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| Age of the Els (83052) | |
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| (83052) | |
Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 7 19:23:13 2005 The following was reproduced by NRHS New York Chapter some years ago.MANHATTAN RAILWAY COMPANY CHRONOLOGY - Greenwich St. & Ninth Ave. Line July 1, 1868 - A section of single track road in Greenwich St. from Battery Place to Cortland St. accepted by Commissioners. 1869-1870 - Completed along Greenwich St. and 9th Ave. to 30th St. Operated and shut down. April 20, 1871 - Operation by steam dummy and three passenger cars commenced, Dey St. and 29th St. being only stations. May 6, 1872 to May 25, 1874 - 8 intermediate stations opened. Nov. 6, 1875 - Single track on Ninth Ave., 34th St. to 42nd St. January 18, 1876 - Single track on Ninth Ave., 42nd St. to 61st St. April 5, 1877 - Double track extension from Greenwich St. and Battery Place to South Ferry. Sept. 1877 - Double track constructed on east side of Ninth Ave. June 2, 1878 - Double track road opened to 61st St. June 9, 1879 - Double track road opened to 83rd St. May 2, 1880 - New substituted structure on Ninth Ave. and on Greenwich St. completed for operation by steam engines. February 18, 1903 - Operation by electric power commenced. March 1, 1918 - Regular operation at 162nd St. and Eighth Ave. over Harlem River Bridge commenced. |
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| (83239) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 8 15:57:52 2005, in response to Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 7 19:23:13 2005. After reading my previous post, I noticed that there was no listing for the section of line from 30th St. to 34th St.. I checked the original, and one of the 8 "intermediate" stations was 34th St., which opened on July 30th, 1873.Also, the history of the line north of 83rd St. was included in the Sixth Ave. part of the chronology, which I will post in due course. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 15 15:52:57 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 8 15:57:52 2005. The folowing was reproduced from ORGANIZATION Franchises - Contracts July 1, 1918, by NRHS New York Chapter.MANHATTAN RAILWAY COMPANY CHRONOLOGY - Sixth Avenue Line April 19, 1876 - Foundation work commenced at 42nd St. and Sixth Ave.. June 5, 1878 - Work completed from Morris St. to 58th St.. July 8, 1878 - Work on 53rd St. connection commenced. January 9, 1879 - First train to Eighth Ave. and 53rd St. run. February 25, 1879 - 53rd St. connection opened to public. June 7, 1879 - First train run to 104th St. and Ninth Ave.. September 17, 1879 - First train run to 125th St. and Eighth Ave.. September 27, 1879 - First train run to 135th St. and Eighth Ave.. December 1, 1879 - First train run to 155th St. and Eighth Ave.. November 2, 1902 - Trains operated by electricity over Sixth Ave. line. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by UWS Greg on Tue May 17 16:34:12 2005, in response to Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 7 19:23:13 2005. I wonder from your research if you've discovered the oldest part of the existing NYC el system still in use. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Wed May 18 18:14:14 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by UWS Greg on Tue May 17 16:34:12 2005. The things that I am posting all relate to Manhattan Railway lines which have all been removed. I have nothing comparable for BRT lines, which is probably where the oldest remaining section is. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 18 23:16:09 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by UWS Greg on Tue May 17 16:34:12 2005. If i'm not mistaken, the oldest original piece of el still in use is on the J line between Alabama Ave and Crescent Street. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Thu May 19 00:00:10 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 18 23:16:09 2005. and how old is that? |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by monorail on Thu May 19 01:59:00 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Thu May 19 00:00:10 2005. 1888 or somewhere near that |
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| (86557) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu May 19 03:09:46 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 18 23:16:09 2005. The section from Van Siclen to Pennsylvania Ave goes back to 1885. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Thu May 19 21:39:01 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 18 23:16:09 2005. Perhaps if everyone who had good information posted it here, it would be possible to develop a list of when all lines were originally built, including those which have since closed. I would also add that any line which was expanded or rebuilt on the same route, should be listed by when it was first opened IMHO. Larry, what do you have? |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 21:54:43 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Thu May 19 21:39:01 2005. Lexington Avenue EL- Opening DatesMay 14, 1985 - Service begins between Washington and York Streets and Broadway-Gates Avenue. September 5, 1885 - Extended to Alabama Avenue December 4, 1885 - Extended to Van Siclen Avenue May 29, 1893 - Extended to Cypress Hill Terminal (Crescent Street-Jamaica Avenue). Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu May 19 22:03:10 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 21:54:43 2005. That's 1885, not 1985! |
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| (86786) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 22:37:54 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 21:54:43 2005. Re: Age of the ElsPosted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 21:54:43 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Thu May 19 21:39:01 2005. Thank you for catching that. Here's the corrected text. Lexington Avenue EL- Opening Dates May 14, 1885 - Service begins between Washington and York Streets and Broadway-Gates Avenue. September 5, 1885 - Extended to Alabama Avenue December 4, 1885 - Extended to Van Siclen Avenue May 29, 1893 - Extended to Cypress Hill Terminal (Crescent Street-Jamaica Avenue). Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (86790) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu May 19 22:44:10 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 22:37:54 2005. You're welcome. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri May 20 07:44:37 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Thu May 19 21:39:01 2005. I would also add that any line which was expanded or rebuilt on the same route, should be listed by when it was first opened IMHOWell techinically, the street that has an el the longest would be Broadway and Fulton from Gates Ave to Alabama Ave, as the el was built there and opened September 1885, and from Alabama to Van Sicklen in December, 1885. However, the el was rebuilt from Gates to Alabama by the 1910's, and it's not the same el. The original 1885 el is still operating between Alabama and Van Sicklen. |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by monorail on Fri May 20 12:22:49 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri May 20 07:44:37 2005. I'm very sure the columns have been replaced |
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| (87057) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri May 20 13:18:50 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by monorail on Fri May 20 12:22:49 2005. Perhaps, but it definetely wasn't rebuilt to the extend that the rest of the Broadway El was rebuilt when that portion was rebuilt to dual contracts standards. |
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| (87074) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri May 20 14:13:36 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri May 20 13:18:50 2005. AFAIK that was the lone segment that prevented the Triplexes from operating on the Jamaica line. Their axle load weight was well in excess of what that elevated portion could support. |
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| (87079) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri May 20 14:24:56 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by monorail on Fri May 20 12:22:49 2005. The columns were replaced, except at parts of the Crescent St. curve and between Van Siclen and Pennsylvania Ave. where there are still lattice columns. |
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| (90321) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 28 19:16:05 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu May 19 22:37:54 2005. Larry:Taking a page from your Tuscorora Almanac, I tried setting up a format to describe the opening of the early lines (el and surface). Here is a sample for your review: City: Brooklyn, N.Y. Company: Brooklyn Elevated Railroad. Line: Old Main - Lexington Ave. - Broadway Date: May 14, 1885 - Line opened. Terminal Points: Fulton Ferry and Broadway/Gates Ave. Intermediate Route: York St., Hudson Ave., Park Ave., Grand Ave., Lexington Ave., Broadway Right-of-Way/Traction: Double track on elevated structure, steam operated Subsequent Events: September 5, 1885 - Extended from Broadway and Gates to Fulton St. and Alabama Ave. via Broadway and Fulton St. December 4, 1885 - Extended from Fulton and Alabama to Fulton St. and Van Sicklen Ave. Unknown Day/Month, 1891 - Service discontinued from Hudson and Park Aves to Myrtle and Grand Aves. May 29, 1893 - Extended from Fulton and Van Sicklen to Crescent St. and Jamaica Ave. (Cypress Hills). Unknown Day/Month, 1899 - Line east of Myrtle and Grand Aves. electrified. October 13, 1950 - Line from Myrtle And Grand Aves. to Broadway and Lexington Ave closed. For further history of line from Fulton Ferry to Hudson and Park Aves. see Fifth Avenue Line; for further history of line from Broadway and Gates Ave. to Cypress Hills, see Broadway Line. City: Brooklyn, N.Y. and Queens, N.Y.C. Company: Union Elevated Railroad. Line: Broadway - Jamaica Date: Unknown Day/Month, 1888 - Line opened. Terminal Points: Broadway/Gates Ave and Broadway and Driggs Ave. Right-of-Way/Traction: Double track on elevated structure, steam operated. Subsequent Events: Unknown Day/Month, 1889 - Extended from Broadway and Driggs to Broadway Ferry. Unknown Day/Month, 1898-1900 - Line electrified. July 17, 1898 - Branch opened from Fulton and Chestnut Sts. to Long Island Rail Road trackage on Atlantic Ave. - Service discontinued September 3, 1917. May 20, 1903 - Elevated to surface ramp opened at Cypress Hills - Elevated trains operated on surface to Jamaica from May 30, 1903 to December 8, 1903 May 30, 1908 - Branch opened from Broadway and Marcy Ave. over Williamsburg Bridge to Delancey St. subway station in Manhattan. Unknown Day/Month, 1916 - Service discontinued between Broadway Ferry and Marcy Ave. - structure removed in 1940. January 17, 1916 - Completion of extensive structure rebuilding and addition of third track - Marcy Ave. to Myrtle Ave. December 21, 1916 - Completion of extensive structure rebuilding and addition of third track - Myrtle Ave. to Broadway Junction. Structure also rebuilt from Broadway Jct. to Pennsylvania Ave. Pennsylvania to Van Sicklen still original structure) Unknown Day/Month, 1915-16 - Double track connection added between Broadway line and Myrtle Ave. line. 1916 - Broadway Junction (Manhattan Junction) rebuilt with revised connections to Fulton St. and Canarsie lines. May 28, 1917 - Extended from Cypress Hills to 111tth St. via Jamaica Ave; double track on elevated structure. July 3, 1918 - Extended from 111th St. to 168th St. Jamaica. September 10, 1977 - Line closed from Queens Boulevard to 168th St. April 13, 1985 - Line closed from 121st St. to Queens Blvd. December 11, 1988 - Line extended from 121st St. to Archer Ave. subway. Paul F. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat May 28 21:34:52 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 28 19:16:05 2005. Paul: Very nice and very detailed. Its good to see that you included the recent history from 1977 to 1988. All too often "Recent History" gets left out.I might be able to help out with a few of the unknown dates. The portion of the original line on Park Avenue and Grand Avenue was taken out of service on Decemebr 9, 1889 and formally abandoned on December 30, 1890. It was never electrified and was only six years old. (J Cunningham-Rapid Transit in Brooklyn). The portion of the original line between the old Fulton Ferry and Myrtle Avenue which ran on York Street and Hudson Avenue was closed on April 10, 1904 and offcially abandoned on August 31, 1904. It also was never electrified.(J Cunningham) The Broadway El was opened between Driggs Avenue and Gates Avenue on June 25, 1888 it was extended west to the Broadway Ferry on July 14, 1888. The spur line to the ferry was closed on July 2, 1916 although the tracks continued to be used for storage until 1942. (When they were probably torn down so that the scrap metal could be used in the war effort.)(Edward Watson/Arthur Lonto NYD Bulletin June 1997) I also like the way that you break up the chronology each time there was a change in corporate ownership. All too often chronolgists make up two separate lists and you constantly have to keep cross referencing between the two. The history of the Brooklyn Els is very detailed and can be qutie confusing when one reads about it. Its good to see someone like yourself present the material in a clear and easy to understand format. I have a great deal of information on the Brooklyn Els. If I can be of any assistance e-mail at irtredbirdr33@yahoo.com. Keep up the good work, Larry, Redbirdr33 |
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Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Sat May 28 21:46:19 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by monorail on Thu May 19 01:59:00 2005. Pretty darned old. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Sat May 28 21:53:23 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by EMSR7000 on Sat May 28 19:16:05 2005. April 22, 2000 - Hudson-Bergen opens, but this is a trolley line so maybe this shouldn't count.October 21, 2002 - Airtrain Newark opens (not in NYC, but pretty close). This monorail line runs on stilts. December 17, 2003 - Airtrain JFK opens. Majority of the new line is elevated. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat May 28 22:18:07 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat May 28 21:34:52 2005. Larry, although I'd always heard that no part of the Old Main Line was ever electrified, Fischler has a photo of the part that survived until 1904 next to the Brooklyn Bridge that clearly shows what appears to be third rail on both tracks. |
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| (90404) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat May 28 23:04:23 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by SLRT on Sat May 28 22:18:07 2005. Which of Fischer's books did you see the picture in. I have The Subway and the City." Was it Uptown/Downtown?There is a 1904 picture of the Old Main Line right next to the Brooklyn Bridge which shows "something" that looks like a third rail next to both running tracks. This picture is in "The Track of New York No 2" by Alan Kahn and Paul May. Although all the mainline Brooklyn els had electrified by July 1900 there were not enough electric mu trains to provide all the service so steam powered trains continued to operate. Its possible that third rail was installed on that portion of the "Old Main LIne" but that it was never energized. Both Joe Cunningham and Joe Brennan refer to this as the last elevated steam operation. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Sat May 28 23:49:59 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat May 28 23:04:23 2005. Hello Larry. What might be seen in that photo was the trackside lay-down of 3rd rail stock long sections...possibly with intent to be installed on 3rd rail chairs at an imminent later date. However, with impending planned re-routings and the dangerous 90 degree grade (on the Myrtle EL) crossing elimination proposed by the BRT (for the Hudson ST / 5th Ave El Line crossing at Myrtle EL over to Park Avenue EL further east...and the Lex El crossing Myrtle further north at Grand Ave...to the Park Avenue El further east---both crossing 90 degrees AT GRADE over Myrtle EL....probably with the planned trackage revisions in mind, and lack of patronge on the Park Ave El (which ended at a Ferry NEXT TO, AND BELOW the Bklyn Bridge) due to thru recent direct service OVER the Bridge to Manhattan City Hall a few years earlier ---- suspended the possible 3rd rail electrification "IF planned" project of the Park Ave Steam El Line. The trackside appearing, and possibly stored 3rd rail and any other useful materials would be re-salvaged prior to scrapping the El itself. This has been a controversy for the past 35 or more years that I have followed it. The explanation I give above is solely a "logistic" recitation. regards - Joe Webmaster NYC Transit Modelers Forum Group |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun May 29 00:12:25 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Sat May 28 23:49:59 2005. Thanks for the information Joe. Thats more or less the conclusion that I came to.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 29 19:29:09 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat May 28 21:34:52 2005. Larry:I'm going to try writing up the Brooklyn lines one by one, but first I have to finish posting the Manhattan Railway data I have. By the way, do you know if Cunningham's Rapid Transit in Brooklyn is still available? I've never seen it and it sounds like a good base - all I have right now is Kahn/May and Greller/Watson. Sorry I misspelled Tuscarora. Paul |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 20:47:06 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 29 19:29:09 2005. Paul,In Larry's absence I will tell you that the Cunningham book is very hard to find. It has been out of print for years. It certainly would be a candidate for reprinting. Like the Kahn/May book it is a part 2 of a 3 part series... Joseph Cunningham and Leonard O.Dehart A History Of the New York City Subway System Part 1 The Manhattan Els and the IRT Part 2 Rapid Transit in Brooklyn Part 3 The Independent System and City Ownership I'm lucky enough to have Parts 2 & 3, but I have never even seen Part 1. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun May 29 20:54:39 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 20:47:06 2005. I'm lucky enough to have Parts 2 & 3, but I have never even seen Part 1.All three parts were reprinted as a single volume in 1993. |
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| (90953) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by 7 to Main St on Sun May 29 20:56:20 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 20:47:06 2005. How good is this book? Does it have pictures aswell? |
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| (91082) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 22:53:20 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by BMTLines on Sun May 29 20:54:39 2005. "All three parts were reprinted as a single volume in 1993."The reprint seems to be harder to find than the originals. |
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| (91086) | |
Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 23:00:14 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by 7 to Main St on Sun May 29 20:56:20 2005. There are good pictures, but they are rather small.I found the text of these books very interesting and informative. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by 7 to Main St on Sun May 29 23:01:33 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 23:00:14 2005. As long as theres photos, I should be fine(scanner can enlarge the photos). Who has this book? |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Mon May 30 10:24:12 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 20:47:06 2005. Thanks for the info Karl. I will try to find it on inter-library loan. |
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| (91577) | |
Re: Age of the Els |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Mon May 30 16:44:05 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els, posted by EMSR7000 on Sun May 15 15:52:57 2005. The folowing was reproduced by NRHS New York Chapter from ORGANIZATION Franchises - Contracts July 1, 1918.MANHATTAN RAILWAY COMPANY CHRONOLOGY - Third Avenue Line November 1, 1877 - Construction of foundations commenced at Whitehall Street and Hanover Square. August 26, 1878 - Road completed, South Ferry to 42nd Street. September 16, 1878 - Road completed, 42nd Street to 67th Street. December 9, 1878 - Road completed, 67th Street to 79th Street. December 30, 1878 - Road completed, 79th Street to 129th Street, and road opened. April 15, 1879 - Through night trains from Battery to Harlem. March 24, 1902 - Operated by trains propelled by electricity from 129th Street to South Ferry. 34th Street Branch February, 1879 - Construction work commenced. February, 1880 - Track work completed. July 1, 1880 - Opened to the public. 42nd Street Branch December, 1877 - Construction work commenced. August 12, 1878 - Opened to public for travel. (Question - Was the branch opened before the main line?) City Hall Branch June, 1878 - Construction work commenced. March 17, 1879 - Opened for travel. March 27, 1879 - Closed by Railroad Commissioners. March 1, 1880 - Opened under order of Railroad Commissioners. Operated by steam engines. Second Avenue Line February 24, 1879 - Construction work commenced at Division and Allen Streets. March 1, 1880 - First train to 65th Street. August 16, 1880 - First train to 127th Street. December 29, 1901 - Trains operated by electricity from South Ferry to 129th Street. Suburban Rapid Transit Company June 11, 1878 - Construction work commenced on 129th Street branch from Second Avenue to Third Avenue. May 30, 1879 - Branch completed. December, 1885 - Foundation work commenced. May 17, 1886 - Bridge over Harlem River opened. 1888 - Road extended to 170th Street. 1889 - Connection at 129th Street, Third Avenue to Second Avenue opened. (Question- Was the branch unused for ten years?) July 20, 1891 - Line opened to 177th Street. June 30, 1901 - Operated from 177th Street to Pelham Parkway by electric current. |
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Re: Age of the Els(Corrected) |
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Posted by EMSR7000 on Wed Sep 14 10:32:59 2005, in response to Re: Age of the Els(Corrected), posted by Karl B on Sun May 29 20:47:06 2005. I was able to borrow a copy of the 1993 edition (all three parts) from my local library who obtained it thru the Northeast Massachusetts Regional Library System.This particular copy came from the Library of Congress, has been rebound, and has the call letters: TF847 .N5 C78 1993 Supposedly Columbia Univ. also has a copy, as well as a library in California, and New York Public Library has it on microfilm. Anyone who wishes to borrow a copy should have their local library request it through the appropriate regional system. It is full of information and well worth reading. |
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