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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 20:23:13 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 20:22:34 2008. When they keep trains going to Forest Hills they will :-) |
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| (555467) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 20:27:49 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 20:23:13 2008. You won't care, because after the QB riders lynch you for doing it you won't be riding anymore anyway. :0) |
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| (555472) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 20:31:18 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 20:27:49 2008. I'll ride in in spirit :-) |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 20:55:12 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 20:31:18 2008. LOL! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 22:48:18 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 17 20:03:01 2008. Whenever he says "a lot of" or "lots of" or "the many people", it usually means there aren't too many of them. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Jan 17 22:54:02 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 17 06:22:25 2008. If the G and Q were combined, the new line would cross over itself, but not connect to itself somewhere in downtown Brooklyn. That would definitely look really weird on the map. |
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| (555511) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Jan 17 22:55:59 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 17 20:03:01 2008. Remember, this is coming from someone who thinks it is unfair that Flatbush riders dont have direct access to the more popular LIRR lines... |
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| (555516) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:12:06 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 17 17:29:05 2008. The M shuttle on weekends.The Greenpoint YMCA is listed on hostels' sites around the world even though I would stay at the Whitehouse hotel on Bowery at half the price if I had to. |
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| (555521) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:25:05 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 18:33:56 2008. It's not! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:25:18 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 18:33:03 2008. But it's still well used.It's not! |
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| (555523) | |
Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:25:29 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 18:37:52 2008. But still the (G) is well used between the Queens Boulevard and Crosstown lines.It's not! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:25:49 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 18:36:03 2008. Osmosis Jones and his diminishing numbers at work... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:36:02 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 16:48:15 2008. Damn I hate that the (G) has no political pull.Then become one. At least, you're supposed to get more frequent service. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by (X) 2nd Avenue Local on Thu Jan 17 23:53:25 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 17 06:22:25 2008. That would not look good, neither on the map, and as a service. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:03:21 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 17 22:55:59 2008. Without a transfer, that is... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:03:25 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 17 22:55:59 2008. Without a transfer, that is... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:03:28 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 17 22:55:59 2008. Without a transfer, that is... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:32:53 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 16:48:15 2008. If the G had no political pull the current service plan would be a lot worse than it is. G riders got several concessions and are getting more.Sometimes it's good to appreciate what you do get instead of whining about what you didn't get. If you're still unhappy, Wado's advice was very good - write or call your legislators and ask for what you want. Become an advocate. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:36:22 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:32:53 2008. By the way, I advocated for those concessions in writing and on the phone attended the public meetings, spoke to support the concessions and saw a couple of my ideas accepted and implemented. I told MTA that G riders deserved concessions in return for truncating the G route and MTA listened. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 18 03:13:16 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 14:48:11 2008. We can't even do that 100%, without data.Sure we can. It's not an FDA study, Dr. Ron. Nobody dies if we're wrong. Since the (M) may get some tourists in Lower Manhattan, common sense dictates that apart from the Franklin (S), the (G) in its present form gets the least amount of tourists. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 18 03:43:55 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 17 06:22:25 2008. Nah. If you really wanna get crazy with a (G) to Manhattan then make it go UP 2nd Av from 63rd St and to The Bronx. It would be the dumbest subway idea ever but hey, it would get you to Manhattan. A realistic way to do it would be to build new switches to the 8th Av line at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and run a new Crosstown service (the H train?) up the 8th av local tracks. The (C) would run express below 50th Av in Manhattan to make room for it. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Grand concourse on Fri Jan 18 04:11:12 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Jan 16 12:47:46 2008. But the E will still run local late nights rite? |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 05:54:13 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by SMAZ on Fri Jan 18 03:43:55 2008. That is a good one, actually:You could have an H train start at Court Square, run the G route to Hoyt-Schermorhorn, and then as an 8th avenue local in Manhattan with the A/C/E to 145th or 168th. That's one I could see fly, as it would give current G riders in Brooklyn a new line to Manhattan. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:01:32 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:36:22 2008. They did Ron:They also conviently forget you can switch to the 7 train at Court Square (currently via MetroCard transfer and eventually that will be an in-system transfer), which is something you CAN'T do at Queens Plaza from the E/V that you must do at Court Square from those lines as well. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:07:15 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by trainsarefun on Thu Jan 17 18:03:02 2008. Except by the time that could come into play, someone may have the sense of combining the V with the M train have it go 71st-Continental to Metropolitan, which would change this a bit. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:09:52 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Thu Jan 17 17:08:22 2008. And I believe the YMCA actually sued over that song when it came out in 1978. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:23:25 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 17 17:40:51 2008. Why was the RR "worse than death?" I used to ride that line growing up in the '80s, and thought it was a very good line back then. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jan 18 07:01:46 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by R30A on Thu Jan 17 22:55:59 2008. So? |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jan 18 07:04:35 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jan 17 20:03:01 2008. IAWTP! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 07:51:15 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:23:25 2008. Before it got switched to the Queens Blvd line, it had some of the worst equipment in the system, not to mention it's not an exageration that it's nickname is the "rarely" line. Only the Eastern Division lines, and perhaps the C was worse. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 07:54:05 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:12:06 2008. The M shuttle on weekends.That's not a "line". The weekend M is in the same category as the Franklin shuttle, etc. As for the YMCA. Please. |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 18 07:55:53 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 05:54:13 2008. I don't think the G tracks touch the A/C tracks there, and there are insurmountable elevation and gradient differences at Hoyt. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 07:59:06 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 23:12:06 2008. Yeah, I am sure that the "YMCA" will be just enough to tide the G to have more tourists than even the next lowest "tourist lines", such as the M and J. At least those can get some random tourists in the Wall Street area. The G and it's Greenpoint YMCA? Please. And those YMCA people would be better off walking over to Lorimer St on the M/J anyway.....to the 2nd and 3rd lowest "tourist lines". |
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Re: M/V combo on weekends |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 08:02:00 2008, in response to Re: M/V combo on weekends, posted by jsun21 on Wed Jan 16 23:30:18 2008. Why would they need to "clean up the tunnel"? It's used all the time for equipment moves. There's nothing wrong with the tunnel. |
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Re: G Train % of Queens ridership drops |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Jan 18 09:41:24 2008, in response to Re: G Train % of Queens ridership drops, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 18:45:13 2008. I'm stunned. First you make sense, then you admit to a mistake. Who are you and where is the real Dr. Ron? |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Fytton on Fri Jan 18 11:54:08 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jan 17 13:20:34 2008. 'It's fun to stay at the ....'As a paid-up member of the male gender, I once stayed at the YWCA in Vancouver. And very good it was, too, run by good Christian ladies who could not by any stretch of the imagination have been called young - but then, neither could I! |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jan 18 12:02:26 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 07:59:06 2008. And those YMCA people would be better off walking over to Lorimer St on the M/J anywayEven if you mean Lorimer on the L, that's a twenty minute hike. Bedford may be slightly closer. Come to think of it, twenty years ago the L would have been the lowest. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Jan 18 12:13:42 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 18 06:09:52 2008. And I believe the YMCA actually sued over that song when it came out in 1978.I thought it was the Navy who sued over a similar song three years later... |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Jan 18 12:36:57 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by kknj on Thu Jan 17 17:51:57 2008. No, the Q is going to go up Second Avenue when that line is complete.I used the Q as an easily understandable reference. Of course, for both 2nd Av and Crosstown to work, City Hall LL would be needed. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jan 18 13:28:29 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Jan 16 13:57:41 2008. What did train crews do all those years that the GG/G terminated at QP late nights? Are the tower rooms still there and couldn't they be used for crew facilities? |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jan 18 13:31:31 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 16:38:02 2008. I have a few points that I'd like to make:1) I have no doubt that stopping G-service past the Court Square station to service local stops along Queens Blvd, did indeed hurt some subway riders. Many of these riders have complained, talked about, and noted their concerns. I believe that there are many of these riders who miss the old arrangement of G service. Let's face it, due to the demands of the Queens Blvd segment of the G-route - when the G-train and the R-train (and before that the RR, EE, N and now R again) were the only local services - the G-train had full-length trains and fairly frequent service. This is because the Queens Blvd. section demanded a high level of train service. Those along the Brooklyn segment of the G-route benefited by this arrangement since they recieved frequent service and full length trains regardless of the amount of passenger demand among the Brooklyn segment. 2) Now that the G-train serves the Court Square to Smith/9th Street segment or (soon to be Church Avenue segment) - it has fewer and shorter trains. This is due I'm told to the needs for trains for the V-route, and a subway car shortage. While everyone loves a good conspriacy and the thought that "system is out to get you" - sometimes and just too often the "system" has very limited options and resources to respond to everyone's wishes. Thus making any kind of decision is going to upset somebody since not everyone will be satisfied with every decision made. Was it rational for the TA to give less frequent service and shorter trains to the G-train due to the needs of the other services? I suppose that if there were other options - like more trains - then the G-route would have had either more service with less than full-length trains, or less frequent service but full length trains. When times are tight - one can not get everything that they want, no matter how much they want it. 3) Most of the folks that respond to these forums do not work for the MTA, nor beyond being regular citizens have any more input into the decision making and operations processes at the MTA. While that means that many of us can "read the tea leaves of the MTA's thoughts and practices" - we are in no more position to get anything actually done than anyone else. In some cases that means that what you're going to get here (other than some very good discussions of many issues) is simply a group of folk that either agree with you, disagree with you, or worse. Generally most of us on the forum agree that pissing on the third rail is not a good thing to do, but there are some who want to argue the point. (smile) 4) The MTA is now in charge of running and operating the trains as they see fit - regardless of what anyone else may think. Since the MTA was only created in 1968, and the subways were run by private companies, then departments and authorities before its existence - it has to deal with the hand that it was given. In another message, someone asked how we would design the subways of the city a) if we were given total control, b) huge amounts of money, c) a complete blank slate without any prior systems to have to mesh with, and d) unlimited resources to do the job. Its a nice fantasy but that is not the situation today, and today is what we have to deal with. The thought of a "Metro Transit Authority" computer game like Sim-City 3000 - would actually be kind of fun. 5) The situation with the G-train too often has been looked at as if it were only about the G-train. It is as if there were no other history and events involved - which is not the case. The situation with the G-train concerns the city's 1970's fiscal crisis, Queens NIMBY operations and politicians, the plans for the Second Avenue subway, the Queens Super-Express and expansion of routes in eastern Queens, the thoughts of the planners and builders of the original IND subways, the cut-off and regaining of federal funds, the lack of money and high costs to build subway improvements, the over-crowded Queens Express trains, the real lack of planning for subway transit in Queens and the various changes in the city. I agree that all of those things are just too much to think about and reflect upon when you have been waiting on the platform for 15-minutes for a train, any train to show up to take you where you need to be. Just my thoughts. Mike |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Fri Jan 18 13:36:16 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:32:53 2008. If the G had no political pull the current service plan would be a lot worse than it is. G riders got several concessions and are getting more.I don't see how the current service plan could get any worse, did the MTA even explain in detail how service is going to be increased, or when it's going to be increased? Sometimes it's good to appreciate what you do get instead of whining about what you didn't get. I appreciate the service to Queens Plaza, which is why I'm arguing. Sure, I'll appreciate that the (G) at least goes to Court Square, although I'll appreciate Queens Plaza service more. If you're still unhappy, Wado's advice was very good - write or call your legislators and ask for what you want. Become an advocate. I did. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Fri Jan 18 13:39:29 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jan 16 15:29:12 2008. ...a 60th Street connection was proposed in the 1950's, and opened in the early 1960's, then called RR, then EE, then N, and now R. Actually, it was the Brighton local that started running to Forest Hills in 1955. The 4th Av ran to Astoria until 1961, when they traded north terminals. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jan 18 13:44:18 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 16:48:15 2008. From a previous message: "The thing is though, the majority already has 3 lines that go to where they want to go, and run pretty frequently when combined with the "minority" line, to me, what more could they want? Not everybody is headed their way."I have an old copy of the city's "Master Plan for 1968" where it talks about the problems of subway travel on Queens Blvd where three of the routes to go Manhattan, and the fourth - the G-train travels to Brooklyn - leaving its riders to transfer to other over-crowded trains. That this issue created problems in Manhattan along 53rd Street and midtown. That the express tracks were filled to capacity with trains and that new pathway for the express trains was needed. The report also talked about the need to send more local trains to Manhattan. One problem is that too many folks do not read their transit history or keep up with city policy issues. As was seen a very long time ago, there needed to be changes along the Queens Blvd subway line. So saying that "everything was fine" when it was only the G and R local routes along Queens Blvd and that that was enough -- is totally ignoring the history and nature of a problem. The problem - it is simple the majority of Queens Blvd riders want to go to Manhattan - where their jobs are located. They would love to take an express train to do so - kind of like my young daughter really really wants a unicorn. Unlike the fantasy world, the real MTA has limits on resources, money, etc. There are times when to indulge in fantasy - because it is fun -- but there are other times when to put away fantasies and to deal with the real world. Mike |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Jan 18 14:01:40 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Jan 17 14:49:01 2008. I meant to ask, weren't enough R-160s ordered to enable additional cars (of whatever car class that's available) to be used on the G?--Mark |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 14:02:03 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Jan 18 12:02:26 2008. Even if you mean Lorimer on the L, that's a twenty minute hike. Bedford may be slightly closer.I meant Lorimer on the Broadway El, but now that I look at the map, it's only about 4 o5 5 blocks from the Montrose L station at Montrose and Bushwick Ave, since you bring up the L line. Come to think of it, twenty years ago the L would have been the lowest. It's still not all that high, but has been growing. It probably always got a few because of the 14th St segment. The G would no doubt have been the lowest even back then, especially when the neighborhoods along the G were even worse. Most tourists to Manhattan wouldn't have used the G even when it was on Queens Blvd going to Manhattan. As tourists are less likely to jump on a train they don't want for Manhattan, even if it meant bringing them to the next express station. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 14:03:30 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 18 14:02:03 2008. Clickk here for map |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 14:38:25 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by Osmosis Jones on Thu Jan 17 16:48:15 2008. "Well, I just think that service should be more dedicated and open minded towards the flexibility of some riders."I agree. That's why the transfers were established. I advocated for concessions in writing and at the hearing, and we got them. If you are not happy with them that's your personal business, of course, but the process worked pretty well. |
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Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Jan 18 15:02:57 2008, in response to Re: G Train to be cut back to Court Square permanently, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jan 18 00:03:28 2008. That wasnt my main point...My main point was that much like the G isnt the main destination for QB riders, Flatbush isnt the main destination for LIRR riders. (furthermore, QB isnt the main destination for G riders, and LI isnt the main destination for Flatbush area transportation riders!) But certainly, your point about transfers is very applicable for the LIRR comparison, even moreso then they are for the G on QB debate! a cross platform transfer at jamaica for prettymuch all trains is significantly better then the transfer at 23 ELY for manhattan or queens. While there is no doubt that the V is more useful then the G on QB, the MTA really should provide the convenient Queens Plaza transfer whenever possible. While it may not be doable during rush hours or middays, it is hard to make the argument that it would not be doable nights and weekends, when the MTA successfully did so for many decades. |
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Re: H Train idea |
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Posted by jabrams on Fri Jan 18 16:36:07 2008, in response to Re: H Train idea, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 18 07:55:53 2008. The 6 tracks (2 G and 4 Fulton A/C) are parallel to each before the Lafayette Station on the A/C and the Fulton on the G, a single switch from the Queensbound G and the Manhattanbound C with a switch from the Brooklyn bound G to the Queens bound G would enable G's to go the 8th Ave. line (but not vica versa) with only 1 grade level crossover. |
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