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| Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks (825482) | |
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| (825841) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:26:36 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:18:53 2009. why would you want to embarrass your employer? you're not afraid of retaliation/discipline? |
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| (825843) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:27:10 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:23:55 2009. waste of time. |
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| (825844) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 15:27:37 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:25:52 2009. Perhaps I should trademark the remaining letters of the English alphabet - then no-one will be able to write any more :) |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (825845) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:29:45 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:26:13 2009. Sorry I believe you are wrong the trademark state the color. If you were right, which I doubt then part of unicode is trademarked by MTA also a ton of other stuff too. It is common to see colorless bullets with letters & numbers in them. If you are right please post a link to that law. |
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| (825846) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:30:42 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:27:10 2009. so then why do you make them? try to be more careful. most of the rest of us manage to avoid them most of the time. |
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| (825847) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:32:07 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:30:42 2009. becuase my mouse button got stuck. it was an accident. |
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| (825848) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:33:32 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:26:36 2009. You think I used my real name in a news tip? How dumb do you think I am? Plus, my happening to disagree with their action would not legally allow them to retaliate and if they happen to do so, well let me put it this way, I say watch out for another fare hike. Seriously, though I am not worried as if they do something I will just give them more bad press. |
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| (825849) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:35:08 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 15:27:37 2009. True very true. I think I will trademark numbers too. |
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| (825851) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:38:27 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:29:45 2009. the patend office wouldn't let USC have three-pete. it's the same thing, something that is within a cut off of simliarity with the orginal. |
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| (825853) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:40:12 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:32:07 2009. sheesh. so then apologize and move on with your life. |
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| (825854) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:41:17 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:33:32 2009. No, I'm referring to the fact that you've posted here that you are an MNCR employee and your bosses or co-workers, should they read this forum, can probably identify you. |
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| (825856) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:41:41 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:38:27 2009. That is different that is a word or phrase. But these bullets are different. Again, if you are right then post a link to the law. BMTLines has proven that the trademark describes the bullets in question to include color and posted the link. You referring to something different is not proof. POST A LINK. |
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| (825863) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:47:06 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:41:17 2009. Well, that is a good point but I pretty much am not that worried, honetsly they legally cannot do much to me. I have not done anything like give company secrets or other type of info that they can say anything about. My expressing my views to a news agency on their aggressive tactics on taking legal action against those in other cities using bullets for their transit agency is not grounds for them to discipline me, and if they do well then I have a pretty good lawyer to get them with. |
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| (825865) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 15:50:51 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Aug 26 09:09:27 2009. How can the phrase "poetry in motion" which is a common expression in general use for years and possibly centuries and therefore in public domain, be copyright? |
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| (825867) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 16:01:45 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 15:38:27 2009. "three-peat" is a unique phrase. OTOH you can't get any more generic than a letter inside a circle - if that were the case then any use of the letter "M" would be precluded since it would violate McDonald's trademark. Only the unique style is protected. |
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| (825868) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:08:18 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:35:08 2009. your getting trademark connfused with copyright. |
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| (825871) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:17:18 2009, in response to NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by BMTLines on Tue Aug 25 19:15:27 2009. Pretty soon we can all stop worrying about the copyright at least on photos of the trains since the NTTs cannot display the "copyrighted" bullet and color combination on the exterior signs. |
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| (825876) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:19:21 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:08:18 2009. Does not matter. MTA only copyrighted the bullet with letter and color. You have yet on the other hand posted any link to confirm that you are right. |
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| (825878) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:20:29 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 15:50:51 2009. It can't be. That's why it's been trademarked instead. |
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| (825879) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:21:05 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:17:18 2009. Just because the NTT's cannot display the bullets does not mean MTA will either give up the copyright or stop going after people they deem have violated their copyrights even if the person didn't |
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| (825881) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:21:48 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:19:21 2009. no, they didn't copyright it. |
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| (825882) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:22:42 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:21:48 2009. Sorry trademarked it has been a long day |
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| (825884) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:24:16 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:17:18 2009. what copyrights? |
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| (825885) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:24:29 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:21:05 2009. no copyrights are at issue here |
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| (825888) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:26:38 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:41:41 2009. techicly, any mark or symbol that the MTA uses to conduct business is a trade mark. the markes listed earlier are Regesitered marks, which would recive the little cirlce with the R inside. the MTA can claim unresitered servicemark on all the others, which are protected untill after 5 years of disuse. If the MTA did away with the N and it stayed gone, then the trademark would be invaild in 5 years.what the MTA is trying to stop is genericaziton, which would remove thier right to hold it as a trademark. Xeronx, Dumster, asprin and band-aid are or were all trademarked brand names, but have become generic trough lack of trademark enforcement. Xerox has bought ads that say "you cannot 'xerox' a document, but you can copy it on a Xerox Brand copying machine." Adobe doesn't like it when we say "photoshoped", "modified by Adobe® Photoshop® software" protects thier trade marks. |
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| (825889) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:27:38 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:20:29 2009. Considering the phrase's history, it shouldn't be able to be trademarked either. |
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| (825890) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:29:18 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:17:18 2009. as long as they use the logos on public documentation (signs, maps, FINDs), it is a service mark and protected. |
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| (825891) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:34:32 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:21:05 2009. But as in the case of the photog the MTA went after for selling his photos of trains displaying the bullet with the route designation in it, photos of trains incapable of displaying a copyrighted or trademarked symbol are also incapable of violating such copyright or trademark thus the MTA would have no grounds for even attempting any legal action. |
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| (825894) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:38:37 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:26:38 2009. Yes they trademarked the bullets, but they trademarked it with the specific colors. Again, they cannot and have not trademarked the letter regardless of color. So again if you are right, then again POST A LINK or PUT UP OR SHUT UP! You keep dancing around posting a link and repeating yourself which does not make you right actually if anything your proving that your wrong. Oh and by the way if they were trying to stop genericazation then I guess all transit agencies that use bullets have to stop too? I think not. Plus your comparing apples & oranges. The trademarked names you are referring to are specific phrasea and/or names that can be easily trademarked & enforced but MTA cannot trademark a letter in a bullet otherwise everyone is violating their trademark. As pointed out to you several times they only trademarked certain bullets specified with color like the N in a yellow bullet. |
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| (825895) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:39:47 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:34:32 2009. I agree but I have a sick feeling they will go after them anyways |
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| (825897) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:43:03 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:27:38 2009. Quite frankly this is all BS the MTA should not be trademarking anything. They're a public agency and everything they do have should be public domain. That IMHO. |
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| (825898) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:46:26 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:27:38 2009. tell it to the judge. |
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| (825899) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 16:47:10 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:34:32 2009. The MTA was on very shaky ground with that to begin with since they trademark specified use on apparel such as t-shirts, etc. A photograph of an in-service train cannot be confused with a bullet taken out of context and used on a t-shirt.There have already been cases where photographers have been able to sell prints and even post cards and calendars that include images with trademarks. Union Pacific tried to stop a photographer from selling calendars only to end up caving in and granting a royalty-free license in perpetuity when the photographer hired his own attorney and pursued the case. Also of note is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Case They tried to prevent a photographer from selling pictures of their building and lost on appeal. |
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| (825900) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Aug 26 16:47:41 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:24:16 2009. He probably means trademarks. Apparently, some people think that "copyright" and "trademark" are interchangeable. |
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| (825901) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Aug 26 16:50:18 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 09:58:22 2009. It was settled again recently in reference to rights fees and fantasy leagues relating to MLB; Yahoo has filed a similar suit against the NFL.http://paidcontent.org/article/419-fantasy-leagues-win-against-mlb-supreme-court-refuses-to-hear-appeal/ |
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| (825902) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Aug 26 16:53:50 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by randyo on Wed Aug 26 16:17:18 2009. That may not apply with the R143 and R160.Another trademark appears on the ends of those cars… |
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| (825905) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:59:31 2009, in response to [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 25 23:48:52 2009. I found these words next to the link to the trademark serch on wikipedia " however a licensed attorney may be required to interpret the search results." |
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| (825906) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 16:59:35 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by R36 #9346 on Wed Aug 26 16:53:50 2009. The Logo can be easily photoshopped out and does not mean as much as the route bullet.IMO The route bullet is more important to the picture - it conveys information about the location of the train and the route it was on. It could even transform an otherwise mundane picture to a historically significant event such as a "G" train going to Coney Island. Editorially it is of greater significance than the logo, which is why I am upset that the MTA is taking the position it has with respect to pictures that include the bullets but I couldn't care less about their logo. |
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| (825907) | |
Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Aug 26 16:59:57 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 12:04:30 2009. You're not the one who was asked to do anything, so you have no right or reason to object to the question.You're being an ass just for the sake of being an ass. |
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| (825910) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Aug 26 17:04:01 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 15:47:06 2009. You'd possibly be protected as a whistleblower; additionally, your union should protect your job as well. |
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| (825911) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 17:05:20 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:38:37 2009. No, they resigstered those marks, any mark they use to conduct business can be claimed a service mark.TITLE 15 CHAPTER 22 SUBCHAPTER III § 1127 The term “trademark” includes any word, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof— (1) used by a person(under the law, the MTA counts as a person), or (2) which a person has a bona fide intention to use in commerce and applies to register on the principal register established by this chapter, to identify and distinguish his or her goods, including a unique product, from those manufactured or sold by others and to indicate the source of the goods, even if that source is unknown. The term “service mark” means any word, name, symbol, or device, or any combination thereof— (1) used by a person, or (2) which a person has a bona fide intention to use in commerce and applies to register on the principal register established by this chapter, to identify and distinguish the services of one person, including a unique service, from the services of others and to indicate the source of the services, even if that source is unknown. Titles, character names, and other distinctive features of radio or television programs may be registered as service marks notwithstanding that they, or the programs, may advertise the goods of the sponsor. The term “mark” includes any trademark, service mark, collective mark, or certification mark. The term “use in commerce” means the bona fide use of a mark in the ordinary course of trade, and not made merely to reserve a right in a mark. For purposes of this chapter, a mark shall be deemed to be in use in commerce— (1) on goods when— (A) it is placed in any manner on the goods or their containers or the displays associated therewith or on the tags or labels affixed thereto, or if the nature of the goods makes such placement impracticable, then on documents associated with the goods or their sale, and (B) the goods are sold or transported in commerce, and (2) on services when it is used or displayed in the sale or advertising of services and the services are rendered in commerce, or the services are rendered in more than one State or in the United States and a foreign country and the person rendering the services is engaged in commerce in connection with the services. some jurisitions (who exactly I have yet to find out becuase I have no time to look I have somewhere to be) include a civil tort called "passing off" proecting thier good will. if you were unaware of MUNI , and saw that shirt, you might think it's a bash on someone else. |
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| (825912) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Aug 26 17:06:23 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 15:40:12 2009. How about not pointing out the obvious and taking your own advice? |
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| (825917) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 17:16:18 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 17:05:20 2009. None of this proves that a generic letter in a generic circle can be trademarked by the MTA - the trademark is for a specific letter in a specific colored circle.Perhaps billiard manufacturers should sue the MTA - after all the three ball is the number three in a red circle! As for bashing MUNI or the MTA - that is protected by the first amendment of the United States. They are a government agency and deserve to be bashed... AFAIAC that shirt is a parody no matter how you look at it. I should have one made with the N/R/W bullets (N)ever (R)arely (W)henever |
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| (825936) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 18:01:53 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Aug 26 17:04:01 2009. Thanks :) I know but I am not worried anyhow. I doubt they will say anything |
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| (825937) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 26 18:03:34 2009, in response to NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by BMTLines on Tue Aug 25 19:15:27 2009. Well,the MTA SHOULD SUE MUNI..They have used bullets on there light rail cars for years on end.. |
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| (825939) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 26 18:04:24 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 16:29:18 2009. sue MUNI..and see how far they get. |
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| (825940) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 18:10:42 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by metropod on Wed Aug 26 17:05:20 2009. Thanks for the info. but to be honest I do not see anything here that really applies to this situation. They are entitled to trademark their bullets as they had in TESS, but their registration only states the route number in the specific color. This rule here does not say it is for colorless or not. They cannot again trademark that otherwise a lot of companies will be in trouble. Ok, now, if I saw that shirt and was in SF I would not think it was a bash on anyone else but MUNI as the bullet colors & line repesentations correspond directly to MUNI. Even if I saw that shirt here I probably would not even think of it against the MTA as the bullet colors are wrong. But, I will give you that some may take it the wrong way but you know what? The shairts is a parody, something funny not facts. |
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| (825941) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 18:10:58 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by bmtlines on Wed Aug 26 17:16:18 2009. IAWTP 100% |
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| (826065) | |
Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 27 01:21:27 2009, in response to Re: NY MTA Claims SFMTA Parody Infringes on Trademarks, posted by arnine on Wed Aug 26 16:39:47 2009. However, judges don't like plaintiffs who pursue frivolous lawsuits which an attempt at any action would certainly be. |
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Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Aug 27 10:20:11 2009, in response to Re: [Long] MTA Trademarks, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Aug 26 16:46:26 2009. Better still, Sphinx Productions should sue them for that one... ;-)But it is hilariously absurd. A quick Google News archive search takes the phrase "poetry in motion" back to Monday 6th September, 1886. And Google Books does even better with 1826. There is too much timidity around: the MTA's lawyers deserve the response in Arkell v Pressdram. |
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