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| Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently (554375) | |
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| (556173) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 10:44:30 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by trains61 on Sat Jan 19 08:57:51 2008. "Even in this thread people readily admit that pax jump off of the locals to the express. How would you know anyway? What is your proof?"Several years riding Queens Blvd., including using various trains to get to Manhattan for a date Friday or Saturday night. Not only was the train full, but the Q46 bus that brought me to Kew Gardens was full too. I used that experience to persuade MTA to implement certain details of the 63rd St service plan. You are correct about the preference for the express; however, what you forget is that at local stops, the passengers have to get on the local first. "I used the line on a regular basis, in both directions during the evening." If you did ride, you were counting subway car serial numbers and worrying about which window looked different on an R46 vs. an R32, and which rollsign was wrong. I'd be surprised if you could recall anyone riding in the car with you. "...point was about the principles of dispatching and scheduling" Which the TA does very well and you don't do at all. On the other hand, you probably take very good pictures of the trains, and there are websites like nycsubway.org where you can be productive. If you want to know about dispatch and scheduling then go to school and educate yourself. That's not something you can learn by railfanning. "The abundance of office professionals in the MTA as opposed to hourlies is part of the problem." Actually, that's just more foaming. As one example, the director of public affairs lost most of his office staff to budget cuts in the last few years. Because MTA has to produce reams of paper, demanded by state and federal governments to justify the funding it gets, it has to use somebody to generate that. So it can keep people in house, or hire consultants at triple the price. Sometimes it does both. There is some waste there and there are people in the building who who their jobs to a politician or a favored agency head, but you don't know who they are or why, so it's pointless for you to whine about it. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 10:46:01 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 06:13:11 2008. To each his/her own. I haven't seen the etiquette police make any arrests over it. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 10:48:01 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 19 02:57:23 2008. It's perfectly fine for Mr. "Jones" to advocate for expanded G service even if he doesn't live along the line. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 10:53:07 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 19 03:15:06 2008. True.Queens had the highest increase in population of the subway-served boroughs in the last 40-50 years and the least subway miles. There have been some improvements in service but a lot more is needed. The 7 extension toJavits will give Queens residets direct access to Javits and its part of the Far West Side, and the SAS will give UES residents a less crowded transfer to reach Queens (restaurants, the stadiums, their friends etc.) but more subway miles in Queens are needed. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Eric B on Sat Jan 19 11:08:52 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 08:30:06 2008. The exception to that is the Bronx, which sees Manhattan as simply "downtown" (even uptown Manhattan!)This probably stems from the Bronx becoming like an extension of Manhattan; both in the street numbering system, and in the fact that the trains going towards Manhattan are all "downtown" bound. Also, the other boroughs can all look across the water and see the "city" skyline (either midtown or downtown, depending on which borough), so that is "the city" to them, while the Bronx is too far uptown to have that same kind of view; again being more like a northward extension of that "city" instead. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jan 19 11:17:36 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 14:03:30 2008. Ah, now I know why you said that. It's on Meserole Avenue, not Street.And while I may not have been your average tourist, I rode the Queens Blvd portion of the G during my first visit to NYC but didn't ride the L until I started living here. View Larger Map |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 11:33:42 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 18 03:43:55 2008. I came up with that idea about 15 years ago, though I had the G using a tunnel between Brooklyn and Manhattan at 28th St, the G running from Greenpoint Ave to a station at 34th/2nd. Today I actually think it's a horrible idea because it removes many transfer options in favor of a Manhattan alignment which would not be beneficial to most Crosstown riders. I still like my idea for a 23rd St. subway connecting the G to every north/south line in Manhattan (even if it's a local station at every transfer). |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jan 19 11:53:45 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 19 02:57:23 2008. Northern Park Slope/Prospect Heights area, I take the (G) instead of the (2), (3) because I have to pick up/drop off a relative at their school near the Flushing Avenue station. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 12:05:47 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jan 16 19:35:06 2008. I know this is heresy, but I think the Fulton St. subway serves people better than the Fulton St. el did. I can see a trip from Lefferts taking an additional 10 minutes, due to the sharp curves east of Atlantic Ave. I agree the Concourse line is too close to the Jerome Ave IRT, I'd have built it under Webster Ave and I'd have connected the post WWII 3rd Ave el above Fordham to it in the 1950's. Some things I'd have done but which were not in any plan: - Connect the IRT Broadway line into the New York Central Getty Square branch, which would provide subway service directly to Yonkers - Built a flying junction north of Jay St. so that both 6th and 8th Ave services could run to either the Culver or Fulton St lines (like at 59th St) - Connect the Crosstown line to the Court St. stub so that it doesn't crowd the Smith St. IND - Convert the Queens Blvd line to a 6 track subway line between Kew Gardens (the terminal for all locals) and 36th St with a major express station at Woodhaven Blvd where the Rockaway line would merge. Roosevelt Ave would be a minor express station where only 4 of the 6 tracks would be served. Local stations would be served by Crosstown and 53rd/6th Ave (current V) trains, the expresses would run from 8th Ave, 6th Ave and Broadway. One of these lines would branch off to run to Rockaway (probably the F) - Connect the SIR to lower Manhattan with a direct tunnel via Governer's Island. Trains would then run north either via the West Side IRT or the Broadway BMT - Route the Flushing line to Whitestone via the old LIRR branch, though not all the way to it's former terminal - Replace the Manhattan bridge tracks with tunnels, further south so that the first express stop on the Broadway line would be City Hall (upper level, lower level would be for the locals). The trains which would have run on the north side tracks would feed the SAS and the first stop on that in Manhattan would be Chatham Sq - Extend the Astoria line to Laguardia - Connect the Fulton St. IND to the Jamaica Ave el near Cypress Hills (extending the line under Fulton from ENY). A trains would run from Inwood to Jamaica/180th St - Extend the New Lots IRT east to Euclid Ave and then north to connect to the former BMT el. IRT service would then run to Lefferts Blvd |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 12:11:50 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 12:05:47 2008. Some very nice ideas there."I agree the Concourse line is too close to the Jerome Ave IRT, I'd have built it under Webster Ave and I'd have connected the post WWII 3rd Ave el above Fordham to it in the 1950's. " Concourse is a "main drag" so it's good to have a subway under it. But then Wenster Av is also a good-for-subway street so I can fault you for your choice. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 12:13:49 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 23:35:51 2008. "But that's the way it is..... "As Bruce Hornsby sings, "Some things will never change..." |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 12:26:07 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 19 02:57:23 2008. I myself never lived along the G line, but lived along the L, and used the G often back then for a few years because of it's connection at Lorimer-Metropolitan, in both directions, usually down to South Brooklyn, but also occasionally to Queens. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Fred G on Sat Jan 19 12:30:10 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by trains61 on Sat Jan 19 09:04:54 2008. Hahaha!! I'm looking forward to "the discount" lol.your pal, Fred |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by Hoghead on Sat Jan 19 14:14:16 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 05:54:13 2008. There already is an H train--the Broad Channel to Rockaway Park shuttle. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 15:08:40 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 12:05:47 2008. I know this is heresy, but I think the Fulton St. subway serves people better than the Fulton St. el did. I can see a trip from Lefferts taking an additional 10 minutes, due to the sharp curves east of Atlantic Ave.Oh don't get me wrong, the Fulton Subway is far superior to the El it replaced, that's not even a question. My gripe is though that that money should have been spent on expanding the systme outside what it was, not replacing perfectly good el structure, even if it may save 10 minutes. If that had not been done, not only would we have a route on Fulton St, but perhaps an expanded line somewhere where currently there is no service at all. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by trains61 on Sat Jan 19 15:23:33 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 10:44:30 2008. If you did ride, you were counting subway car serial numbers and worrying about which window looked different on an R46 vs. an R32, and which rollsign was wrong. I'd be surprised if you could recall anyone riding in the car with you.For the record, I have never taken a picture of a subway car in my life nor recorded a serial number of one. You must have me confused with another poster. But quite often you are confused or misinformed it seems. Which the TA does very well and you don't do at all. On the other hand, you probably take very good pictures of the trains, and there are websites like nycsubway.org where you can be productive. If you want to know about dispatch and scheduling then go to school and educate yourself. That's not something you can learn by railfanning. See above. Um yeah, Like dispatching and scheduling were prerequistes in the curriculum for med school. Suggest the All Knowing Dr. Ron heed is own advice. This is something you don`t learn on a Msg Board or Med School. "Heal thyself oh witless one." Actually, that's just more foaming. As one example, the director of public affairs lost most of his office staff to budget cuts in the last few years. Because MTA has to produce reams of paper, demanded by state and federal governments to justify the funding it gets, it has to use somebody to generate that. So it can keep people in house, or hire consultants at triple the price. Sometimes it does both. There is some waste there and there are people in the building who who their jobs to a politician or a favored agency head, but you don't know who they are or why, so it's pointless for you to whine about it. Oh my Pot=Kettle, as far has the foaming goes. You have your opinion I have mine. Both are like orifices that need to be wiped occasionally. Unless you work as a consultant for the MTA (which you don`t) your statements are pure conjecture and rhetoric. You are assuming you know what really goes on and we know what happens when the good doctor assumes... Several years riding Queens Blvd., including using various trains to get to Manhattan for a date Friday or Saturday night. Not only was the train full, but the Q46 bus that brought me to Kew Gardens was full too. I used that experience to persuade MTA to implement certain details of the 63rd St service plan. Come, come now Doc, you were in K.C. when the V line was implemented so your knowledge of the lines pax patterns are again conjecture at the very best. I used the G line five days a week if not more, inclusive of Friday and Saturday nights. Lets leave this issue to people that have to actually use the services NOW Aren`t we full of ourselves today. Ron singlehandedly persuaded the MTA to implement certain detail of the 63rd St. service plan. Never mind the extensive studies that were done by the MTA(which you don`t work for nor consult with) If we looked Pomposity up in the dictionary I`m sure we would see a picture of you. As stated in a previous response, "For someone who currently resides in K.C. you are awfully involved in matter that concern NYC transit." Who indeed is the FOAMER here? I on the other hand don`t claim to know or comment on every aspect of just about every thread on Subchat/Subtalk. Who indeed is the Foamer? |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:09:24 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 15:08:40 2008. The public sometimes asks for Els to be removed. Sometimes that's what you have to do. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:18:50 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by trains61 on Sat Jan 19 15:23:33 2008. "For the record, I have never taken a picture of a subway car in my life nor recorded a serial number of one."Only because you didn't take the cover off your camera lens. "You must have me confused with another poster." No, I have you pegged right. You're a wanna-be train dispatcher, wanna-be train operator, wanna-be transit head. But why limit yourself to foaming here if you want to do it for real? Put your hurt feelings aside, get some real education and join the transit authority. Then I'll be reading about you in the newspapers. I might even write you a letter suggesting some improvement. "Like dispatching and scheduling were prerequistes in the curriculum for med school" You're the one pretending to be a scheduler and dispatcher. By the way, I took enough computer science and pattern-solving courses at the University of California that I know what the MTA dispatchers are up against. After they tackle that, they then turn to the Public Affairs Department, now largely denuded of people, to handle the spittle you leave all over the seats at public meetings. "Come, come now Doc, you were in K.C. when the V line was implemented" Actually, no. I was in New York until mid 2001, and was in close touch with MTA and attended and spoke at the hearings when the V service alternatives were debated. After that I was in Philadelphia, a very short ride away. I only got to Kansas City in 2003. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 19 16:41:26 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:09:24 2008. and with "proper guidance" the public can be portrayed as demanding almost anything the pols have already decided in their well bribed wisdom. cynical? no long time observation. Sadly in the case of BART to SFO, a local pol got a referendum passed demanding direct trackage into a single terminal of the airport rather than a transfer station with both Caltrain and and the airport circulator. Net result now Caltrain riders must transfer TWICE to get to/from the airport and three times if not using the International terminal. Compare to Airtrain @ JFK. So much for the public asks. As to the original issue, IMHO the real answer is build the ENTIRE SECOND SYSTEM. shouldn't cost but a couple months of quagmire $$ |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:44:42 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 19 16:41:26 2008. "Sadly in the case of BART to SFO, a local pol got a referendum passed demanding direct trackage into a single terminal of the airport rather than a transfer station with both Caltrain and and the airport circulator. "Life is not perfect. Yu should spend a few months in Kansas City and see how phucked up transit politics are here. But that doesn't mean thecitizenry get a pass, that is, accept no responsibility for the way they vote or what they ask for. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 19 16:50:03 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:44:42 2008. No, I spent a bit less than 24 hrs there 40 plus years ago, nice place to visit, not fit to live in. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 17:00:20 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Jan 16 19:20:30 2008. As far as the Crosstown Line goes - the original BMT plan for the line was not bad:
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 19 18:22:36 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 06:09:21 2008. I agree. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 18:24:07 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 06:09:21 2008. An interesting idea by you. I like your sense of design... |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 18:35:36 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 15:08:40 2008. Oh don't get me wrong, the Fulton Subway is far superior to the El it replaced, that's not even a question. My gripe is though that that money should have been spent on expanding the systme outside what it was, not replacing perfectly good el structure, even if it may save 10 minutes. If that had not been done, not only would we have a route on Fulton St, but perhaps an expanded line somewhere where currently there is no service at all.If the El were still up, it would probably be operated as separate Park Row - Atlantic Av and 14/8 - Lefferts services (the latter helpfully dealing with the imbalance of ridership between the two halves of the Canarsie Line too). |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 19 18:40:59 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 11:33:42 2008. It's not a bad idea but connecting it to an existing river tunnel would be a lot cheaper. |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 19 18:43:58 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by Hoghead on Sat Jan 19 14:14:16 2008. Although the timetable designation in the schedule office is called "H" I believe that the Rock Pk shuttle trains carry the designation "S." |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 18:48:50 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 18:35:36 2008. If that El were still up I'd turn it into a park - Brooklyn's version of High Line Park.Just kidding... |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by Hoghead on Sat Jan 19 18:53:47 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 19 18:43:58 2008. Rockaway park shuttle trains do carry the designation S. So do the Times Square Shuttle and the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.Times Square Trains are the 0 (zero) trains in scheduling. Broad Channel to Rockaway Park are H. Franklin is S in scheduling. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 19 18:58:27 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 19 12:05:47 2008. Connect the Crosstown line to the Court St. stub so that it doesn't crowd the Smith St. INDWould this be the (G) train or some new service along the lines of my proposed (H) train? |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 18:59:17 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 08:30:06 2008. I have some pictures of the old BMT signs - they had many signs in Brooklyn stations that simply read "TO CITY" and "FROM CITY".Or the real classic:  (For anyone who doesn't know, this points to the southbound platform at 45th St station on the R.) |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 19 19:00:06 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by Hoghead on Sat Jan 19 18:53:47 2008. There was a time in the early days of the IND when an (HH) train went to the Court St (Transit Museum) terminal. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 19:05:25 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jan 19 11:17:36 2008. Incidentally, was the westernmost part of Calyer St originally called something beginning with P? |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 19:22:36 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 17:00:20 2008. Court House Sq would have been an *awesome* photo location... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Jan 19 19:30:28 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jan 19 01:19:10 2008. I don't believe the MTA has ever stated such. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:31:18 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:09:24 2008. Yes, that is true, and all the el replacement in Manhattan was a good thing. In the case of Fulton St, I don't believe the public wanted it removed. Hylan was a known hater of the BMT, and he did all he could to try and pull the last life out of them, so it's no surprise he went after one of the BMT's mainlines. And yes, I acknowledged, the Fulton Subway was a precurser to a grand IND Second system that never came. But in hindsight, it would have been money well spent had they expanded off the existing systen (which obviously the IND didn't own yet, but we are talking in hindsight) than replacing operating system. |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:36:12 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jan 19 19:00:06 2008. Originally, as deisgned, the Court St station was meant to be a terminal for the Fulton St locals. Of course, they were supposed to go much further east than it was built, but of course, WWII stopped the construction, as we all know. Service could only run as far as Rockaway Ave at the time of the war, and all the trains wound up going to Manhattan when they began service. Had it not been for WWII, and work on the Fulton Subway eastward would have continued way out towards Eastern Queens as it was meant to, the HH would have been the Fulton Local running between that Eastern Terminal, stopping at all the local station (like 76th St, haha), and terminating at Court St. THAT was the original design, but that design never came to fruit. I believe Court St never was served by anything more than the Court St Shuttle, the HH. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:39:56 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 17:00:20 2008. Was that supposed to be an El or a subway? If an el, that would have been an interesting crossover at Hewes St station. I assume, Hewes St instead of Marcy may have become the Express station, and it may have crossed over the Broadway El like the Myrtle El did at Myrtle and Broadway. I wonder if there was to be a track connection. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:43:34 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 18:35:36 2008. I would assume the Fulton El would have instead been connected to the Cranberry tube. As it was, until they ran out of money, the BMT was supposed to connect the Fulton El via the Ashland Place connection to I think the Montague Tunnel.Either way, it would have been interesting had it survived. The dual contract portions of the line were identically rebuilt and looked like the Broadway and Jamaica Els. The unrebuilt parts would have had to have been strengthened of course, and that was the section between Atlantic Ave on the L and Grant Ave, and part of the el east of Franklin. Interestingly, had the BMT not ran out of money, the Fulton El route would have fed into the Montague tunnel (which even to this day is underused), and probably have run up Broadway (but could have ran on Nassau too). |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 20:43:51 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:39:56 2008. It was originally proposed as an El. The 14th Street Line was also originally supposed to be an El once it got to Brooklyn but was changed to a subway due to political pressure. If this line had actually been built it may also have gone underground for some of its route. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 20:46:38 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:39:56 2008. Hewes St instead of Marcy may have become the Express station,Almost missed that ;-) It was the MTA that turned Marcy into an "express station" by moving the crossovers.. In the BMT days it was a local station too... |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 21:02:08 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 20:43:34 2008. The explanation for the BMT not building the Ashland Place Connection was not necessarily financial. BMT Chairman Gerhard Dahl wrote in 1924:"The third plank relates to the proposed connection between the Fulton Street "L" and the Fourth Avenue system at Ashland Place. The B. M. T. is entirely willing to sign a contract for the Ashland Place Connection as soon as it has definite and tangible assurance that the City will construct and complete the 14th Street- Eastern arid the Nassau Street Lines." [...] Now, the important fact about this situation and the connecting link between Ashland Place and the Nassau-Broad Street Extension is that Contract 4 provided that these two tracks instead of forming a dam at Chambers Street should continue down Nassau and Broad Streets -to a connection with the Whitehall-Montague tunnel and with the extra tracks in Broad Street for a terminal. This was an integral part of the system planned for operation by the Brooklyn Company so as to provide for double loop operation via Manhattan Bridge and the tunnel. It's absence today constitutes serious limitation on the capacity of the lines already built in Brooklyn and now in operation. It renders the two south tracks on Manhattan Bridge practically use less. It limits the number of trains through DeKalb Avenue, for the sixteen tracks of the various branches feeding into this station have, as a practical matter, only four tracks outlet to Manhattan. This in turn limits the number of trains and increases the interval between trains on the various branches. With these conditions existing it would only multiply the congestion and the blockades to attempt to route additional trains via Ashland Place into DeKalb Avenue. The completion and operation of the Nassau Street Line by allowing the use of the two south tracks on Manhattan bridge and by the additional tracks on Broad Street would provide for an increase of approximately 50 per cent more trains through DeKalb Avenue station. A 50 per cent increase in service through DeKalb Avenue would be a Godsend not only to the people of Central Brooklyn and East New York and to the people who desire the Ashland Place Connection, but to the whole of South Brooklyn." The BMT proposed to build the Ashland Place connection in 1924 with its own funds but for the reasons stated above would not proceed unless the city completed the Nassau Loop which it had agreed to in the Dual Contracts. The city delayed opening the Nassau Loop till 1931 - by that time the BMT was in negotiations to sell its system to the city and was no longer interested in spending any more money on something it would be giving up anyway. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Eric B on Sat Jan 19 21:13:42 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 17:00:20 2008. Wow! I had never seen this map before, and always wondered what the exact route of the crosstown would be! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jan 19 21:20:07 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jan 19 19:05:25 2008. And Greenpoint Ave. something that started with an L? I don't know... |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 21:26:04 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Eric B on Sat Jan 19 21:13:42 2008. I only wish I could find a map showing where the BMT extension to the upper west side was supposed to run.... |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 23:02:34 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 20:43:51 2008. Yes, the Canarsie line was supposed to be subway only as far as Montrose Ave. From Morgan Ave to Broadway Junction, it was supposed to be on an el, but early form NIMBY's in Bushwick had the plan changed to the subway we know. In the plan for the El, the Jefferson St station was supposed to be at Flushing Ave, otherwise the line was to follow the same route, although on an el. |
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Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 19 23:06:35 2008, in response to Re: Design your own IND Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by BMTLines on Sat Jan 19 20:46:38 2008. I know. Actually, the reason Marcy Ave was never rebuilt when the rest of the Broadway El was rebuilt under dual contracts (Marcy was the only side platform station on the original 1888 el), because March was supposed to be replaced with an express station similar to Broadway Junction and Myrtle at Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. There was a dispute between who was to pay for it though, the city or the BMT, and it wound up never being built, and Marcy remained original unimproved el until the early 1980's when it was renovated.Yes, the switches were moved (some time before that of course) to allow it to become an express station, which makes more sense. But the reason it was a local station so long was because of that dispute in the 1910's. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jan 20 00:02:35 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by R30A on Sat Jan 19 19:30:28 2008. Why would the MTA state such? |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by trains61 on Sun Jan 20 00:03:40 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Jan 19 16:18:50 2008. Sorry Doc wrong again, I`m quite set in my career in the Aviation field and was involved in actual dispatching at the early age of 18. This was the real deal not computer simulations in a classroom environment.Once again the great Doc Ron does not know what he is talking about and has made assumptions about a person he knows nothing about. My feelings are not hurt in the least. I`m just setting the record straight and contributing opinions to a Msg. Board. From your responses to EVERY thread and subject it is clear who the realFOAMER is. Now go on and keep talking to yourself, change the thread title, offer career advise, call names and all the other little annoying things you do when someone stands up to or has a differing opinion/perspective you petulant little child of a man. I bid you good day you-wanna-be-know-it-all. Who`s done everything, knows it all and attended every class ever given since college was invented. How does your head contain and retain all of that knowledge(Rhetorical question)? But you`ll prove your the foamer once again to get in the last word, won`t you Doc?...... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 20 00:09:17 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by trains61 on Sun Jan 20 00:03:40 2008. If you want to do something about him, then don't reply to any of his posts. If everyone stopped replying to his posts, he would go away or change his ways, as he would finally realize that his actions here are inappropriate and unappreciated. |
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