodhaven Boulevard to Elderts Lane before skipping a stop; the (KK) had one place plus it made consecutive stops from 168th Street to Metropolitan Avenue before it skipped two stops. Cypress Hills to Alabama Avenue was the one even skip-stop section. |
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| (867601) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Dec 5 14:27:12 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. That stop pattern only makes sense if the QJ ran more often than the KK. |
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| (867603) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Dec 5 14:30:52 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. Van Siclen and Alabama are the other way round, not that it makes much difference. This does look like an acid-influenced service pattern. |
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| (867607) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Dec 5 14:45:54 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. 2.0K 121st Street A2.6K 111th Street A 2.5K 104th Street B 4.1K Woodhaven Boulevard A 3.7K Forest Parkway A 3.8K Elderts Lane A/B 1.4K Cypress Hills B 4.4K Crescent Street A 3.4K Norwood Avenue B 2.9K Cleveland Street A 2.4K Van Siclen Avenue B 2.1K Alabama Avenue B On the part of the line still existing served by the KK, we have 13.7K daily riders On the part of the line still existing served by the QJ, we have 20.6K daily riders This service pattern makes very little sense unless the QJ ran significantly more than the KK. |
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| (867630) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 5 15:44:46 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Dec 5 14:30:52 2009. You shoulda seen the groovy colours on the map, dad. I'd say purple haze. :) |
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| (867654) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Andy on Sat Dec 5 16:23:21 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. This pattern was not new. It was actually started in 1959 on the then-#15 Jamaica Ave. El, as a means of reducing travel time on the line. The trains were split into an A/B pattern (TA called it "skip-stop") as shown in the posting. When the KK started in 1968 the skip-stop pattern continued. The KK was also an attempt to draw customers from the E at 169th Street in Jamaica by providing one seat service to Midtown from the Jamaica El, which never had it before (and couldn't have it till the Willy B - Chrystie connection opened). Unfortuntely most riders weren't interested because while the trip to downtown Manhattan was faster on the Jamaica El, the midtown trip took about 15 minutes longer on old R1-9 cars while the E and F were using newer equipment. |
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| (867655) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 16:23:59 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 5 15:44:46 2009. Nassau Street had blue for the (K), light blue for the (M) and black for the (J) then.(AA) (F) (MJ) and (4) each were fuschia. |
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| (867687) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 5 17:08:32 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 16:23:59 2009. Yep ... those colors are ingrained in my pea-sized brain. As a conductor, I had to explain them to lots of people "back in the day" ... most normal map I ever had to deal with. Heh. |
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| (867763) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 5 19:05:56 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. I still say that the justification of more than one routing on this section (east of Bway Jct) can only make sense if you have an express-on-local setup such that the express leaves Bway Jct. immediately before the local and so does not catch up to the local in front of it until close to Jamaica Ctr.My alignment (posted here before): Z leaves Bway Jct. immediately before J, express except stopping at Crescent St, Woodhaven Blvd, and Sutphin Blvd. This would mean 10 stops skipped. At an approximated 45 seconds gained per skipped stop, this would mean 450 seconds gained altogether, or 7.5 minutes. Since the J currently runs every 10 minutes during rush hours, no schedule conflicts occur. Timing the Z to leave immediately before the J at Bway Jct. can be arranged either by having the Z run express from Myrtle to Bway Jct. while the J runs local, such that the Z comes from behind and meets the J at Bway Jct. Or, both trains can run local from Myrtle to Bway Jct. and just have the J follow the Z in front of it all the way from Broad St. In that case, the M would come immediately behind the J and would clear the switches at Myrtle before the following Z arrives (that express from Myrtle to Marcy does not save much time at all, especially because of the need of the express to switch over). At least part of the function of the J/Z should be to take some Jamaica people off the E. The Z that I propose, I think, is a good start at attracting riders. |
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| (867767) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sat Dec 5 19:12:29 2009, in response to (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 14:02:49 2009. Interesting!! |
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| (867795) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 5 19:52:04 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 16:23:59 2009. yup, having the giant route signs on the Slants was great. You could tell by color long before you could read the letter. |
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| (867846) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 5 20:54:46 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Union Turnpike on Sat Dec 5 16:23:59 2009. The only thing was that at the time with the exception of a very small number of R-42s on the J, and K the cars (R-9s) were unable to display the colors. Also , the K was not a Nassau St route, it was 6 Ave. Those lines would fall under the general group of Bway Bkln. |
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| (867851) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 5 21:00:22 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Andy on Sat Dec 5 16:23:21 2009. Actually, at that time there was sill a substantial number of R-9s on the E and F along with the newer equipment. Initially, when first started, the A/B skip stop was Manhattan bound in the AM only and in the PMs, the Bway Bkln lcls shortlined at either E/Pky, Atlantic, Canarsie and Crescent St. When the KK route was initiated, it was both AM and PM in the peak direction of travel. By the time I became a road M/M in 1969, it was back to AM only but most of the PM KKs went all the way through to Jamaica with the QJ and KK making all stops. |
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| (867852) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 5 21:04:29 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 5 19:05:56 2009. In the schedule office, we used to estimate that each station stop only added 30 sec to the running time between 2 given timepoints thus the saving would be in the neighborhood of 300 sec or 5 min. In the case of the Jamaica Line, withy the GT signals in the area of Crescent St, the saving in runtime would probably be less since even a train skipping between Crescent and Woodhaven would not be able to pickup that much time. |
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| (867996) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 6 08:17:29 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Andy on Sat Dec 5 16:23:21 2009. A lot of politics must have gone into picking who got what.Eldarts Lane was an A&B stop because of Franklin K. Lane High School. It was useful before local community school boards were set up around 1969 when a lot of Richmond Hill and Woodhaven kids could have just as well have gone there as Richmond Hill High. By the late 1960's FKL caused a spike in the crime rate. It also lead my parents to move to Nassau County after my elemetary school days in 1968. The "15" trains were 8 car R16's for at most 2 hours per rush period, including the limited skip-stop period. The "14" could be either 5 or 6 cars, either R16's or Standards were fair game. That explains the imbalance of ridership - it matched train length. |
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| (867997) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 6 08:20:51 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by R30A on Sat Dec 5 14:45:54 2009. Are those ridership stats today's or 40 years ago ?Why would Crescent Street have so much when it is spitting distance to the IND ? |
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| (868223) | |
Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 6 17:27:52 2009, in response to Re: (KK) And (QJ) Skip-Stop Service 1968-1972, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 6 08:17:29 2009. Towards the end of their service life, a train of Multis would show up for one AM trip on the 14. |
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