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| (851972) | |
Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 13:13:57 2009 As everyone knows the R-68 was introduced on the D line in 1986. It was clean, shiny and new. It had polycarbonate windows. Vandals discovered they could scratch their tags into the windows. Then when the R-68A was introduced, it came in with glass but the vandals used other tools to carve up the glass, then they ran out of room so they started to scratch and carve up the steel interiors. Then came the acid etching of the glass. FINALLY the TA declared war on glass scratchitti in 2007. Today the R-68's all have new glass with vandal resistent screens. As a result the windows are MAINTAINED scratchitti-free. Unfortunately the stainless steel walls are still destroyed with the R-68A cars looking the worst. ANy one have any ideas how to deal with this situation? Replace the walls? Buff them or change the interiors. I rode car 2884 this morning and there was practically no wall scratchitti. All of the glass was sparkling and it was the closest I have seen an R-68 to perfection since 1986 when they were first introduced. |
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| (851986) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 3 13:57:46 2009, in response to Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 13:13:57 2009. ANy one have any ideas how to deal with this situation? Replace the walls? Buff them or change the interiors.There's nothing much the TA can do. If the metal is sanded, it will look even worse. If it's buffed, the scratches will most likely remain since a layer of plated metal has to be compounded down for scratches to disappear. New panels made of Formica would have to be manufactured to replaced the chrome plated metal ones. And that's just not cost effective and time consuming. I guess they felt that graffiti applied to the chrome plated walls would be easier to remove than a painted surface, but the didn't see scratchitti was down the road. Bill Newkirk |
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| (852002) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 14:19:37 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 3 13:57:46 2009. Ok, but we continue to allow vandals to get free advertising. SOme of these marks are 20 years old. As long as it remains, vandals will continue to scratch glass and metal throughout the system. Elevators, glass panels near station stairswells, metal doors, glass block in stations, Glass in kiosks, Glass in token booths; (i.e. 42nd & 6th; the booth on 40th has had acid etch tags for two years, two weeks ago ANOTHER tag was added!)Something needs to be done to eliminate this blight. Does this mean I have to deal with this for another 20 years? |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (852003) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 14:26:44 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 14:19:37 2009. There will always be something. They get rid of one thing, the vandals find something else. TBH I rather have scratchitti than grafitti or even worse acid. Who knows what else they will try to do, so let them scratch. |
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| (852011) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 15:25:02 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 14:26:44 2009. Lets say you decided to purchase a new 2010 CL 63 AMG. THen you parked it outside your friend's house. You came out and you found the car keyed or you found scratchitti on a window or the body of the car itself. Would you still feel the same way?This car costs about $200,000.00 new. An R-160 costs about 1.5 million apiece. Vandalism leads to vandalism. It should not be tolerated anywhere. Better yet, suppose you owned a store in Manhattan. You do not want to install gates because it is unesthetic and the banks in the entire city have no gates. Then one morning you come in and there is scratchitti on your window ir acid etch how would you feel then? |
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| (852014) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 15:35:27 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 15:25:02 2009. No that is true. Now personally I do hate scratchitti and the other forms of vandalism, but I am not sure how the MTA can combat all of these problems. They got rid of grafitti on the trains (although a lot of other areas in the system is covered), but now you have scratchitti, and now you also have acid etching as they are trying to get rid of scratchitti. Who knows what they will think of next, and the next thing may make all other things seem not as bad, so I am just saying let's take the lesser of the evils. |
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| (852022) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 16:01:24 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 15:35:27 2009. Understood but remember the broken window theory of crime prevention.Graffiti did not die, it shifted. This is because the TA basically does not address graffiti on track walls. This is a major issue along open cuts like the N line or Q line in Brooklyn. There is graffiti on hundreds of T.A. surfaces adjacent to the tracks. The vandals want recognition. If the DOT can keep the vast highway system clean, and the DOH can keep public housing walls clean and the Parks Dept can keep the Parks clean, the MTA can keep track walls, and all other surfaces clean. It took from 1983 until 2000 to ride in a subway car free of window scratchitti. WHen the R-142 was introduced the TA implimented a zero tollerance program with regards to scratchitti on the glass. Not virtually the entire 142, 143 & 160 fleet are free of window scratchitti. In the 70's & 80's no one though it was possible to have graffiti-free trains. THat was accompished by 5/12/89. Then in the late 80's into the present no one thought you can have scratchitti-free windows. THat was accomplished with the introduction of the R-142 in 2000. Now we need to expand the scratchitti-free program to include stainless steel subway car interiors, stainless steel surfaces throughout the system, and glass throughout the system. Finally we need to include track walls and other TA property along the open cuts. When all that is achieved, we can finally begin to move away from the gritty environment. There will be less litter, less rats and the environment will be much better for all. Peeling pain filth and disgusting stations should NOT be tolerated. I honestly could care less how much it costs. Get it done, encourage private corporations to sponsor stations etc... |
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| (852033) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 16:33:49 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 16:01:24 2009. I agree but tbh there is only so much they can do. I'd rather them keep the trains rolling than have all stations and trains clean. In this economy it is a real choice for them, have scratchitti or keep the 12:35pm train (an example)? Sorry train wins |
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| (852042) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 16:52:44 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 16:33:49 2009. I do not want to beat a dead horse but the second ave subway has taken decades to build becasue of this thinking. The system has always been gritty because of the failure at the top to address these issues. THey are always pushed to the back burner and I am sick and tired of it. WIth the unemployment rate so high, there is plenty of work to address what I have just listed in my previous posts. It seems there is always one excuse after another. Have you ever noticed ther stations along the MetroNorth or LIRR? Compare them to lets say the Brighton Line or Sea Beach Line? It is a disgrace. The MTA rehabillitated the entire Franklin Avenue SHuttle a few short years ago, look at it now. These conditions would never be tolerated in suburbia. |
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| (852058) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Tue Nov 3 17:37:05 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 3 13:57:46 2009. I strongly recommend a R62/62A/68/68A GOH to be addded to the 2010-14 Capital Program. Replacing the interiors during the program will address it. |
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| (852065) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 17:48:11 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 16:52:44 2009. You are comparing a rapid transit system to commuter rail. Along MNR some stations are actually taken care of by the township in partnership with MNR. For example, New Rochelle is partly subsidized by the town in addition to MNR. I am sure the LIRR has the same type of arrangement but I cannot say that for sure as I do not work for them. Also, let's face it like it or not the communities MNR & LIRR are in are a lot more vocal than those around the subway.I agree with you that NYCT shouldn't be so gritty, but again I rather have train service than clean stations. Yeah there is high unemployment but if your saying to have them clean the system where is that $$ going to come from? If it bothers you so much write your city councilman, writing here is good for getting thoughts but your councilman is the one who can get action. |
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| (852078) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:12:25 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by R42 4787 on Tue Nov 3 17:37:05 2009. Amen!!!!!!That is 100% correct. This MUST be done to restore the R-62 & R-68 IT is a dam shame the way they look today. |
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| (852080) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Tue Nov 3 18:19:05 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:12:25 2009. If these cars get an overhaul it will be a real light overhaul, because it didn't suffer from deferred maintenance like the older equipment did. SMS should do the trick, if you ask me. |
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| (852083) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:24:37 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 17:48:11 2009. Actually I am a civic leader and my councilman and I are close friends. As you know, the City Council has no jurisdiction over the MTA. It is a state agency. Unfortunately my Assemblyman & Senator are not as proactive to address these issues. Why not have city businesses adopt stations? Look at how nicely Reuters takes care of the restrooms at Times Square. By addressing the issues I raised, you will increase ridership. People do not want to see rats, graffiti, peeling paint, filth, etc. They want cleanliness, reliability and safety. When that is given they ride the trains in greater numbers. Today people only ride the trains if they have no other choice. We want to attract those people and others to use mass transit as the best option. Remember in 1983 when they introduced the R-62 on the #4? WHat happened? Ridership went through the roof. |
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| (852085) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:31:51 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Nov 3 13:57:46 2009. In the short term, (My 2 cents only) Skin it with ad's like they do on the shuttle. At least it would look a bit better. |
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| (852087) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:36:14 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:31:51 2009. Excellent idea! I already sent that idea to the MTA and was told the covering can last 6 weeks tops. |
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| (852088) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:38:13 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:36:14 2009. In the short term they be making money off of it. Every 6 weeks they could put a new ad. |
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| (852091) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:39:28 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:38:13 2009. provided someone buys the space. =/ |
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| (852097) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Tue Nov 3 18:49:29 2009, in response to Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 13:13:57 2009. I say if they catch someone carving the steel lets carve their face! |
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| (852102) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:56:20 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:38:13 2009. I think it is a great idea. |
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| (852107) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 19:04:05 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Tue Nov 3 18:49:29 2009. Yes but unfortunately this is a blue state which is filled with bleeding hearts. Remember many people will call this art or freedom of expression. I actually went to an art exibit in Red Hook a few years back and I saw a photograph of a Lavatory mirror with a scratchitti tag!! |
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| (852124) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Tue Nov 3 19:24:09 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 19:04:05 2009. You know there are always debates about graffiti of the 80's being art or vandalism. People will debate this forever. But the scratchiti is just plain barbaric. Its destructiveness is scary in that the savages who do this need tools and acids to perpetrate their crimes. |
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| (852149) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 20:15:34 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:24:37 2009. The adopt a station is a great idea IMHO. If I were you go to speak to your councilman and ask him/her for the right person to speak with at NYCT. I think it is a great idea. There is the rider's council that represents IINM all agencies the link can be found on the MTA website, which is seperate from the ones MNR/LIRR have. They might be able to help too.IMHO if NYCT can reach out to 1 or 2 businesses at each stop to help with station upkeep/repairs/etc it would be great and in exchange NYCT can put a board up that says "this station generously adopted by |
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| (852150) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 20:16:17 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 18:24:37 2009. Civic leader? That sounds interesting |
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| (852173) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Nov 3 20:47:06 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:39:28 2009. Yeah, at least the TS Shuttle, they know there will be people riding it and noticing it, but I dunno about the outer boroughs or like the Lexington line where it will be too crowded to even see the interiors. |
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| (852215) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Tue Nov 3 22:27:33 2009, in response to Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 13:13:57 2009. I rode in 2826 on Friday on the Q, and it had the usual scratchiti, and dents, but for some reason, it didn't look like what I used to see in the R68's! |
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| (852221) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by R42 4787 on Tue Nov 3 22:58:56 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by lrg5784 on Tue Nov 3 18:19:05 2009. I also recommend the following if a R62/62A/68/68A class overhaul is to be included into a 2010-2014 Capital Program:LED display signs Automated annoucements Interior FIND route maps HVAC replacement/upgrade Replacement of Westinghouse Cam/E-Cam propulsion on R62A/68/68A with GE SCM Removal of remaining intermediate cabs on 5-car R62A and 4-car R68 |
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| (852228) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Tue Nov 3 23:23:01 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by R42 4787 on Tue Nov 3 22:58:56 2009. R62s and R68s will not get FIND displays because it is not a technology train. It would cost too much to retrofit them withdisplays and announcements and the wheel revolution system which triggers the announcements. R142/As will most likely be a candidate for receiving FINDs once they make their way to the (7). |
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| (852270) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Mr. MTA on Wed Nov 4 01:15:55 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 14:26:44 2009. Find the crooks and put acid in their eyes! That's the only way they'll learn! =O |
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| (852315) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 04:40:53 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Mr. MTA on Wed Nov 4 01:15:55 2009. Yeah but corporal punishment is not allowed |
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| (852342) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:10:24 2009, in response to Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 13:13:57 2009. It's the R68's where the scratchiti era was discovered and began. |
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| (852344) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:15:27 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 17:48:11 2009. You can tell pretty well which stations along the LIRR the MTA takes care of, and which ones have help from the community on a regular basis....it's like night and day. |
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| (852346) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:17:08 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 20:15:34 2009. I also like that idea. I wouldnot be against even corporate sponsorship of some stations, and would include a few small signs acknowledging such, like they have the "Adopt a Highway" signs every few miles. |
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| (852347) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:18:13 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 04:40:53 2009. Yeah, that's too far, that's like the muslim nations that cut off people's hands for stealing.....this is the US, not some god-forsaken third world country. |
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| (852348) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:18:43 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by JBar387 on Tue Nov 3 18:31:51 2009. Interesting. |
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| (852376) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 4 09:45:34 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 14:19:37 2009. I believe than Singapore-style caning could solve this problem. But it'll never happen. |
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| (852381) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 09:52:56 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Tue Nov 3 19:24:09 2009. It is absolutely not art it is vandalism. If it was art, it would not have morphed into scratchitti. one month agon the DOT cleaned off the graffiti (i.e. linear names with black spray paint) on the stone and concrete pillars of the Manhattan Bridge to celebrate the 100 year anniversery. God only knows the cost since chemicals needed to be used. The graffiti ("Art") reappeared withing two weeks.Last night I rode car 5018 home and "MAP" (Aka Patrick McCormick; look him up on Google, Type in Patrick McCormick MAP graffiti) and read on.... Was scratched into the stainless steel. It appeared that each letter was carved at least 5 or 6 times. This made the "MAP" tag very visible MAP is now in jail again. THat tag could have been there since 1986, 1996 or a month ago. MAP will get out of jail again but his tag will live on in car 5018 and so many others for another 20 years. MAP is 39 years old. Now suppose I carved a curse word or an anti-semetic or racist symbol or word, how long would it last? What would the TA do? |
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| (852382) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Nov 4 09:54:39 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Nov 3 16:01:24 2009. It's a lot easier to close a highway lane for the 2-4 hours it takes to clean (or paint over) the graffiti on the side of a highway than it is to change subway service to do the same. |
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| (852390) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:10:12 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 20:16:17 2009. Here is a MAJOR issue I have. The issue is MAINTENANCE.LEts take the 7 Line, the stations were rehabilitated a few years ago. I do not ride the 7 that often. By the time I rode it again, I noticed the new stations, yet by the time I noticed them they were already destroyed. The Glass block is all carved up etc... Now they are currently rehabilitating the Brighton Line and I understand that the Sea Beach is next. I am sure they will look great when they are finnished. So it took decades to get this work done and millions of dollars, but by the time they are finnished, they will get destroyed in no time do to lask of maintenance. That is a real shame. I think the Subways, buses and MTA bus should all be under the control of the Mayor & Citycouncil this way there is accountability. |
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| (852395) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:16:38 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Nov 3 20:47:06 2009. I honestly wonder what would happen if I carved a curse word into the interior? |
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| (852398) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:36:06 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by R42 4787 on Tue Nov 3 22:58:56 2009. Yes Yes Yes!What color should the end bonnets be painted? |
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| (852399) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:39:40 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Nov 4 09:45:34 2009. agreed |
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| (852400) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:40:37 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Nov 4 09:54:39 2009. But the track wall graffiti has been there for decades now. Do it late nights or on the weekends. |
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| (852401) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by shadyelstation on Wed Nov 4 10:43:18 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by arnine on Tue Nov 3 20:15:34 2009. IAWTP |
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| (852413) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 11:15:20 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:15:27 2009. Yup same on MNR |
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| (852414) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 11:17:24 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Nov 4 08:17:08 2009. Yup that is what I meant too. But I think community businesses would be helped better but corporations are ok too |
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| (852418) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 4 11:29:09 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:16:38 2009. What, like 'fuck' or such? Nothing new... |
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| (852422) | |
Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 11:32:56 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 10:10:12 2009. Ha! That will never happen, nor should it. If the mayor wants accountability well he can threaten to cut off subsidy $$.The MTA yescan do a better job. But, they can only do what they can and need to provide service. Honestly if it bothers you so much do something about it or justdon't use the system. |
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Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Nov 4 11:33:47 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 4 11:29:09 2009. I have seen curse words before on the train |
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Re: Pristine R-68 #2884 |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 4 12:02:39 2009, in response to Re: Pristine R-68 #2884, posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 4 11:29:09 2009. Yes or maybe an anti-semitic or racist word. |
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