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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:29:36 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 21:17:48 2007.

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The rich get richer by snatching riches away from the poorer

That might be true in some instances, but it is usually not true at all. In this country, acquired wealth is usually created - not "snatched."

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 21:32:38 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:29:36 2007.

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Is that a fact or an opinion?

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:34:42 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 21:32:38 2007.

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Fact. Look at who the wealthiest Americans are and how they got their wealth.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:36:03 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:34:42 2007.

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Also, I'm referring to the present, not what happened in the 19th century.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:44:53 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:15:59 2007.

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The job *was* offered to CP/M and they turned it down. It went back to Bill by default.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 21:45:27 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:34:42 2007.

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Even with the economy continually growing there's always a reallocation of wealth. Money doesn't come from nowhere.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:48:07 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:44:53 2007.

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Gotcha

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:53:07 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 21:45:27 2007.

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Yes, there is reallocation of wealth. Some of it does happen at the hands of unethical businessmen (who should be locked up,) and some of it is derived from inheritance. Most of it occurs from structural macroeconomic changes.

Economic growth is very real. If it didn't happen, we wouldn't be discussing this on our personal computers.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:56:59 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 21:17:48 2007.

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How do you separate that from the rich becoming greedier?

As if there were no greedy poor people. Who do you think is doing all of the robbing, drug dealing and other things that keep police busy 24/7.

You mean to tell me that Rikers and the State Prisons are all filled with people who were *not* greedy.

LION doesn't Think so!

Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

There was once a rich young man who wanted to follow St. Francis, and the good saint quoted this verse to him. The young man did just this: He sold all that he owned, gave it to the poor and followed St. Francis. By the end of the evening most of that money was in the hands of the barkeepers.

MONEY FLOWS UP. If you give money to the poor, they will spend it for groceries, the grocer will spend it at the wholesaler, the wholesaler will spend it with the producer: Yes it provides a lot of work and jobs along the way, that is what an economy is supposed to do, but the poor only get to spend it once. Better you should give the poor dignity, and a trade so that they my provide for themselves and their families for a lifetime.

Besides, the LION *has* sold all that he has, and has followed Christ by becoming a monk in a monastery.



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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:58:52 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:29:36 2007.

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Last I looked it was the POOR who were stealing from the poor.

Industry creates wealth. Even drug pushers know this.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:08:09 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 21:45:27 2007.

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Money comes from Labor. From no place else. It can only come from labor and the work of a man's (or woman's) hands. Look at the tallest building. It was made by labor. Look at anything that you can see that did not grow there on its own, and labor made that artifact. Even most of the crops we use were produced by manual labor.

But labor requires somebody to PAY for that labor. If I make automobiles in Detroit, I cannot do so unless somebody puts the tools and the raw materials into my hands.

These people are entrepreneurs and these get the money required from investors. These people too must see a return on their investments, otherwise they would not invest, and would not build factories or hire workers. And then what good is your union labor.

It is an economic system, and ALL of the parts must work together or the whole house of cards collapses. Bottom line: Without rich people you would have no job and no income whatsoever. You had better get yourself a plot of land and raise your own corn and chickens, because otherwise you will starve.

Besides what we call the "poor" in this country are no such thing at all. They all have a place to live, food on the table and a TV set and other accouterments of modern American living. If you want to see poor, go to Africa or Central America.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Nov 22 22:09:16 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:44:53 2007.

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Actually, Bill didn't contact the writer of CP/M, Balmer did contact his wife, who would not talk to him or the IBM suits. Then Balmer and Gates discovered Seattle Computing and the rest is, as they say, history. Gates made the deal of the century when he signed the deal with IBM. He could sell as many copies of DOS as he wanted and IBM could also sell as many copies of IBMDOS as they wanted to.

IBM is out of the PC business, but Microsoft, which has never once issued a totally new program is still with us. Everything they sell is cobbled from an older version of something.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:12:52 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Nov 22 22:09:16 2007.

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Good cobblers make good money.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 22:13:41 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:08:09 2007.

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True, but many people have gotten rich by either sending American jobs overseas or just eliminating altogether. People still grow companies, but that's not the preferred tactic anymore.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:16:03 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 22:13:41 2007.

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People still grow companies, but that's not the preferred tactic anymore.

How do you quantify that macroeconomically?

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 22 22:19:24 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:16:03 2007.

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Whno gives a fuck about economics. If I ran the country, the university of chicago would be redeveloped as a sewer treatment plant.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 22:25:40 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:16:03 2007.

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I can't quantify it. It's more of an anecdotal observation that some CEO's have made.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:30:06 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:53:07 2007.

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That's technological growth.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:30:43 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:29:36 2007.

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You're not familiar with this country, I see.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:34:21 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:30:43 2007.

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You aren't seeing very well.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:34:49 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Easy on Thu Nov 22 22:13:41 2007.

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OK, suppose we keep the jobs here. Then you would be paying $10,000 or more for that computer that you are using. Heck, a good gamer already sells for that price!

It is not business that is sending the jobs overseas, it is YOU the CONSUMER who is buying those less expensive products. If a businessman wants to remain in business he must now buy his goods elsewhere for he can no longer compete on price otherwise.

But this is now a one-world economy, like it or not.

One night not long ago, I was sitting in our monastic cafeteria, and examining the different items of tableware that were set there.

The oldest pieces were made in the USA. There were others that were made in Japan. Still others in Taiwan. Only the newest of items were made in China. This has been a world economy since the end of WW-II. It is cheaper to ship steel across the ocean than to make it in Pittsburgh.

Yet not all of our jobs have gone overseas. Today or exports are the highest they have ever been by any measure of counting. There are more jobs available today than ever before. Burger turners here make $10.00+ an hour, and there are help wanted signs on all of the stores.
And if your business requires more talented labor you must pay a much higher price. As a nurse, I could start anywhere in the country for $30.00 an hour.

There ARE jobs and work to be had aplenty in this country.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:35:38 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:30:06 2007.

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Technological growth is part of economic growth.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:36:08 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:56:59 2007.

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As if there were no greedy poor people

They didn't get poor through avarice. How exactly does that work?

As if there were no greedy poor people. Who do you think is doing all of the robbing, drug dealing and other things that keep police busy 24/7.

You mean to tell me that Rikers and the State Prisons are all filled with people who were *not* greedy


Fallacy. They're not poor either.

MONEY FLOWS UP

No. It flows bidirectionally, so long as the rich are not avaricious.

Better you should give the poor dignity, and a trade so that they my provide for themselves and their families for a lifetime

The socialists envisioned a society of tradesmen. Nothing but tradesmen. However, tradesmen get crushed when trusts are allowed to form unchecked. Theodore Roosevelt would be able to explain this better to you, were he still alive.

I noticed that you evaded answering my questions in general.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:36:55 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by BIE on Thu Nov 22 22:19:24 2007.

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The University of Chicago already *IS* a sewer treatment plant.
(Damn liberal-leftist institutions!) ☺

ROARING

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:37:50 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:35:38 2007.

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Not necessarily.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:46:06 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:34:49 2007.

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OK, suppose we keep the jobs here. Then you would be paying $10,000 or more for that computer that you are using

Utter BS. The sole reason for not keeping the jobs here is so that corporate executives can make 300-500 times the average employee salary, rather than the 20 times same, like they used to make (even during the Raygun era). Curtail that corporate greed (as it should be), and computers would be the same retail price they are today, as well as being made better.

Today or exports are the highest they have ever been by any measure of counting

Evidence?

And why do we have such a massive, crippling trade deficit?

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:48:26 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 21:34:42 2007.

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Look at who the wealthiest Americans are and how they got their wealth

That doesn't prove your assertion. It actually disproves it, in many dimensions.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:51:08 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:36:08 2007.

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The rich get richer by snatching riches away from the poorer; this is how it's worked during the whole human existence.

The rich get richer by snatching riches from the poor?

But if they had riches they wouldn't be poor, would they?

LION says "Without the Rich ALL would be poor." And a heck of a lot poorer than they are now! Only a worker can create something of value, and it only has value if someone is willing to pay for it. So if someone does not have the wherewithal to buy your product, then you have wasted your time and resources making the product.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:54:08 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:46:06 2007.

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Evidence

We have a deficit because we buy more than we sell.

ROAR

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:59:54 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:51:08 2007.

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The rich get richer by snatching riches from the poor?

But if they had riches they wouldn't be poor, would they?


Twisted logic. Riches become riches via accumulation of poverty (versus destitution, which is the absence of money, food, shelter et al).

LION says "Without the Rich ALL would be poor"

So long as the rich keep redistributing via employment and production within the country, that would be a true statement. Kill the middle class, and conspire to increase riches via means that destroy the economy, then most certainly, all would be poor.

Only a worker can create something of value, and it only has value if someone is willing to pay for it. So if someone does not have the wherewithal to buy your product, then you have wasted your time and resources making the product

Consider the value assigned. What would you describe as fair market value?

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 23:08:34 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:54:08 2007.

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Your evidence does not differentiate between goods and services. Hard to see which is which. Besides, a lot of domestic consumption guaranteed no pressing need for imports.

We have a deficit because we buy more than we sell

That's not the definition of a trade deficit. Therein, we import more than we export.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 23:13:00 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:34:21 2007.

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I'm seeing just fine. So is the rest of the world.

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Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Nilet on Thu Nov 22 23:34:17 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 22:51:08 2007.

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LION says "Without the Rich ALL would be poor."

On the contrary. The absurdly rich - multimillionaires and billionaires - can only become so bloated with wealth by starving the rest of society. There isn't enough wealth to have billionaires and eliminate poverty.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 23 00:39:44 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Broadway Lion on Thu Nov 22 21:58:52 2007.

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Industry creates wealth

You got that right. But it has to be all industry. The USA's got an inordinate dearth of industry, so much so that the economists are using the term "postindustrial" to put some kind of deceptive positive spin on the condition. (There is nothing post industry, though.)

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 03:01:04 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 23:08:34 2007.

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It doesn't matter, a service is as valuable an export as a good.

That's not the definition of a trade deficit. Therein, we import more than we export.

Yes, it is the definition of a trade deficit. Import=buy, export=sell.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 03:04:48 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:46:06 2007.

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Utter BS. The sole reason for not keeping the jobs here is so that corporate executives can make 300-500 times the average employee salary, rather than the 20 times same, like they used to make (even during the Raygun era). Curtail that corporate greed (as it should be), and computers would be the same retail price they are today, as well as being made better.

False. Curtail that corporate greed AND keep outsourcing those jobs for even lower prices.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 03:05:59 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Russ on Thu Nov 22 22:34:21 2007.

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Don't mind him, he's a hopeless opium addict.

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 03:14:41 2007, in response to Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Nilet on Thu Nov 22 23:34:17 2007.

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False.

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 23 03:30:46 2007, in response to Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 03:14:41 2007.

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K, then. Show us the poverty elimination (not mere amelioration).

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 04:24:43 2007, in response to Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 23 03:30:46 2007.

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I was talking about his first sentence. As for his second sentence, the countries which have the richest people, also have the least poverty. I don't see any Americans living as horribly as some people in the Third World.

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 23 04:30:32 2007, in response to Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 04:24:43 2007.

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You've been to the Third World?

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 23 04:52:58 2007, in response to Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 23 04:30:32 2007.

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Yes, but not some of the thirdiest of the Third World.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Russ on Fri Nov 23 06:54:25 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:48:26 2007.

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It neither proves nor disproves it.

I am citing evidence that supports my claim. Look at the Forbes 400 and make a spreadsheet of who is on there and how they acquired their wealth.

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Russ on Fri Nov 23 07:00:24 2007, in response to Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Nilet on Thu Nov 22 23:34:17 2007.

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The absurdly rich - multimillionaires and billionaires - can only become so bloated with wealth by starving the rest of society.

That's an utterly ridiculous statement. For example, who did Mayor Bloomberg drive into poverty to become so wealthy?

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Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos)

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Fri Nov 23 10:30:01 2007, in response to Re: Economic Discussions (Derived from: FOIA For Photos), posted by Russ on Fri Nov 23 07:00:24 2007.

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If someone believes there is a finite supply of money, the only way to get money is by getting money from someone else. Distribution of wealth. Or when you go into a themepark the point is to empty your pockets. Money flows.
That money came from somewhere right? So by whom?

If you go for that economist talk where money is finite and there's no wealth creation, which my layman mind thinks is bunk

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Nov 23 10:36:01 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 23:08:34 2007.

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There are other sites that *do* show that quite well.
We mostly do sell goods, but services work too to bring down the deficit.

ROAR

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Re: ROBBED BY A COP— PROPERTY DESTROYED!

Posted by metropod on Fri Nov 23 10:40:11 2007, in response to ROBBED BY A COP— PROPERTY DESTROYED!, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 29 20:42:32 2007.

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1.no. this wasn't robery. nothing was taken. it was sreached, but you got it back. even though it was wrong, it was still a legel search.
2.I really don't think the courts would compenstate you for deleated photos.
3. most likly posibale (the good news).

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Re: ROBBED BY A COP— PROPERTY DESTROYED!

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Nov 23 10:45:46 2007, in response to Re: ROBBED BY A COP— PROPERTY DESTROYED!, posted by metropod on Fri Nov 23 10:40:11 2007.

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1. Whatever it was, it was criminal. That's the point.
2. They likely would, IMHO.
3. You obviously didn't read the whole thread before posting.

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Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident)

Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Nov 23 10:46:55 2007, in response to Re: FOIA For Photos (Originally Re: Cop Incident), posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 22 22:59:54 2007.

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A fair market value would be the cost of the raw material, plus the cost of labor, plus the amortized cost of the plant, its equipment, utilities and taxes, plus a fair profit in return to the investors.

To this amount is added the costs of the transportation, the costs and profits of the wholesale establishment, more transportation, and the costs, overhead and profits to the retail establishment.

Any one of these links *could* have a usurious profit applied which might be unethical and as you say "stealing from the poor to bloat the rich", and unfortunately, such *does* happen. But this is not against the law, and you are free to purchase similar merchandise from a more reliable, honest, and less costly vendor.

Thus it is *supposed* to be the market that keeps business people honest in their efforts to put the lowest price before the consumer. WalMart helps to this extent. But of course we all know what Democrats think of WalMart (even as they spend their dollars there). But WalMart has a lot of vertical organization, from the import at the edge of the dock directly to the store shelf with their own distribution system. Thus they are also able to cut out the middleman, something that other merchants cannot do.

ROAR

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Re: YOU NEED A LAWYER!

Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Nov 23 10:47:42 2007, in response to ROBBED BY A COP— PROPERTY DESTROYED!, posted by Nilet on Sun Apr 29 20:42:32 2007.

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The TA personnel and officers should be disciplined for this inappropriate behavior.

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