|
|
| Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo (554375) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 18 of 20 |
||
|
| (561750) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:50:19 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 30 03:24:14 2008. What is scandalous is that they aren't building a SAS shell station at South FerryWhy is that scandalous? Have you seen how close the southern entrance of the Hanover Square Station will be to South Ferry? It is a touch over 700' away. |
|
|
| (561753) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:55:13 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by SMAZ on Wed Jan 30 02:31:35 2008. Again, the MTA does not have an extra $4 billion lying around to build both the Nassau alignment and Water St.It is one or the other, and Water St is clearly the superior alignment. Also, are you actually advocating that trains terminate in Chatham Sq.? |
|
|
| (561767) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Wed Jan 30 20:21:13 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:55:13 2008. How is the Water Street segment superior?How? Aside from Grand Street, there is no transfer option in any of the others stations. Look at the comparison: Hanover Square may look close to Whitehall terminal but it is not, nor does Broad Street. But Broad Street is right in the heart of the Wall Street District, while Hanover Square is hanging out at Water Street. Patrons from the UES bound for Wall Street are opt to take the Nassau-SAS rather than Phase 4 which ends up near the HIP headquarters. Fulton Street on the Nassau Line has transfer privileges to the IND 8th Avenue-Fulton Line, the IRT Lexington Ave Line, the IRT Seventh Avenue Line. And when the Dey Street Passageway is completed, then there is a connection to the BMT Broadway, the IND 8th Ave Local, the PATH train and the IRT Seventh Avenue Local. Plus Fulton Street is closer to many developments in the area such as the towers slated to rise from the WTC site, Goldman Sachs and Pace University. Seaport Station is close to the South St Seaport, the hospital and the development that is under planning stage at Beekman and Pearl. Still, more patrons will be expected to use the Fulton Station rather than Seaport. As for Chatham Sq, it only serves Chinatown and the Confucius Plaza area. Yes it may do a lot for the community, but the community will still head to BROOKLYN via the N/Q/B/D. They won't use the SAS much. Meanwhile, Chambers Street will provide a transfer to the IRT and provide access to the Civic Center of Manhattan. The courts and municipal buildings are at or within 1-3 blocks of Chambers Street Station. So more patrons will use that station. At Canal Street, the train stops at the tourist part of Chinatown where A LOT of tourists visit each day. Grand Street on the other hand is more residential compared to Canal Street near Centre Street. The station also has transfer opportunities to the BMT Broadway and the IRT Lex. Those lines can go downtown, uptown, Queens, or the UES. Grand Street on the other hand provides only the B/D which heads directly to Brooklyn or continue on the 6th Ave to the UWS. Still a lot of passengers will use Canal Street. You may consider the alignment inferior due to its present deteriorating state (Chambers Street and Bowery) yet the line between Bowery and Chambers Street has room and potential for another line. It therefore more simpler and cost efficient to dig a small ditch to link the SAS tubes with the Centre Street line rather to continue to dig for another 5-7 years Downtown. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (561774) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 20:50:47 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Wed Jan 30 20:21:13 2008. Water Street is superior because it allows the SAS to add capacity to the system as it moves into the Financial District, instead of forcing other lines to terminate outside of it.Water Street is superior because, according to the FEIS, it will provide more relief for the Lex than the Nassau St alignment. Water Street is superior because all SAS trains will be able to eventually leave Manhattan for Brooklyn and/or Staten Island, while the Nassau St alignment will only allow 20tph worth of trains to do so. Water Street is superior because no fun surprises will pop up that require construction to stop while archeologists play for a few years. And if transfer options are important, the Seaport Station could be connected to Fulton St by an underground pedestrian tunnel, somewhat like the one between 7th and 8th Avenues on 42nd St. And Hanover Square is close to South Ferry. I actually took the time to look at an MTA map of where the station, and its exits will be before I made that statement. |
|
|
| (561790) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Wed Jan 30 21:42:38 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 20:50:47 2008. And Hanover Square is close to South Ferry. I actually took the time to look at an MTA map of where the station, and its exits will be before I made that statement.Go walk there yourself. Maps tell you nothing. I walked there more than a thousand times... First of all you can't judge any line superior or inferior when its not even built yet. And even if it is built, you still can't judge whether it is superior or inferior because that is just your opinion. Unless there is one major structural or infrastructural component that makes it really shameful could it be called "inferior". First of all, the Nassau St Line has 4 tracks between Bowery and Chambers of which a pair is currently disused. The SAS could use this pair. We cannot be certain about the connection to the Fulton St Line in Brooklyn or any connection to Staten Island. So in the long term the Nassau option will pay off. Plus once the M gets diverted, the SAS could replace the L/M M service that is lost due to the diversion. Water Street is superior because no fun surprises will pop up that require construction to stop while archeologists play for a few years. Think of Chrystie Street, there is a good deal of artifacts there. I suppose you should read your "trusty" FEIS on that. And if transfer options are important, the Seaport Station could be connected to Fulton St by an underground pedestrian tunnel, somewhat like the one between 7th and 8th Avenues on 42nd St. The MTA is not considering that now, plus Nassau is more centralized, who wants to walk from one end to another? The Nassau link will ease the Lex from Bowling Green to hopefully 125. Phase 4 sidetracks after Houston and bypasses the financial core in doing that. |
|
|
| (561807) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 30 21:59:27 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Wed Jan 30 21:42:38 2008. And that is the point:The greater number of people would be more likely to use the SAS to lower Manhattan via the Nassau Street connection as opposed to the Water Street connection, and it would probably not be as much cost to do. You didn't even bring up the Brooklyn end of the SAS, as in this scenario the T train likely re-claims its old route via Nassau to Bay Parkway on a 24/7 basis. It also gives West End riders a choice of 2nd or 6th avenue and local riders between 36th and Pacific a choice between Broadway and 2nd Avenue. Also, in this scenario if the SAS joins the Nassau Street line at The Bowery or Canal Street, J riders would be able to switch to the uptown SAS (T) train via a cross-platform transfer at either The Bowery or Canal the way that line is currently set up. There is no question the Water Street branch also needs to be done, but Nassau Street would provide many more connections to other lines and alternatives for many to the 4/5 in both Brooklyn and Manhattan between Pacific Street-Atlantic Avenue and 125th/Lex. |
|
|
| (561813) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 22:04:46 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Wed Jan 30 21:42:38 2008. Go walk there yourself.Maps tell you nothing. I walked there more than a thousand times... Seeing as I live in Lower Manhattan, I have. Also, I backed up my statement with a metric. It is just over 700' away. If you disagree, you might want to provide a more compelling argument. First of all, the Nassau St Line has 4 tracks between Bowery and Chambers of which a pair is currently disused. And that's why this alignment does not work. The 4 tracks are only between those stations. Which brings me back to my point that neither you, nor anyone else who advocates the Nassau St alignment will address. As a Nassau St alignment approaches Brooklyn, the capacity shrinks. It first shrinks when it moves south of Chambers. It shrinks again when it merges with the R at the Montague St Tunnel. It forces at least one route to terminate outside of the Financial District The Nassau link will ease the Lex from Bowling Green to hopefully 125. Well the FEIS says that a Water St alignment will provide greater relief. Do you have any proof that this is not correct? Phase 4 sidetracks after Houston and bypasses the financial core in doing that. Water St. is in the Financial District. Did you ever wonder what those 50 story office buildings to the east - that's right, east - of Water St. are? They are overwhelmingly occupied by the financial services sector. |
|
|
| (561908) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:48:01 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:55:13 2008. Also, are you actually advocating that trains terminate in Chatham Sq.?Yes. Just north of Chatham the (T) will diverge from the (U/Y) and go under Park Row, then double stack and connect into the Nassau stacks of the (J/Z). The (U/Y) will descend to a Lower Level under Chatham Square where they can build a terminal with turnaround capacity of at least 18-20 TPH just like the new South Ferry. Provisions can be built to further extend the line to Water St. As for your comment in another post referring to archaeological findings, my alignment bypasses the African Burial Grounds. OTOH, I'm sure you know that Water St was once the actual riverfront street in Manhattan. Everything east of there is landfill. It will be an archaeological feast once the digging starts there especially near South St Seaport and Old Slip where the two stations would be dug out. |
|
|
| (561909) | |
Re: Fulton Street J/M Station |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:58:54 2008, in response to Re: Fulton Street J/M Station, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Jan 30 14:25:11 2008. Nothing is ever cheap in NY. The ramp near Frankfort would have to be underpinned or perhaps rebuilt. The (T) would merge into the (J/Z) right around Spruce. |
|
|
| (561910) | |
Re: Fulton Street J/M Station |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 05:03:26 2008, in response to Re: Fulton Street J/M Station, posted by Grand concourse on Wed Jan 30 19:04:06 2008. With three services operating on the Lower SAS, the (T) could continue into Nassau St/Montague/Brooklyn while the Bronx service (U) and the Queens service (Y) could go to Brooklyn via a new Water St/Governors Island tunnel. |
|
|
| (561912) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 05:10:38 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:50:19 2008. So what. South Ferry is 0' away from South Ferry. SIers will walk to Bowling Green before they go to Hanover Square. |
|
|
| (561913) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 05:10:51 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:48:01 2008. Good point:You bring up another one as well, and that is, will they even be able to go with deep tunnel boring at Water Street, given they will be very close to the East River when they that far down? That to me is being totally overlooked. Just another reason why the Nassau Street connection is a better option, though I still would look at doing it at the end of phase 3 and have the SAS join the Nassau Street line at either The Bowery or Canal Street station. Sure, they may have to dance around the African Burial Grounds on the Nassau Street Line, but that is something that may have to be done anyway regardless of any SAS line going through Nassau in order to lengthen those stations for Broadway Brooklyn trains to be extended to 10 cars. |
|
|
| (561914) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 05:21:49 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 19:45:50 2008. Assuming both the Nassau Street connection and Water Street segments are built, only one SAS line would go via Nassau to Brooklyn. The other would go to Water Street. It would only be if there were a G.O. that forced the Q train to remain on 2nd Avenue that there would be more than one line to 2nd Avenue.As others who noted this have said, if this is done, it would most likely be where the T train would run 125th/Lex to Bay Parkway (the T reassuming it's old route in Brooklyn) via Nassau/Montauge, while a second SAS line (U/Y/etc.) OR a split of the T goes to Water Street (the U/Y would be mainly for some sort of a Bronx branch of the SAS that likely would take a re-built version of the former Bronx 3rd Avenue El, in The Bronx as either a rebuilt El or new subway). |
|
|
| (561915) | |
Re: Fulton Street J/M Station |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 05:25:52 2008, in response to Re: Fulton Street J/M Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:58:54 2008. Sounds about right.Spruce is about as far north as Nassau Street goes, and is probably where the J/M/Z trains currently go to two levels for the Fulton Street station. |
|
|
| (561937) | |
Re: SAS/four tracks/to Brooklyn and Queens |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 07:25:34 2008, in response to Re: SAS/four tracks/to Brooklyn and Queens, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 30 01:45:14 2008. I would have express stops only at 34th, 42nd and 72nd (or 86th). A Bronx SAS would make a stop at 125/2 too. |
|
|
| (561943) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 07:45:55 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 05:10:51 2008. I don't think that the proximity to the river will be much of an issue on Water St. The (1) runs much closer to the water from Houston St to SF and along Bway from 96th to 157th, especially before BPC was built but the cut-and-cover sections for stations along Water St will make for some interesting findings. |
|
|
| (561946) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 07:54:38 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 05:10:38 2008. Exactly:SI'ers would take whatever subway line they are closest to, which is why I would both consider once the Water Street part of the SAS is built moving the terminal to South Ferry from Hanover Square, while at the same time also keeping the current SF station open once the 1 moves to the new terminal, with the current SF station mainly used as a terminal for the 5 train when it does not go to Brooklyn (and for a revived shuttle between SF and Bowling Green during rush hours and for the 6 train, extended from Brooklyn Bridge during overnight hours). If SI'ers want terminals for the trains under the SI Ferry, then they should be built if at all possible. |
|
|
| (562139) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 17:47:34 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 30 21:59:27 2008. Russ doesn't seem get the message. |
|
|
| (562144) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 17:54:08 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:48:01 2008. *Cough cough*What a hassle that would be done to create a "superior" subway line segment. |
|
|
| (562168) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:25:16 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 04:48:01 2008. I think that you should propose to the MTA that they should build a terminal at Chatham Square. What do you suppose their reaction will be? |
|
|
| (562182) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 18:48:44 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Wed Jan 30 22:04:46 2008. First of all, the Nassau St Line has 4 tracks between Bowery and Chambers of which a pair is currently disused.And that's why this alignment does not work. The 4 tracks are only between those stations. Which brings me back to my point that neither you, nor anyone else who advocates the Nassau St alignment will address. As a Nassau St alignment approaches Brooklyn, the capacity shrinks. It first shrinks when it moves south of Chambers. It shrinks again when it merges with the R at the Montague St Tunnel. It forces at least one route to terminate outside of the Financial District Terminate the J at Chambers during middays and weekends. There will be more patrons from Brooklyn to Midtown and the UES rather than to Brooklyn (Williamsburg) and Queens. There might be some patrons, but over all, we could do with the J being terminated at Chambers. Water St. is in the Financial District. Did you ever wonder what those 50 story office buildings to the east - that's right, east - of Water St. are? They are overwhelmingly occupied by the financial services sector. Did you wonder what all the office buildings, the banks and stock exchanges near the Wall Street area and the WTC area do? Well the FEIS says that a Water St alignment will provide greater relief. Do you have any proof that this is not correct? That's because the Phase 4 infrastructure has not been installed yet. The reason we are able to make assumptions about the Nassau connection is because there is already infrastructure there and that it will serve the communities better. By the way, are you trying to argue that a certain line is still "superior" over another? There is no superiority when it comes to the subways that are unbuilt. |
|
|
| (562183) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:48:58 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 31 05:10:38 2008. SIers will walk to Bowling Green before they go to Hanover Square.The southern most entrance to the Hanover Square station is about as close to South Ferry as the closest Bowling Green entrance is. This would attract more riders than a Nassau St alignment. Also, the Hanover Square station will be at Wall St. Having one more station 720' away is ridiculous. For less money than the cost of that station, a pedestrian tunnel from South Ferry could be built to the Coenties Slip entrance of the Hanover Sq station. |
|
|
| (562184) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:53:11 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 18:48:44 2008. You still haven't addressed the problem of capacity that shrinks south of Chambers. It is the area south of Chambers where most people heading into Lower Manhattan want to go. All you are suggesting is that the J terminate outside of the Financial District. That doesn't solve the capacity problem. It just shifts it around. |
|
|
| (562187) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:58:43 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 05:21:49 2008. Assuming both the Nassau Street connection and Water Street segments are built,Why would you assume that? $4 billion for one, and $4 billion for the other. For that money, Water St and a tunnel to Brooklyn could probably be built. In addition, why would the MTA spend $4 billion on a redundant alignment when other parts of the city need subways? Are we to ignore the needs of SE Queens? Forget ever building a subway to Staten Island? What about MTA projects outside of the City? A new Tappan Zee bridge is more important than a second redundant Lower Manhattan alignment for the SAS. The idea that an SAS Nassau St connection and a Water St alignment will both be built in our lifetimes, with out some breakthrough in construction techniques, completely ignores all economic realties. |
|
|
| (562202) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 19:42:47 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 17:47:34 2008. Russ doesn't seem get the message.Which message? That Water St provides more relief for the Lex than Nassau St? That Nassau only has superior capacity at stations outside the Financial District, but provides for less capacity inside it where the capacity is in far greater need? That both alignments will never be built? I get the message. I used to prefer the Nassau St alignment. Then I read the FEIS, and I still wanted Nassau to be better, but the facts speak loud and clear. Now, you can get a message, or you can actually take the time to read the message. The choice is yours. |
|
|
| (562203) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:46:22 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 19:42:47 2008. It is too long.Why don't you summarize it since you actually bothered to read the entire FEIS. Why don't you tell me what is on the second paragraph of Page 53? |
|
|
| (562204) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:48:09 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 19:42:47 2008. And by the way... the message is about you not understanding that the short term option will be the Nassau plan.By the way, there are a lot of digs on Water Street. Don't forget utility relocation. |
|
|
| (562205) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:48:54 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:53:11 2008. By the way, are you trying to argue that a certain line is still "superior" over another? There is no superiority when it comes to the subways that are unbuilt.You haven't answered the question yet. |
|
|
| (562209) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:51:52 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:58:43 2008. A new Tappan Zee bridge is more important than a second redundant Lower Manhattan alignment for the SAS.Why do you call the Nassau alignment redundant? Can you define what redundant means? |
|
|
| (562217) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:02:39 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:46:22 2008. It is too long.It is only 74 pages long, and it is not the full FEIS . That's just the summary. Why don't you summarize it since you actually bothered to read the entire FEIS. That is the summary. Happy reading! Why don't you tell me what is on the second paragraph of Page 53? It is part of a cost-benefit analysis that concludes with Water St being the clearly superior alignment. |
|
|
| (562219) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:03:49 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:48:09 2008. And by the way... the message is about you not understanding that the short term option will be the Nassau plan.Do you have any idea how absurd that is? "We don't want to wait for Phase 4 to be built, so we'll build the other Phase 4 option." Like billions of dollars are just lying around for "short term options." |
|
|
| (562222) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:10:38 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 19:51:52 2008. American Heritage Dictionaryre dun dant (rĭ-dŭn'dənt) Pronunciation Key adj. 1. Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous. 2. Needlessly wordy or repetitive in expression: a student paper filled with redundant phrases. 3. Of or relating to linguistic redundancy. 4. Chiefly British Dismissed or laid off from work, as for being no longer needed. 5. Electronics Of or involving redundancy in electronic equipment. 6. Of or involving redundancy in the transmission of messages. Yup, that pretty much describes building two Lower Manhattan lines for the SAS when only one is needed. |
|
|
| (562225) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:12:07 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:02:39 2008. Can you do the same with the Bible? |
|
|
| (562229) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:18:04 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:12:07 2008. If you show me a 74 page summary of the Bible on the web, I'll be more than happy to post a link of it for you. |
|
|
| (562230) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:18:54 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:10:38 2008. The Nassau Line is not superfluous according to Definition 1It is not needlessly or repetitive because they are on totally different alignments serving dissimilar purposes It does not pertain to any linguistic redundancy Def 4 is invalid because we are in America and also because both segments are not built yet so you can't say one is no longer needed because it was never materialized. We are talking about segments not electronics. We will get to electronics when we have to deal with lighting, the TBM or any necessary electrical works. As I said before, the lines serve dissimilar purposes. One will allow the users to get into Bensonhurst/Gravesend while the other just dead ends around a thousand feet from a transit hub (namely the SI Ferry Terminal). Even though the Water St segment may reach Staten Island or connect with the A, it will not be materialized provided that the MTA still keeps up with its fiscal problems. We just don't have enough money right now to dig ourselves another ditch to link with the unlinked-by-train borough of Staten Island. So while work is being done in the Upper East Side, we can always re-adjust plans so that riders could at least get on a one seat ride into Brooklyn. Please take into account that our ideas are generated assuming that the M will merge with the V line. |
|
|
| (562231) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:19:25 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:18:04 2008. How about you summarizing the Bible? |
|
|
| (562235) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:27:17 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:18:54 2008. Building both segments would cost at least an extra $4 Billion. If that extra money will be available, then Water St plus a tunnel to Brooklyn can be built. This, unlike the Nassau St alignment, allows two SAS routes plus the J (assuming that the M is merged with the V) plus the R to all reach Brooklyn. If Nassau is built, Only two routes can travel south of Chambers. Entering the Montague St. tunnel, only two lines can proceed.I reject the notion that the SAS will get two Phase 4s built. I would benefit from this more than most because I live between the Seaport and Chambers, but I would never advocate for this to come to pass because even if it was politically possible, it would deprive other important projects of billions of dollars. |
|
|
| (562236) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:29:45 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:19:25 2008. How about taking an hour to read a 74 page document? |
|
|
| (562237) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:32:06 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:03:49 2008. I think you being persistent about having only ONE option that will take another 10 years to materialize provided there is no delays in terms of construction, that the economy is good and that things are on time.How about think about the demand for train service between Brooklyn and Manhattan. True we do need a corridor on Water Street, but construction will probably be delayed. And about the 2014 completion date of Phase 1, I believe 2020 would be more likely. The Water Street Plan may benefit users and may provide a foundation for train service to Staten Island and Brooklyn, but it will take years to come for the T line to actually reach Staten Island or Brooklyn. Things don't happen in a snap. We could just truncate the J line on the western pair of tracks at Chambers Street, truncate the L at Atlantic during rush hours and send the Z from Chambers to Canarsie. And since the stations along that line handled 8 car 67 foot trains, which translates as a 536 foot train. So a minor extension to the ends won't hurt that much than to have crews dig up Water Street, find the artifacts, build entirely new stations, new infrastructure ... The Water Street alignment will be built... but we need a short term plan. Look, think of a bull's eye: we are trying to get to the middle, which is "your preferred option". That is our goal. We will keep the connection running until the Phase 4 opens, and when it does we can let the trains run on Water. The connection will allow a rush hour service and perhaps for service disruptions. |
|
|
| (562239) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:35:37 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:27:17 2008. How are you so sure about the price tag.The FTC was registered to be a quarter of a billion and now its over a billion. There is no 2 Phase 4s. I am advocating that the Nassau is only a short term plan rather to have the trains dead end at Houston. It will be Phase 3 rather than 4. The T will replace the need of the extended J when Phase 3 and the connection is built. The Brooklyn people wanted to head to areas in Manhattan and the Lower Manhattan people wanted to head out in to other areas. This is already shown in the M line. That is why we are sending it up the 6th Ave Line. |
|
|
| (562240) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:36:52 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:29:45 2008. How about taking an hour to catch up on some sleep? |
|
|
| (562244) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 31 20:49:57 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:29:45 2008. I've seen this pattern before. It's most likely not worth wasting your time. |
|
|
| (562329) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jan 31 23:20:03 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 20:32:06 2008. And there is nothing that says once Water Street is built we can't run BOTH the Water Street branch AND the Nassau branch full time.The Water Street branch is needed and should be built, but the fact is, if the Nassau connect can be included as part of phase 3, which will be ready several years before phase 4 can be completed, it makes sense to build that connection as it will see a lot of daily usage even after the Water Street branch is ready. |
|
|
| (562339) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Grand concourse on Thu Jan 31 23:38:26 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 20:03:49 2008. I would like to know how a new river tunnel to Brooklyn plus this Water St segment would cost under $4 billion.Even if Nassau+SAS is around $4 billion, it would still save some $ billion[s] on not having to build a new East River tunnel. I see Water St working only if it is somehow connected to the Montegue tunnel. |
|
|
| (562401) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 1 01:19:41 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:25:16 2008. Paired with a Nassau St Connection it would get wide public support from Wall Street, UESers and Brooklynites. Phase IV is so far away that the public has not given it too much thought yet. |
|
|
| (562403) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 1 01:22:35 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by R160 8818 on Thu Jan 31 17:54:08 2008. Well, we can keep it simple and build a shuttle from 125th/Park to Hanover Sq. Oh wait...that's the planned SAS. |
|
|
| (562405) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 1 01:26:12 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:48:58 2008. That's still more walking to the actual train platform then Bowling Green regardless of where the entrances are placed. |
|
|
| (562452) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 1 04:35:30 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:58:43 2008. For that money, Water St and a tunnel to Brooklyn could probably be built. In addition, why would the MTA spend $4 billion on a redundant alignment when other parts of the city need subways?So the Christie St Connection for the (B/D) to the Manny B and to South Brooklyn was reduntant because it uses pre-existing BMT infrustructure? They could have sent the (B/D) down to Water St after all. |
|
|
| (562453) | |
Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 1 04:40:59 2008, in response to Re: SAS: Water vs. Nassau Street and M-V Combo, posted by SMAZ on Fri Feb 1 01:26:12 2008. Which is why I would look at moving the stop to South Ferry if it appeases SI'ers. |
|
|
| (562454) | |
Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 1 04:57:42 2008, in response to Re: SAS Phase 4: Water Street/Nassau Street, posted by Russ on Thu Jan 31 18:53:11 2008. Well:The way I would do it, the J would NOT terminate at Chambers, but at Broad at ALL TIMES, including weekends while the T (SAS) also runs 24/7 to Bay Parkway (The M by this point would likely be combined with the V train as a 6th avenue line). That would take care of the major issue of the financial district, especially since sending the T via Nassau also benefits those who work at the Manhattan Courts and DA's Office if it connects before the Canal Street stop, which as noted is also a major hub. There would be many more transfer points at Canal than at Grand that would be practical to the SAS along with Fulton Street of course. This would be one branch of the SAS that would be ready earlier, the other would be the Water Street branch that would not have to be rushed if the Nassau Street connection were included with Phase 3. |
|
|
|
Page 18 of 20 |
||
