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| (833837) | |
Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009 Last night at around 7:45pm all T/O were ordered by the RCC to put there trains into By-Pass do to a Full line CBTC failure happen on line. I don't know when CBTC will be back up. If I see it running later I will post it on Wednesday. |
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| (833844) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by terrapin station on Tue Sep 15 08:31:00 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. your post is not clear - was this necessitated by a failure or was this only a test? |
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| (833848) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 09:14:26 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. T/O were ordered by the RCC to put there trains into By-Pass do to a Full line CBTC failure happen on lineSeems clear enough to me tamar that it was a failure... |
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| (833854) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:28:29 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 09:14:26 2009. I thought I put that in Railman, but then again I am only a pore little T/O who does not make things clear. |
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| (833857) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Tue Sep 15 09:30:23 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:28:29 2009. LMAO! |
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| (833859) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:32:41 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by terrapin station on Tue Sep 15 08:31:00 2009. I guess I have to put in an simple terms.CBTC broken. CBTC no good. CBTC turned off. CBTC needs to be fixed. CBTC off untill then. CBTC Bye Bye for now. |
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| (833865) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 09:53:01 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:32:41 2009. What was that Robert??Maybe you need to be a bit more clear..... |
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| (833911) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by rr4567 on Tue Sep 15 12:58:50 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:32:41 2009. I lol'd @ this post. |
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| (833912) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by rr4567 on Tue Sep 15 12:59:24 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:28:29 2009. XD |
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| (833914) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Tue Sep 15 13:05:37 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. Sunday night when I was working on the 3 going past Penn into Junius I saw the signals still normal and not in CBTC mode, usually at 11pm that whole line is blinking green signals far as the eye can see. |
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| (833942) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Bee Flexible #823 on Tue Sep 15 14:14:24 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. I think OPTO and CBTC are a complete failure and should not be used in the NYCT system. They are a waste of money and time. Why upgrade to a system that will never work? |
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| (833949) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by f179dj on Tue Sep 15 14:29:28 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Bee Flexible #823 on Tue Sep 15 14:14:24 2009. One of the seven steps to stagnation. |
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| (833951) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Sep 15 14:31:58 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by ClearAspect on Tue Sep 15 13:05:37 2009. Haha, I used to also look down upon the (L) line when I would pass through on my late-night (4) trip to New Lots.And I would think to myself that someday I'll work the (L) as a C/R, and I did. |
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| (833952) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Sep 15 14:34:22 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. Did the radio announcement specifically say it was a CBTC failure? There was supposed to be an upcoming G/O to put CBTC in Bypass mode to allow for the Sperry to visit. |
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| (833961) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 15:12:03 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Bee Flexible #823 on Tue Sep 15 14:14:24 2009. Sure. Total wast of money to reduce crew size by half and implement semi-automatic operation like modern systems in most of the world. I suppose we should go back to gas lights and horses, because progress is a waste... |
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| (833962) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 15:13:45 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Bee Flexible #823 on Tue Sep 15 14:14:24 2009. how is it that technology which works on other DC/3rd rail powered subways can't work in NYC? And how is it that OPTO can't be applied when it has been proven for decades in many other cities? |
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| (833973) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:13:00 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 15:12:03 2009. Wrong most systems currently running automatic trains, etc are either built that way or very small. A system our size should not be auto. IMHO. Also, having a 2nd person is vital for safety. The emergency boxes can fail when humans can walk to the conductor in the middle. |
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| (833974) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:14:09 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 15:13:45 2009. Other cities for 1 do not have as big and ancient system like ours. 2 most have been built that way. 3. For safety OPTO is crap. |
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| (833975) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Tue Sep 15 16:18:36 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:14:09 2009. 1. London? Paris?2. London? Paris? 3. London? Paris? |
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| (833976) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:22:21 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 15:13:45 2009. how is it that technology which works on other DC/3rd rail powered subways can't work in NYC?Ask The ones who was here before the new guys came in they should know the answer. And how is it that OPTO can't be applied when it has been proven for decades in many other cities? OPTO can work in certain times here it does... As of now the timetables and schedules that are in place cannot work with the way OPTO is set up thats why. Nothing is stopping the MTA from running 4 or 5 car Units as OPTO, they just know better that it cant work during certain times thats why. |
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| (833977) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:23:21 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Michael Wares on Tue Sep 15 16:18:36 2009. Was those cities systems built for that or modified after a period? |
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| (833978) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Sep 15 16:24:37 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:13:00 2009. He is not wrong.The other large old systems are becoming automated quicker than we are. Prettymuch everywhere is OPTO too. No reason both wouldnt work here. |
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| (833979) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Sep 15 16:26:55 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:23:21 2009. Both are systems older than ours, fully OPTO, and are being modified for ATO bit by bit. |
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| (833980) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:30:25 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by R30A on Tue Sep 15 16:26:55 2009. Which makes it more of a joke they could have done this years ago i mean the 80's..Oh well .. |
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| (833984) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:42:00 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Michael Wares on Tue Sep 15 16:18:36 2009. Yes, but still maybe the technology can make it work, doubtful but maybe. Still for safety 2 people need to be on the train. Again, my opinion only. |
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| (833985) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:42:54 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:23:21 2009. Good question. Probably over a period, and not sure who is bigger us or them. |
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| (833986) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:43:50 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:30:25 2009. It should not be done here IMHO, as we need 2 folks on trains for safety. |
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| (833987) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:45:04 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 16:22:21 2009. IMHO OPTO is wrong for any train longer than 4 cars. To me it would be a safety concern. |
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| (833990) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 16:51:20 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:45:04 2009. so don't even think about ever riding BART or WMATA because both are OPTO/ATO and BART runs 10 car trains--that's 720' so longer than even the 11 car E's of the 50's. |
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| (833993) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:58:26 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by R30A on Tue Sep 15 16:24:37 2009. Well, IMHO it just isn't safe here to do it. Honestly, it should not be done from the sfaety viewpoint. OPTO shouldn't be done on trains longer than 4 cars. |
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| (833996) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 17:03:04 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 16:51:20 2009. When i was in San Fran two years ago i rode BART.Didnt bother me one bit. |
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| (833997) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Tue Sep 15 17:04:39 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 15:12:03 2009. No Hank just rip out the tracks in the Steinway tube and let people walk to Queens. |
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| (833999) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 17:08:31 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:43:50 2009. No we don't. We need two folks on the train for the jobs program the city runs. |
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| (834001) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue Sep 15 17:10:55 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 17:08:31 2009. As of 1710 hrs today CBTC is still shut down... |
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| (834008) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:17:30 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 16:51:20 2009. I have rode on both several times. I feel safe on them. I used to live in SF & SJ and took BART all the time. But, keep in mind that both systems were built with OPTO & ATO. The safety I am mostly referring to is personal safety. |
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| (834010) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:19:59 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 17:08:31 2009. Wrong. We need 2 folks more for personal safety. |
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| (834011) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 17:20:43 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:17:30 2009. As in, your mind is still stuck on the New York Subway circa 1983. Just like Hollywood. |
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| (834012) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:20:58 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:58:26 2009. Well, IMHO it just isn't safe here to do it.Why? Specifically. What is it about the NYCT system that makes it any different from London, Paris, Berlin, Philadelphia, or any of the other legacy systems that have upgraded to OPTO? And before someone brings it up the merges and so on are a non-issue because the C/R is of no assistance in sorting through the junctions. Honestly, it should not be done from the sfaety viewpoint. What is any less safe with having a T/O operate the doors? At many stations the C/R is already viewing the platform through a closed circuit TV system. Where is the problem with simply having the T/O view those same TVs and push the button? I'd argue that we don't even need anyone pressing a button to close the doors. The RUBIN ZPTO system in Nuremburg incorporates an automatic door closing system which has been found to be superior to the operator closed doors on the city's other two lines. The U3, the U-bahn line which uses the RUBIN system, also merges and diverges from the city's U2 subway line, which was built in the 1950s and uses conventional OPTO cars without an ATC system. Thus the ZPTO DT3s on the U3 are operating in the same traffic as the operator driven DT1s and DT2s on the U2, with the U2 operators obeying the same signal system they've had since the line opened in the 1950s, and that signal system is functionally the same as NYCT's system. OPTO shouldn't be done on trains longer than 4 cars. Why? DC runs 600 foot long OPTO trains. Philadelphia has the capability to operate nearly 540 foot long OPTO trains, without any sort of CBTC, ATO, or other cab signalling system. The Widecab arrangement is a severe problem when it comes to station dwell times, but as the Market Frankford line readily demonstrates the CCTV system can easily have the monitors placed in the cab to eliminate the walk across the platform. |
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| (834013) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:22:29 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:19:59 2009. I am wrong to have said wrong. It is my opinion that we need 2 people for personal safety. |
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| (834018) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:27:52 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 15 17:20:43 2009. Nope. Personal safety is more than just crime. Medical issues happen to. A few weeks ago I was coming into work on an R160 E train and a someone wanted to get directions and his the intercom button and it did not work. Yes, he shouldn't be using the emergency intercom for directions, but what if it happened to be an emergency? Easier to get help by walking to closet train crew member no more than 5 cars away which is better than 10! |
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| (834019) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by rr4567 on Tue Sep 15 17:27:55 2009, in response to Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 08:05:07 2009. CBTC translates into FAIL |
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| (834020) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:28:27 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 16:42:00 2009. Why? In many cases the C/R is already looking at a monitor to close the doors. Why can't a T/O look at that same monitor relocated 300 feet down the tracks? It'd be nice if they'd designed the new cars to be truly up to date, with a sensor along the leading edge of the door to detect an obstruction, but NYCT remains stalwartly half a generation behind. In an emergency what advantage do a C/R and T/O have in controlling a crowd over a T/O alone when only one can use the PA at any given time? |
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| (834021) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:28:51 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:20:58 2009. Already responded |
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| (834022) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:31:53 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:28:51 2009. Yes, you responded, but you managed to say absolutely nothing. Lets have some specific reasons for your aversion to OPTO. It has been demonstrated that OPTO is done with train lengths and route combinations equal in length and complexity to NYCT, so the various excuses offered as to why OPTO will not work must be false. Thus why do you cling to this idea that NYCT represents some sort of special case when it comes to transit operations? |
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| (834023) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by rr4567 on Tue Sep 15 17:33:19 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:31:53 2009. 1) Eight Million people2) that will make people lose jobs |
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| (834024) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:35:07 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:28:27 2009. If one is having a medical emergency in say car 10, well it is faster to get to the c/r than the t/o. Yes, the NTT's have emergency intercoms but as I explained to another poster they fail saw it happen myself. You can say some other systems have the OPTO and technology in use but some were designed that way from the getgo or they were smaller. Now, I am not saying the technology or capability is not there. It is I know that. But, for personal safety which includes crimes, medical issues, fires, etc it is better to have 2 people. On trains 4 cars running OPTO IMHO it is fine. Besides, I am just expressing my opinion. The MTA will do as they deem doable regardless of how I feel. |
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| (834025) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:37:34 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by WillD on Tue Sep 15 17:31:53 2009. I already explained why I feel an aversion to OPTO is several posts, either you do not understand it or you have not read all of it yet. I did say quite a few things. But again, it is my opinion that it should not happen on anything longer than 4 cars but that is my opinion. What opinion I express will not have a damm bearing on what the MTA does. |
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| (834027) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 15 17:41:46 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Jackson park B Train on Tue Sep 15 15:13:45 2009. how is it that technology which works on other DC/3rd rail powered subways can't work in NYC?The CBTC implementation chosen by NYCT was never installed on any other system and never will be. There are two key requirements with CBTC. First, the train has to have an independent way of knowing its position. Second, there has to be a Digital Communication System (DCS) between the train and the control system. Both systems chosen by NYCT were never tried in any previous CBTC system. The DCS is no longer manufactured and therefore is not likely to be used in any future system. |
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| (834029) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by arnine on Tue Sep 15 17:48:05 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Sep 15 17:41:46 2009. This reminds me of when MUNI in SF tried & finally did implement ATO, and what a crazy start this was. OMG, it was faster to walk. |
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| (834030) | |
Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 15 17:51:46 2009, in response to Re: Full CBTC Shut Down Last Night, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Sep 15 09:32:41 2009. Obviously he didn't read the entire thread. :) |
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