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| NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th (643832) | |
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| (643832) | |
NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008 These are pegged as 'action items' on the Board agenda, for the July 9, 2008 meeting:0807-45 FISCAL YEAR 2009 CAPITAL PROGRAM NJ TRANSIT’s $1.29 billion Fiscal Year 2009 Capital Program targets investments to make public transportation the “preferred choice of travel”. The capital program advances initiatives to modernize the transit system while improving service and reliability. NJ TRANSIT’s $1.29 billion Fiscal Year 2009 Capital Program emphasizes Governor Corzine’s commitment to support mass transportation in the State of New Jersey. Consistent with NJ TRANSIT’s Capital Investment Strategy, the Fiscal Year 2009 Capital Program calls for continued investment in the State’s transit infrastructure in order to improve the overall state-of-good-repair of the system, improving reliability and safety and ensuring continued satisfaction of NJ TRANSIT’s customers. Foremost among these efforts is NJ TRANSIT’s rolling stock modernization program, which includes the procurement of 1365 new buses, 326 multilevel railcars, 53 electric and dual power locomotives, and 110 electric multiple units. 0807-48 DUAL-POWERED PASSENGER LOCOMOTIVES: PURCHASE OF 26 PASSENGER LOCOMOTIVES AND CONTRACT AMENDMENT FOR ENGINEERING ASSISTANCE NJ TRANSIT uses diesel locomotives, which are approximately 40 years old and in need of replacement, to operate its current rail service in non-electrified territories. The purchase of dual-powered locomotives is a cost-effective solution for operating in both electrified and non-electrified territory. The dual-powered locomotives will provide the flexibility to operate throughout the entire system as needed. There are several benefits to replacing the diesel locomotives with the dual-powered locomotives. The dual-powered locomotives run more efficiently in diesel mode than the older diesel locomotives in the NJ TRANSIT fleet that they will replace. The dual-powered locomotives will also operate more cleanly in electric mode than the diesel locomotives, a direct benefit to the environment, and with better acceleration. Fuel savings will also be realized when operating under electric power. The use of these locomotives will also allow NJ TRANSIT to develop operational experience with the dual power capability in anticipation of the Access to the Region’s Core project which is designed to provide one-seat, direct rail service to New York City. Authorization is requested to contract (No. 07-062) with Bombardier Transit Corporation of Bensalem, Pennsylvania, for the purchase of 26 Dual-Powered Locomotives, including spare parts, at a cost not to exceed $309,921,369, plus five percent for contingencies, subject to the availability of funds. Authorization is also requested to amend the contract (No. 05-098) with STV, Incorporated of New York, New York, for design and engineering assistance during the manufacture of the dual-powered locomotives at a cost not to exceed $7,904,000, plus five percent for contingencies, for a total contract authorization of $13,352,850, subject to the availability of funds. Full list of all items here. Note that there is some interesting stuff there, including on Portal Draw replacement. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 18:05:03 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. What's a "dual-powered locomotive"?? Is this their new way of saying "dual-mode"? (Look at the specs of the never-built Genesis III from about a decade ago—NJT's chasing an impossible dream if they even bother with that "dual-powered" beast. Why did they even buy the P40DCs then?!?)They've gone mad in that state. Completely mad. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 3 18:37:20 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 18:05:03 2008. This is how the get political buy-in from the diesel suburbs for the T.H.E. boondoggle. This is a wet dream for contactors. Whether they do anything good for customers is secondary and merely a bonus. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 18:48:46 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 3 18:37:20 2008. That's one huge gamble. I see it blowing up in their faces. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 20:11:15 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 3 18:37:20 2008. There are a lot of risk factors too: NJT has no experience with dual mode operations, there isn't any successful operation of this type of AC/diesel enterprise that has been done, the RFP on the EMU-DMU vehicle didn't exactly produce promising results, if these units turn out to be unreliable then AMTK is not going to like them very much in NYP, etc.LIRR's effort at the DM30 involved only a bit of innovation compared to the stuff that was already on the market, and as a matter of history, the judgment so far seems fairly firmly to be that LIRR would have been better off to go with P32DMs instead of DM30s. So NJT's approach makes LIRR's effort look downright conservative. It would be very interesting if they got it to work - to have the NJT DM push/pull a train using electricity from the wire at up to MAS - but there is a ton of risk in this. Much less risky would have been to simply work on completing electrification. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 20:20:06 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 18:05:03 2008. I just don't see why NJT didn't pursue completion of electrification. Not much left to go to take it all the way to Bay Head, covering the entire NJCL. Electrification to Hackettstown is also fairly short to reach. And not much to finish off from MSU to Denville, either.When they get THE tunnel to THE terminal within completion timetables, then gradual electrification on the rest of the Hoboken Division could take place. RVL electrification will unfortunately be much harder to achieve. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:07:29 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. Dual powered locomotives? The kind of dual modes they need do not exist! |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:13:41 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 18:05:03 2008. The only way they can be serious is if they go the third rail route. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 21:25:53 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:13:41 2008. Of course. But look at all the nonsense they throw in, including the claim that the "dual-powered" hog will "save fuel"—how? not even the Genesis III was projected to go any faster than 60 mph in electric mode, and even going back then, 285,000 lbs sounds totally impossible for total locomotive weight when you consider the size of transformer necessary to step down the high voltage. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:30:22 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 21:25:53 2008. I don't understand the logic of wasting money on a project doomed to failure. Politically it's bad. They should be concentrating on making promises they can actually deliver on. The most logical thing from an engineering and financial standpoint it so extend electrification into current diesel-only areas. But I suppose the concept of a dual mode can be equally sold to everyone served only by diesels, not just those areas where ridership justifies the expense of installing the wire(s). |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 22:12:19 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:07:29 2008. That's why they hired people to design and build them for them... |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:00:18 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 22:12:19 2008. That's t3h ph04m talking.Think you can tell us how to fit the equivalent of a PL42AC and an ALP46A on a 79-foot-long frame, B-B trucks, Tier II emissions, and keep the whole thing under 295,000 lbs . . . ? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:02:47 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jul 3 21:07:29 2008. More like the kind of dual-modes they think they want do not exist. The type that Metro-North and Amtrak uses would be much more readily available, and it would only take a bit of investment in third rail to have 'em. (But then again, at present it would only be useful for converting existing two-seat rides to one-seat, e.g. restoring the former one-seat ride to Bay Head that NJT got rid of because they suddenly got too cheap to engage in engine changes . . .) |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:08:57 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:00:18 2008. No, not at all. All I said was that's why they hired people to design and build them for them... |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:11:19 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:02:47 2008. What you don't seem to understand is that with enough money, almost anything is possible. You can see that these locomotives are very expensive. Therefore it is safe to assume they are throwing enough money at the project to bring this kind of dual-mode into existence. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:21:24 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:11:19 2008. I do not see how such a locomotive is practical, never mind possible. You're trying to justify pork spending, and I mean true pork (experimental versus proven technology, for almost unlimited dollars and little benefit when all is said and done, especially compared to actually electrifying the remaining diesel-only corridors, which would be money far better spent). It's not good practice to turn a transit company into a test bed for unlimited spending. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Jul 3 23:23:08 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 3 18:37:20 2008. This is a wet dream for contactors.In effect, NJT's purchase of the units brings down the price per unit somewhat which leads to the programme being a defacto subsidy for AMT which really needs the units for the planned line to Terrebonne & Repentigny. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 23:24:54 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:11:19 2008. The proposal that NJT's Board is to vote on involves a maximum per unit price paid to Bombardier of approximately $13 million for each of 26 'dual power' locomotives.It was reported that Bombardier is being paid approximately $8.5 million per unit of ALP46As on the initial order of 27. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Jul 3 23:31:45 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. I think it would be a better idea to electrify the Main Line and the NJ Coast line to Bay Head. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 23:37:43 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:21:24 2008. It wouldn't be as strange a selection if much of NJT's trackage were unelectrified, or if it were electrified via third rail. But in fact neither of those is the case.It would be quite useful technology, but I'm not sure why NJT is footing the bill for this. If by whatever miracle it works out, the first non-NJT order of the units just comes with a built-in NJT subsidy. Plus, one also has to figure in to make up an actual 'dual power' trainset, assuming that it requires one locomotive, that's $13 million right there, multiply it by two if there's another, and then tack on the unit price of the multilevel coaches times however many one aims to put on a train. Doing the rough numbers, a 10-car 'DP' trainset could end up costing in the neighborhood of $46 million. For comparison, a 10-car trainset of M8s would cost about $25 million given the numbers I recall about them ($520 million order for 210 cars). |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:40:11 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 23:24:54 2008. And? $13 million seems to be a good chunk more than $8.5 million...so... |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:41:17 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jul 3 23:21:24 2008. No, I did not try to justify anything. I simply explained to you how it can be likely done, i.e. with enough money. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 23:46:37 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:40:11 2008. The comparison is to a straight electric locomotive, which the DP sure isn't. For $4.5 million more per unit, the proposal starts to sound too good to be true.Secondly, why did NJT purchase the PL42s, given this new tack that they are pursuing? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 00:14:26 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 23:46:37 2008. ????????????They are more than just straight electrics - that's why they cost more ---- A LOT MORE --- $4.5 million more per unit! That's exactly what I am saying. Why do you keep pointing out the obvious? I have no idea why NJT does some of the things they do. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 00:18:04 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 00:14:26 2008. They are more than just straight electrics - that's why they cost more ---- A LOT MORE --- $4.5 million more per unitSo long as you also say that they are a waste of money, too, that'd be fine. I personally call it inexcusable and a betrayal of the public's trust. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 00:39:27 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 00:18:04 2008. No, I'm saying what I'm say, that they cost more ---- A LOT MORE --- $4.5 million more per unit. I haven't done the proper research to state an opinion on the matter. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 00:57:19 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 00:39:27 2008. Even without researching, it oughta be an outrage. Stick with what's proven, which is not austere by definition. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:25:03 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 22:12:19 2008. That's how the military works, issuing ground-breaking specifications and evaluating the proposals. It's a hideously expensive process. The money would be better spent on proven technology....like overhead wire. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:33:03 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 3 23:11:19 2008. You can see that these locomotives are very expensive. How can I, or anyone else? Not one example exists in the industry to use for comparison. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:38:24 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 00:14:26 2008. How can NJT reasonably put a price tag on a locomotive which so far has proven impossible to manufacture? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jul 4 01:53:55 2008, in response to NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 16:04:32 2008. They have money for this, but they have no money to run 4 late night/early morning weekend RVL trains that they eliminated back in May, plus next month they are proposing to eliminate a few early Sunday morning RVL trains as well. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 07:59:39 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 20:11:15 2008. Even less risky than electrification would have been 3rd rail out Secaucus, get traditional dual-modes from GE, and lease out of service LIRR trains to pick up the masses at Secaucus. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 08:01:40 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jul 3 20:20:06 2008. You can't justify electrifying the Boonton line. The ridership numbers west MSU, east of Denville, and west of Dover just don't cut it. They're worse than the Oyster Bay line. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 10:22:12 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 00:57:19 2008. That is often a smart course of action, but it isn't always the only feasible course of action. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 10:22:55 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:25:03 2008. That may or may not be true. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 10:23:27 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:33:03 2008. Because the maximum costs were provided... |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 10:24:25 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 01:38:24 2008. Because I would imagine they have already discussed it with Bombardier Transit Corporation of Bensalem, Pennsylvania. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jul 4 11:01:19 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jul 4 01:53:55 2008. Rich white voters don't use the trains at these times. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by j trainloco on Fri Jul 4 11:29:54 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 00:57:19 2008. Stick with what's provenLike this: 
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 11:42:03 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by j trainloco on Fri Jul 4 11:29:54 2008. It's easy to make fun of, but if and when this course of action by NJT's Board produces no locomotives and the old diesel engines have to soldier on through a few more rounds of procurement processes, playing Russian Roulette might not seem as smart of an idea as it now does to some.The very fact that NJT appreciates that they want a train that can pull power from the hi-voltage AC catenary to keep costs down is a testament to precisely the path that they are rejecting, i.e., electrification. And, as said before, if this technology works out successfully, and not as an anemic, obese gimmick, that's wonderful, but NJT just subsidized every purchaser of that locomotive down the line. Who knew that they were in the charity business? |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:04:40 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Fri Jul 4 01:53:55 2008. If anything, this proposal seems to confirm that diesel runs are going to be especially targeted for elimination, since NJT is conceding the higher cost of operations - while declining to pursue any electrification! - by stating that they will run the DP locomotives in electric mode whenever there is wire to pull juice from to save money on operations. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:09:10 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 07:59:39 2008. That part of the plan is a long way off, anyway, if it ever does come to pass. So it's unclear how LIRR DM30s are going to make it to the lower level at Secaucus. Plus, even more fatally, THE tunnel won't connect to NYP. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:14:04 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 08:01:40 2008. If there were traffic coming in from well west of Dover maybe, say into the next state, but it's a hard sell, conceded.But there's always the traditional dual mode operation run AMTK/MNR style even for the Boonton Line.... |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 12:14:54 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:04:40 2008. The amount of miles RVL and Bergen/Main trains spend beneath wires is negligible. The fact is, it's a contractors wet dream, sounds good to NJ's inept polticians, and NJT is clueless about markets to anywhere but mid-Manhattan. The Jersey CIty Gold COast is growing faster any palce in Manhattan. Neither T.H.E. nor these engines do that market any good. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:19:58 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 4 10:24:25 2008. NJT didn't put a real price tag on the DP locomotives.NJT is proposing to put a price ceiling on the DP locomotives and their R&D. If the contract shatters the price ceiling, then NJT will either abandon the effort - thus wasting the money expended up to that date - or else vote out more funding until a new price ceiling is shattered or success is achieved. Repeat until either the project is abandoned or successful. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:30:10 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by Joe V on Fri Jul 4 12:14:54 2008. The Jersey CIty Gold COast is growing faster any palce in Manhattan. Neither T.H.E. nor these engines do that market any good.My sense is that they have left that problem for PATH to figure out. Given the short distances involved, it might make sense to consider extending the Flushing Line across the river. You are certainly correct that development, even through the slowdown based on my anecdotal observations, appears to be continuing. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 4 13:20:08 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:30:10 2008. That idea was actually considered in the THE studies...and thrown out just as quickly. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 4 13:22:22 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 12:04:40 2008. NJT would be saving money if electrification were extended (in the long rn). Electricity costs aren't anywhere near diesel fuel.I wonder if someone received donations from, or owns stock in, Bombardier. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jul 4 13:51:42 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 4 13:22:22 2008. I doubt that there was crude quid pro quo, myself. Then again, this is NJ, so who knows for sure? But Bombardier would be one of the few companies with the knowledge base to try its hand at the project.Ultimately, I just think that this decision, which to be sure, has not yet been approved - it's sett to be voted on, next week - is unwise, and not corrupt. And maybe that's even worse, in a way, given that corruption can still potentially result in a worthwhile - if cost-inflated - project, whereas foolishness never will. Conservatism can be a decent policy choice heuristic. Also, note that STV is to receive an contract worth in excess of $13 million, including contingencies. Their management has collaborated/directed many projects in our area, including the 'PATH Transportation Hub' at WTC. |
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Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 4 14:16:43 2008, in response to Re: NJT Board considering large capital expenditure on new rolling stock, including DMs & EMUs, July 9th, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri Jul 4 13:22:22 2008. Seems to me it's consultant manipulation.Got a note from Edwards & Kelcey yesterday, telling me about yet another public meeting about the Kutoff in Stroudsburg. How many of these do they need to send out? NJT should be concentrating on service expansion on the capital end, not on buying more trains or placating the little whiners that want the train to go one more mile east across the Hudson—these whiners will get into a train bound for the waterfront when gas prices are as high as they are presently in Europe. |
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