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| Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th (643832) | |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 14:50:58 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 14:15:13 2008. Don't have those figures, sorry, way before I got involved.I remember the M3's were like around 1.1 million a car. |
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| (645120) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:09:24 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 13:25:35 2008. Notr when you have to start from scratch.Apparently, SNCF in France determined that converting the third rail suburban railway networks was a prudent choice in the 1960s and 1970s, and the Germans are considering converting some of the third rail S-Bahn lines in Hamburg and Berlin to overhead catenary as well. |
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| (645121) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:11:44 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 6 12:20:10 2008. Adding a third power source would be insane.The Long Island Railroad electrification exclusively uses 750 vdc third rail. What is the second power source? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (645122) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 16:13:02 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:11:44 2008. Diesel fuel. |
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| (645123) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 16:14:37 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:09:24 2008. The added difficulty with LIRR probably involves vertical clearances, especially in the Atlantic Av Tunnel, and in the 63rd St Tunnel. |
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| (645124) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 16:15:28 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:09:24 2008. In the 1960s and 1970s it worked out OK, especially given the much greater financial resources those railroads have and their tremendous ridership. The TGV is a national treasure, not just a railroad."the Germans are considering converting some of the third rail S-Bahn lines in Hamburg and Berlin to overhead catenary as well." Considering means zilch. Let's see if they actually do it (they might). |
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| (645125) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:17:43 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 16:13:02 2008. Diesel fuel.The theory that others and I have had is that by converting the LIRR to full electrified railway, it can avoid the expense of having to purchase and maintain what would become a smaller and less reliable diesel fleet with the extension of electrification. Yes, there would be work diesels around, but you can always buy those second hand off a freight road... |
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| (645126) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 16:21:42 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:17:43 2008. And what do you operate during a powerout or snowstorm ??shut down the region ??? Leave 60 000 commuters stranded in NYC ??? |
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| (645128) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 16:28:58 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 16:21:42 2008. Depends on the reliability of each item in the system.Can LIRR's switches be operated manually though the major interlockings? If power is lost, probably the signal system is gone, so the whole railroad over the power deprived portion would probably have to operate, if at all, through some quite restrictive absolute block system. SEPTA is all-electric; how do they handle severe snowstorms? |
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| (645132) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 16:36:26 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:17:43 2008. Agreed. |
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| (645135) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:42:24 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 16:14:37 2008. The added difficulty with LIRR probably involves vertical clearances, especially in the Atlantic Av Tunnel, and in the 63rd St Tunnel.Hence why I have always advocated for 750 vdc + 11kV/25kV rolling stock. |
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| (645141) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:55:35 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 16:21:42 2008. During the last major blackout, the railroads were dead because the signals were down and the tracks were littered with dead electric trains. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 17:01:51 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 16:28:58 2008. Only thing need is to hand crank the switches and to establish manual block.is SEPTA even a railroad ??? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 17:03:58 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:55:35 2008. sSure and if blackout would have lasted longer those electric trains would have been moved and dieselservice instituted.LIRR and MNCR have learned hopefully from last blackout. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 6 17:28:44 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:09:24 2008. Excellent point. |
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| (645184) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 19:14:46 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jul 6 17:01:51 2008. is SEPTA even a railroad ???The rumor is that they might do some diesel routes (again) in the future, even. |
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| (645185) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 19:19:04 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Jul 6 16:42:24 2008. Then there is also the phase difference. AMTK uses 25 Hz AC in the NYP area, but most other more modern operations use 60 Hz. |
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| (645188) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 6 19:23:41 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 19:14:46 2008. 8-0 (means OMG!) |
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| (645194) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 6 19:31:44 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 6 12:24:40 2008. There's a bit more to it than that. The high cost of the proposed dual modes relative to that of other locomotives and the cost of electrifying make them a questionable investment before the unprove technology is factorered in. As with all dual modes they will only provide a different market for diesel line passengers, without any savings that electrifcation would provide. Thus this is a risky, expensive, and stopgap solution to a problem which wil not arrise for another 10 or more years when the ARC tunnel is completed. |
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| (645325) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 7 01:09:56 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 18:46:46 2008. No. It require major work to be done to Secaucus to make it a terminal station, saves no money on the tunneling, and forces some people into three seat rides while ensuring no new one seat rides are created. It is nothing short of a politicians dream to funnel money out of NJ and directly into th MTA's coffers while providing little or no benefit to the commuters. |
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| (645332) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jul 7 02:52:03 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 18:46:46 2008. In your fantasy sandbox, perhaps. Tonka excavators can be had for a few bucks and the 4-year old who helps you with it doesn't have to join the Teamsters. |
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| (645333) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 7 03:23:25 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Jul 7 02:52:03 2008. When is RonInTrollside going to take a more mature tack? I don't agree with him either, but I'm not going to dig my own grave by falling to witless garbage like that. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 10:56:48 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 18:46:46 2008. As a replacement for meeting the aims for THE project, Flushing Line extension wouldn't accomplish very much.However, with respect to the growing communities on and near the banks of the Hudson on NJ side, which aren't served by commuter rail to NY, and which won't be served by THE project, Flushing Line extension would help. But such extension would probably have to be considered under the heading of PATH expansion. |
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| (645484) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Jul 7 13:13:37 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jul 6 19:19:04 2008. ICE 3M EMUs deal with four different electrifications15 kV 16.7 Hz AC 25 kV 50 Hz AC 1.5 kV DC 3 kV DC The tram-trains of Karlsruhe can do 15 kV 16.7 Hz AC and 750V DC and most of the electrical equipment fit on the 10m long center car. It's not asking for the impossible. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 13:30:20 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Jul 7 13:13:37 2008. Not saying that it's impossible, but apparently on the M8s, they will not be able to operate pulling 25 Hz AC power, because they were presumably judged too heavy otherwise.Q about the tram-trains: is the 750v DC supply via catenary or 3rd rail? |
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| (645526) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 7 15:10:23 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Wado MP73 on Mon Jul 7 13:13:37 2008. All of those are EMUs with no diesel apparatus. For the record, that is. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 7 15:11:16 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 13:30:20 2008. Overhead. Karlsruhe's streetcar system doesn't use third rail. |
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| (645539) | |
Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 7 15:30:22 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 13:30:20 2008. "Too heavy" really had more to do with the fact that NYP access is an iffy proposition at best and thus would not justify the weight they'd be saddled with in the interim period. The M8s already weigh something like 141,000 lbs, so a few thousand pounds added to the transformer core isn't going to make them unworkable. However, from what I gather ConnDOT and the MTA were not enamored with the idea of shelling out for the additional power and maitenance that weight would generate when they may never operate on 25hz wire. An LIRR multisystem EMU would be an entirely different beast from this perspective because it'd be able to make profitable use of 25hz wire on a regular basis. So designing for that frequency and accepting the weight penalty of the low frequency transformer would make more sense.The Karlsruhe tram-trains, the GT8-100C/D, as well as the tram trains in Kassel and Saarbrucken, all use a medium frequency transformer to reduce weight. They only take power from overhead wires, be they AC or DC, with no provisions for third rail operation. This actually slightly increases the complexity relative to a thid rail unit because all power comes through the pantograph. The medium frequency tranformer reduces the core weight by inserting a device that bumps the input frequency up before it enters the transformer. This allows for a tranformer small enough and light enough to be placed on the roof of the railcar. Unfortunately it is also somewhat restrictive in terms of power output, with current units toppong out at around 1.5 MW, short of the M8's power requirements and a very long way from the needs of the NJT dual mode locomotive. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Jul 7 15:41:56 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 13:30:20 2008. "Too heavy" really had more to do with the fact that NYP access is an iffy proposition at best and thus would not justify the weight they'd be saddled with in the interim period. The M8s already weigh something like 141,000 lbs, so a few thousand pounds added to the transformer core isn't going to make them unworkable. However, from what I gather ConnDOT and the MTA were not enamored with the idea of shelling out for the additional power and maitenance that weight would generate when they may never operate on 25hz wire. An LIRR multisystem EMU would be an entirely different beast from this perspective because it'd be able to make profitable use of 25hz wire on a regular basis. So designing for that frequency and accepting the weight penalty of the low frequency transformer would make more sense.The Karlsruhe tram-trains, the GT8-100C/D, as well as the tram trains in Kassel and Saarbrucken, all use a medium frequency transformer to reduce weight. They only take power from overhead wires, be they AC or DC, with no provisions for third rail operation. This actually slightly increases the complexity relative to a thid rail unit because all power comes through the pantograph. The medium frequency tranformer reduces the core weight by inserting a device that bumps the input frequency up before it enters the transformer. This allows for a tranformer small enough and light enough to be placed on the roof of the railcar. Unfortunately it is also somewhat restrictive in terms of power output, with current units toppong out at around 1.5 MW, short of the M8's power requirements and a very long way from the needs of the NJT dual mode locomotive. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 16:14:08 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by WillD on Mon Jul 7 15:30:22 2008. Thanks for your informative post.I've heard a guarantee from MTA ED Elliott Sander that MNR will run to NYP, but beyond a gimmick, I don't put much stock in that. So I would agree with cost-benefit analysis done in the M8 case; the third rail solution is fairly elegant, anyway. It will be interesting to follow the NJT DP locomotive project, although I believe that electrification should have been at the forefront of the expansion agenda. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 7 22:26:29 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 20:20:06 2008. the problem is not just diesel but over running third rail (NYCT and LIRR type) plus two different voltages of catenary(12K and 25K). If you add Metro North electric service now you add under running third rail to the mix.Now let us say we just use the voltage of overhead that exists on a line then there is till the need for substations to bring the power to the overhead catenary. I can see and hear the NIMBYS already! their screams are deafening!! |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 22:56:11 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Jul 7 22:26:29 2008. M8s are supposed to be able to use both types of third rail. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Jul 7 23:01:07 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jul 7 22:56:11 2008. Suppose to, but so far big problem in shoe design land ;-) |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jul 8 00:26:00 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Jul 7 23:01:07 2008. They've still got time to iron out the details. :)I have a feeling that even if they do get the shoes to work with both third rail systems, it will pretty much only come in handy if/when the M8s ever take a trip to Arch St. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by J trainloco on Tue Jul 8 01:05:08 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jul 5 23:47:36 2008. The OP most certainly didn't assert that, since the OP was me.I meant original post. Sorry. NJT's own policy plan was formerly to extend electrification before the current era that has once again seemingly abandoned efforts at electrification in favor of the dual mode strategy. Was the earlier generation of NJT directors simply off base? I have no idea. A cost analysis would probably determine the answer. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by J trainloco on Tue Jul 8 01:05:49 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Jul 6 00:49:14 2008. A truly insightful reply. Thanks Olog. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by J trainloco on Tue Jul 8 01:24:04 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jul 8 00:26:00 2008. How is this even possible? Unless the bottom of MNRRs 3rd rail is near the same elevation as the top of LIRR's.Maybe re-designing LIRRs third rails so that they all begin with a slope up from a lower elevation and M8s have a flexible shoe? Maybe I should've studied industrial design! |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Jul 8 08:32:02 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jul 8 00:26:00 2008. Why would M-8's go to Arch street ??? it is leased to Bombardier the M-8's are Kawasaki, as in yonkers.The Arch Street facility at end of this year will return to LIRR as Bombardier lease is over. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jul 8 09:44:41 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Jul 8 08:32:02 2008. I said if they ever went to Arch St. Otherwise, I don't believe that they will ever have need to run outside of their usual territory, especially not to NYP. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jul 9 12:50:44 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. Nice! Finally, a one seat ride to High Bridge and Hackettstown! |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 13:07:37 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jul 9 12:50:44 2008. Keep dreaming. BBD will not be able to deliver. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 13:08:33 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jul 9 12:50:44 2008. Keep dreaming. BBD will not be able to deliver, not without putting extra axles on it at the very least.Besides, there won't be any capacity, even if they manage to build THAT Tunnel and the ARC stub station. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 13:17:29 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 13:08:33 2008. Bombardier is not the only one dreaming - CAF has a proposed dual powered unit for Europe called the Bitrac. Their 22.5 tonne axle limit (for both a four and six axle unit) is far less than NJT's 32.7 tonne limit, granting that they don't have meet FRA Tier I requirements. What's not clear is whether this will be powered by AC or DC overhead. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 13:19:09 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. From July 6 news report on Railway Age:Bombardier lands NJ Transit dual-power locomotive contract After a long development process, New Jersey Transit is expected to award a $325.42 million contract ($309.92 million plus 5% for contingencies) to Bombardier Transportation for 26 dual-power (diesel/a.c. catenary, also known as “electric-diesel”) locomotives at its July 9 board meeting. The contract includes spare parts and is “subject to the availability of funds,” according to NJT’s board agenda. The new-technology locomotives fall under NJT’s $1.29 billion Fiscal Year 2009 capital program. They will replace the oldest units in the agency’s fleet, some of which are 40 years old. The procurement is part of NJT’s ongoing rolling stock modernization program, which also includes 326 Bombardier MultiLevel commuter railcars, 27 Bombardier ALP-46 electric locomotives, 110 electric multiple-units, and 1,365 new buses. “The purchase of dual-powered locomotives is a cost-effective solution for operating in both electrified and non-electrified territory,” NJT’s board agenda item states. “Dual-powered locomotives will provide the flexibility to operate throughout the entire system as needed” and “will also allow NJT to develop operational experience with dual-power capability in anticipation of the Access to the Region’s Core project (Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel), which is designed to provide one-seat, direct rail service to New York City.” Traditional dual-mode (diesel/third-rail-electric) propulsion has been around for quite some time in North America, but dual-power rolling stock that combines a.c. catenary with diesel propulsion has, until now, never been seriously attempted here. For at least the past two years, NJT and Montreal's AMT (Agence Metropolitaine de Transport) have been collaborating on workable, cost-effective dual-power equipment to provide passengers with one-seat rides between electrified and non-electrified territory. NJT already operates services where a transfer is required; AMT plans to construct new lines that feed into an existing electrified line. STV, Inc. provided engineering assistance to NJT and AMT on the dual-power locomotives. These locomotives, which will cost about $12 million each, are designed to satisfy several of NJT's operating constraints. Among these are Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor tunnel clearances (the locked-down-pantograph height in the Hudson River tunnels is 14 feet 7 inches), carbody space (no more than 75 feet long), noise levels, EPA emissions compliance (Tier II, with Tier III coming up in 2010), performance, and—most problematic—weight. Amtrak's maximum locomotive weight on the Northeast Corridor is 288,000 pounds gross rail load for speeds above 79 mph. The challenge has been to fit a diesel power plant and electrical transformer into one carbody within those parameters. How do you distribute weight on four axles (NJT's preference), provide good adhesion on grades, and not be off the charts on curving forces? One way is to reduce unsprung mass by suspending the traction motors on the trucks, not the axles (this is done with the Alstom Transport PL42AC diesel and Bombardier ALP46 electric). As for the diesel engine, a traditional 16- or 12-cylinder low-speed (900 rpm) diesel is too heavy. A high-speed (1,800 rpm) diesel is much lighter yet just as powerful, but its components will have a much higher wear rate. The solution is utilizing not one but two engine/generator sets, with computerized engine management that equalizes engine service hours. AMT expects to order as many as 20 dual-power locomotives in its five-year capital plan. This agency has the same operating constraints as NJT, namely, the three-mile-long tunnel on the 25Kv-electrified Deux Montagnes Line, which serves Montreal's Central Station. AMT plans to connect the non-electrified Blainville Line to the Deux Montagnes Line just outside the tunnel, and construct the new, non-electrified Repentigny-Mascouche Line, which will feed into the Deux Montages at Mont-Royal. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jul 9 13:38:56 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 13:17:29 2008. There's a huge difference between AC and DC, AC catenary dual modes will require a lot more equipment and will no doubt be much heavier. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jul 9 13:45:29 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 13:19:09 2008. Definitely one of the more exciting things going on now, IMO. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Jul 9 13:45:46 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 13:08:33 2008. That sucks. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 14:07:52 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jul 9 13:38:56 2008. Of course. The main difference is that an AC power supply means that the units need a transformer, you don't with a DC source. That's why there are already dual mode (overhead) electrics around but far less AC units that I know of (I can think of one right now - SBB Eem 6/6 which was more of two separate units). CAF is obviously a Spanish company and there's a lot of DC overhead in Spain. They're marketing this unit throughout Europe. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 14:23:21 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 13:17:29 2008. There are existing DC overhead dual-mode locos, all right.I take it you mean 32.7 tonnes per axle? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Jace on Wed Jul 9 15:16:49 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 9 14:23:21 2008. Yep, per axle. |
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