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| BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation (859432) | |
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| (859434) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 20:48:01 2009, in response to BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 20:42:14 2009. Your theory as to the repalcement of the grill style to the vent style seems to be logical. Next time you ride the arnines, take a good long look at the roofline and interior and you'll see the same arrangement as in your last two shots. MY guess would be that there wasn't enough air movement with the first two designs while the latter design did cause much better air movement at the expense of some water getting in, which was trapped along the roofline rather than falling on people's heads.You'll note that on each half of each car, the positioning of the vents acted much like scoops in the front half of the car and exhaust on the rear half of the car in either direction, and that would move quite a bit of air with that arrangement as opposed to the earlier designs. |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 20:56:19 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 20:48:01 2009. Yup. I guess part of my question was since the Lo-V's already used the "Arnine style", were the earlier BMT patterns just an experiment where they just said "Ah, we'll go back to the old way" (Lo-V style) with 2600's and up? And then by the time the Arnines came around, the IND just mimicked the design from the 2600's and up considering it the most successful? |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:02:03 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 20:56:19 2009. Actually, if you think about the BMT's penchant for "patent hell," that the arnines had that at all would suggest that the BMT was unable to patent the design. Any of those designs would have flowed some of the warmer air that gathered in the celestory, but the advantage of the "arnine" design was that when the car was moving, bernoulli took over without the need to force air with a motor. And one of the preps for the arnines was struggling with those levers to make certain that those roof vents were open. Some of those levers didn't want to move after a bunch of years which is why I remember them well. :)And them IRT guys were cheap bastards but VERY clever and resourceful. |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:07:33 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 20:56:19 2009. BTW ... the IRT tried the other design too in their 1938 WF cars, as did the BoT in the Artens ...  Anyone who rode either car class can tell you they got MIGHTY stuffy inside. :( |
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| (859455) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 21:14:01 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:07:33 2009. True. Never rode anything with that grill vent design in service, save for an R10 once in the 80's when I was a little guy...I don't remember much about the ride other than the noise level, which had a lot to do with the windows being open :) so maybe that speaks volumes in itself. Thanks. |
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| (859456) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Nov 16 21:17:34 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 20:48:01 2009. You are right it was all about air flow. The clerestory roof provided for better airflow. |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:19:55 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 21:14:01 2009. Heh. Then big windows were about the only air movement there WAS in artens ... those dinky fans on the posts didn't do squatola. :) |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:21:14 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by BMTLines on Mon Nov 16 21:17:34 2009. Cheapskates often come up with the best ideas. :) |
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| (859463) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 21:25:53 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by BMTLines on Mon Nov 16 21:17:34 2009. Thanks. Interesting. So the IRT was actually "ahead of its time" so to speak in using that clerestory roof style on the Hi and the Lo-V's, many of which had been built even before the 2600's and up Standards.Amazing they were still trying the grilled vent style almost 30 years later on the R10s/12s/14s. |
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| (859471) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:41:09 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 21:25:53 2009. Yeah, years later, they merely covered up the grilled vent style better. :) Can't spend all night trying to find a photo where they didn't put metal on top of the roof grates that were originally there, but even the R40's had that same thing going on. ALL NYCTA cars did before air conditioning:  So in the end, what had been a proven airflow design, reverted back to the stupid for many many cars which followed. :( |
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| (859541) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Nov 16 23:29:21 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:19:55 2009. The R10's fans did nothing for anyone in the car except the two people directly in the path of the air they blew. Perhaps if they oscillated they would have worked better. They made an awful racket to boot.-w- |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Nov 17 00:08:51 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Nov 16 23:29:21 2009. Heh. They were completely useless. :) |
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| (859642) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 17 02:17:19 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by straphanger9 on Mon Nov 16 21:25:53 2009. Not only that, but even the BMT reverted to that design for the Multis. |
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| (859685) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 05:59:01 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Nov 17 00:08:51 2009. Heh. They were completely useless. :)The design of the R-10 interior boasted a nice streamlined ceiling which unfortunately gave us small fans that were noisier and less efficient than the older 'paddle' fans. If the R-10 and also the R-12/12 had a clerestory style roof then a different fan style would have been used. But in 1950 with the debut of the R-15, the problem of not using an exposed ceiling fan and smaller mini fans was solved with the axiflow style fan. This would used in car contracts for the next 17 years ending in the non airconditioned R-40 slants. Ah yes...the roaring axiflows. Bill Newkirk |
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| (859686) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 06:01:31 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 17 02:17:19 2009. Not only that, but even the BMT reverted to that design for the Multis.And the Multi's also had small fans much like the R-10/12/14. Bill Newkirk |
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| (859691) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Nov 17 06:37:10 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 06:01:31 2009. Ahem.The R10/12/14s has small fans and ogee roofs like the Multis. |
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| (859694) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Nov 17 07:01:08 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 05:59:01 2009. But in 1950 with the debut of the R-15, the problem of not using an exposed ceiling fan and smaller mini fans was solved with the axiflow style fan. This would used in car contracts for the next 17 years ending in the non airconditioned R-40 slants. The R-15's were the worst of the lot. They did not have roof vents as can be seen from this picture. The outside air was "drawn in" through vents above half the windows. The vents are above windows on the left in this photo. It wasn't until the R16's that they cut the hole in the roof let out the hot air. |
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| (859708) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Tue Nov 17 08:17:55 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SLRT on Tue Nov 17 06:37:10 2009. And the BMT Q-type cars on the Myrtle Avenue line had to have their ceiling roofs in the 1950's-1960's lowered so to then have small fans installed on them. Also, the R-10/12/14's had their 12-inch diameter fans placed on dual bracket arms, but one for each socket opening.-William A. Padron ["a.c.f."] |
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| (859711) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Tue Nov 17 08:29:08 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Nov 17 07:01:08 2009. The R-10/12/14's fans really do not anything in terms of coolness but just circulate the air at best and nothing more, that I will agree to (coming from myself as an R-10 fan, no pun intended). I personally thought that the R-27/30's has the best non-air conditioned axiflow fans for any NYC subway cars that I personally experienced.However, someone should point out that the Pittsburgh Railways' 1700-series PCC cars, built in 1948-49 by St. Louis Car Co., also had large subway-type axiflow fans and all of its passenger side windows were sealed. They did have a very large roof (almost like in a "hump" or semi-ogee design) that did a very thin and long vent opening on each side, as I recall. -William A. Padron ["47D Drake Shuttle"] |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by BMTLines on Tue Nov 17 08:56:02 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 05:59:01 2009. I found that the axiflow fans were just good at circulating hot air - I absolutely hated them compared to the ceiling fans of the Arnines. At least with the R 29/30's I could kneel on a seat and let the wind blow in my face from the window or stand next to the open door at the end of the car for the same effect. The debut of the picture windows that barely opened made things much worse.Of course that all changed with air conditioning. |
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| (859789) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Brighton Private on Tue Nov 17 11:24:15 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Nov 16 21:41:09 2009. To be fair, I can't think of any railcars that were built with celerestory roofs after roughly the 1930s.The LIRR's MP54's were built with rounded roofs despite not being air conditioned, for example. The streamliner era made all clerestory roofs look old-fashioned. Even today, when you look at RR pictures, they are just about the easiest way to spot older rolling stock. So I can't fault the TA for ditching them. |
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| (859869) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 17 14:14:27 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Nov 17 08:17:55 2009. If my info is correct, the fans that were installed in the Qs were the ones removed from the Multis that were being scrapped around the same time as the Qs' roofs were being lowered. |
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| (859942) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Nov 17 16:15:40 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Brighton Private on Tue Nov 17 11:24:15 2009. While that's true as far as outside appearances go ("looks are EVERYTHING") in fact, the interior roofing inside the car pretty much kept the concept all the way out into the R40's where powerful fans were used to compensate for the lack of airflow on the roofline. But it was only about external appearances. |
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| (859996) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:15:58 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SLRT on Tue Nov 17 06:37:10 2009. Ahem.The R10/12/14s has small fans and ogee roofs like the Multis.I'm aware of that. Bill Newkirk |
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| (859997) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:19:12 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Nov 17 07:01:08 2009. The R-15's were the worst of the lot. They did not have roof vents as can be seen from this picture.Agreed, I don't know what the BoT was thinking when they designed the R-15. Perhaps a rushed design. Bill Newkirk |
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| (860007) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:31:15 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by BMTLines on Tue Nov 17 08:56:02 2009. I found that the axiflow fans were just good at circulating hot air - I absolutely hated them compared to the ceiling fans of the Arnines.When it's hot and humid, nothing seems to help. I do remember the thermostatically controlled plenum's in the ceilings of the R-32 when riding. When the R-32's were new and the weather was just warm, you'd hear the sounds of the motors opening or closing the plenum's one section at a time all down the line. I guess as years passed and with deferred maintenance, the plenum's probably weren't maintained and just broke down. The debut of the picture windows that barely opened made things much worse. The design of the European styled vent windows starting with the R-33/36's were probably an answer to public complaints of open drop sash windows that would let in rain during a downpour. The flip in vent window would almost eliminate folks getting rained on while sitting on the seats. But you're right, the drop sash windows were best for ventilation, considering it wasn't raining outside. Bill Newkirk |
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| (860014) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Nov 17 19:36:56 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Nov 16 23:29:21 2009. IMHO they really didn't add to the racket those cars made while in full flight. |
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| (860020) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Nov 17 19:47:51 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Nov 17 07:01:08 2009. Look at 9153. You'd never guess that it's red underneath all that grime. |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by straphanger9 on Wed Nov 18 00:47:36 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:31:15 2009. Hmm...and I always thought the vent windows were for safety more than anything else (making it hard for people to stick body parts outside of the car for one) |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Nov 18 16:03:32 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:19:12 2009. I had heard that the R-15 design was something that was submitted by ACF and the B of T liked it and that's why the cars were ordered that way. |
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| (860583) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Nov 18 16:10:54 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:31:15 2009. From what I have heard, by the time of the '64 World's Fair, the TA's designers were looking to modernize the appearance of NYCTA rolling stock to come more in line with other transit systems such as Boston and the H & M which had picture windows on their rolling stock since the 1950s. In order to avoid the disadvantages of completely sealed windows on cars which unlike the H & M would have no air conditioning, the TA came up with the vent window design which was applied to all subsequent NYCTA car orders and even retrofitted to Cleveland's rapid transit cars which also had non A/C cars with sealed windows. |
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| (861061) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Nov 19 06:42:00 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 17 14:14:27 2009. That may be, but I didn't recall the Qs as having high roofs that long. The Qs hit Myrtle in 1958 and the Multis were scrapped in 1961. Bur it was long ago... |
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| (861063) | |
Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Nov 19 06:44:01 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 17 19:15:58 2009. I thought you were. I was just noting that the City never seemed to have an original idea in their heads. |
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Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Nov 19 11:02:55 2009, in response to Re: BMT Standard Roofs and Ventilation, posted by SLRT on Thu Nov 19 06:44:01 2009. I thought you were. I was just noting that the City never seemed to have an original idea in their heads.Acknowledged. Bill Newkirk |
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