|
|
| Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx (517770) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
| (517770) | |
Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007 We all know that since the 3rd Avenue el was taken down in the Bronx, that corridor has lacked decent transit service. A relatively inexpensive way to restore some of it would be by running subway-like service on the MNRR Harlem line.It would work like this. Eliminate all regular MNRR local service from Mount Vernon West to Grand Central. Instead, run local service at frequent regular interval on the 2 outside tracks on that stretch. The key to making this work is to make believe it is a subway, though it will be operated using MNRR equipment and crews. Thus, the fare would be the same as the subway fare, paid by Metrocard. The line would be labled with a number (say, #8), which would be used on all signs, and the signs would be the same as those on the subway. The trains would also carry the #8 on them. The line would be listed on subway maps like any other subway line, and treated like a subway line in all publicity. Trains would run at regular intervals. There would be Metrocard-free-transfers at various places where the line is within a few blocks of another line. You could phase in the service like this: Phase 1 - Build turnstiles and required fencing at existing stations in the Bronx (I've figured out a way of doing this at Fordham, where platforms would be shared with regular MNRR trains - though not at 125th). Start running the new 4-car #8 trains from Mt. Vernon W to GCT, at 15 minute intervals all day starting at normal MNRR morning start time, and 20 min intervals from midnight till 2 am. Institute Metrocard transfers at Williambridge/Gun Hill (to the 2) and 125th (to the 4-5-6 and, potentially, SAS), and of course GCT to all subways there. Phase 2 - Rebuild and reopen abandoned stations at Claremont, Morrisania and 183rd St. in the Bronx. Stations would then be roughly 1/2 mile apart. Consider a station at 149th for a transfer to the west side subway. Phase 3 - Reopen abandoned stations under Park Avenue --such as 86th, 72nd and 59th. If this is successful, it would be a template for other similar corridors, such as the Amtrak line in the East Bronx. Other than the NIMBY issues on Park Ave., the main problem I see is finding slots for the new trains on the Hralem line. A couple of existing local traind=[s would be eliminted , but not the 4tph required. What do you all think? Can this be a feasible quick-and-dirty way to restore service to the old 3rd Ave. corridor? |
|
|
| (517812) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Thu Nov 15 21:14:39 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. What do you all think?The only catch is that Westchester/CT service can't be handled on the 2 tracks that remain. There are 70 (yes 70, not all in revenue service - 10 of them are going out empty for a second run) trains through 125th street in the peak AM hour. All but 2 or 3 come/go from farther than Mt. Vernon. They don't fit on 2 tracks; they barely fit on 4 tracks. |
|
|
| (517825) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Nov 15 21:31:02 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. I'd like to see something like this happen. It's similar to what's been (unofficially) proposed in Boston for the Fairmount commuter rail line and in Philadelphia for the two Chestnut Hill regional rail lines. Though I agree with you that it may be a problem here because Metro-North's Harlem Line is busier than the MBTA Fairmount Line or the SEPTA's Chestnut Hill East and West lines. |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (517840) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by error46146 on Thu Nov 15 21:48:05 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. Once every 20 minutes??? |
|
|
| (517848) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Nov 15 21:58:06 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by AlM on Thu Nov 15 21:14:39 2007. Agreed. I do like Italianstallion's" creative outside-the box thinking though.If there were sufficient capacity, I'd be in favor of turning part of the main line out to Floral Park into such a service. Of course the Floral Park snobs would be pissed at me, but what the hell, it's just a fantasy, right. :0) |
|
|
| (517902) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 22:35:27 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by AlM on Thu Nov 15 21:14:39 2007. You misunderstood -- since the new trains and crew would still be Metro-North, the existing MNRR trains could continue to use the local tracks, as well as the express tracks -- so all 4 tracks. |
|
|
| (517903) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 22:36:59 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by error46146 on Thu Nov 15 21:48:05 2007. Every 15 minutes all day-- 20 minutes only from midnight to 2 am. Ideally, every 5 or 10 minutes would be better, but I fear that would take up too much track space from current MNRR trains. |
|
|
| (517912) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Nilet on Thu Nov 15 22:46:27 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 22:35:27 2007. Would non-"subway" trains make the now-"subway" stops? Would they still stop at 125th but skip other intermediate stations? Would Hudson trains stop at 125th but not others? |
|
|
| (517939) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 23:07:15 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Nilet on Thu Nov 15 22:46:27 2007. The regular MNRR trains would skip all the new "subway" stops, except Fordham and 125th. People could switch from the subway-type locals to the MNRR trains to the suburbs at those 2 stops. Thus the existing Harlem locals that start in Westchester and stop at stations like Woodlawn and Botanical Garden would no longer do so. That would benefit Westchester riders. |
|
|
| (518028) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Fri Nov 16 00:56:12 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 23:07:15 2007. From a previous message: "The regular MNRR trains would skip all the new "subway" stops, except Fordham and 125th. People could switch from the subway-type locals to the MNRR trains to the suburbs at those 2 stops. Thus the existing Harlem locals that start in Westchester and stop at stations like Woodlawn and Botanical Garden would no longer do so. That would benefit Westchester riders."A few questions - after the passengers have switched trains at 125th Street, just where do those 'subway stop" trains go? The 125th Street MNRR station is really not a good station to try to terminate and relay trains during the height of the rush hours when some 70 trains come roaring through. If those "subway stop" trains were to continue the journey to Grand Central Terminal just like the other trains, then in essence they would be just like the regular trains that stop at those stations now. In 1968 one of the proposals for the Second Avenue Subway was to take over the outside local tracks to use as a replacement for the Third Avenue El route. I suspect that the amount of trains that the MNRR handles, the need for the full use of those tracks, and the historical problems with the SAS lead to other ideas and thoughts. Mike |
|
|
| (518063) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Fri Nov 16 03:46:23 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. What you are proposing is simply a Mount Vernon to GCT Metro-North service that makes all the local stops at subway prices. I don't see anything wrong with that but I wouldn't give it a subway designation becuase it wouldn't be a subway service. I would just give it a distinct color on the MNRR map. |
|
|
| (518125) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 09:25:32 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Michael549 on Fri Nov 16 00:56:12 2007. The subway-like trains would continue to Grand Central of course. A 2-track platform there could be dedicated as their terminus. The point is to provide subway-type service from central north Bronx to midtown along the MNRR ROW. The "subway" service would not "take over" the outside tracks. Since the subway-like service would only run 4 tph (unless it became wildly popular), regular MNRR trains could continue to use the outside tracks. I recognize capacity issues would have to be addressed. MNRR does not fully utilize the 4-tracks on the Marlem line. If it did, there would be no room south of 149th St. for the trains that merge into those 4 tracks from the Hudson line. thus, the real capacity issues would be south of that point. These might be solved by sending some Hudson and New Haven trains to Penn Station if the Penn Station Access Project is ever accomplished. |
|
|
| (518129) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 09:30:02 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by SMAZ on Fri Nov 16 03:46:23 2007. No - to market it properly, you'd have to make people think it's a subway, with all appropriate signage and map coverage. Plus, you'd give it free transfers to subways (and buses) via MetroCard -- so you'd want custoners to consider it a subway. |
|
|
| (518156) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by EE | Broadway Local on Fri Nov 16 10:43:25 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 09:30:02 2007. Might it be better (assuming the money is available) to build a tunnel from 125th to 132d Streets and routing the (T) via a Third/Webster Avenue subway to Gun Hill Road? Here, the old stations at 133d, 138th and 143d could be added with a transfer at 138th Street between the (T) and the (6). There also would be the transfers at 149th Street and Gun Hill Road. The (Q) initially could end at Lexington Avenue and potentially be extended to St. Nicholas Avenue. One benefit - The Bronx (T) trains could run on 10 minute headways 6am to 11pm 20 minutes 11pm to 2am. |
|
|
| (518255) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by error46146 on Fri Nov 16 14:56:59 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 22:36:59 2007. How about we make those two local tracks subway only. No Metro North allowed. We change the tracks to support subway trains. We could run R32's or something on it . |
|
|
| (518257) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 15:02:56 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by error46146 on Fri Nov 16 14:56:59 2007. And where would you put the Metro-North traisn? |
|
|
| (518258) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Nov 16 15:04:03 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 15:02:56 2007. Saw Mill Parkway, I guess. :) |
|
|
| (518259) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 15:04:09 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by EE | Broadway Local on Fri Nov 16 10:43:25 2007. Of course it would be better. My plan was for a service that could be instituted quickly, with minimum new construction and minimum money. |
|
|
| (518264) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Nov 16 15:20:34 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by error46146 on Fri Nov 16 14:56:59 2007. Then you have to modify the subway cars to take 750V or step down the voltage on those two tracks. |
|
|
| (518289) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Fri Nov 16 16:50:21 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Nov 16 15:20:34 2007. Then after you do that you can go pick up all the shoes you broke off your train trying to use it on underrunning third rail. |
|
|
| (518305) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by shadyelstation on Fri Nov 16 17:10:48 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by EE | Broadway Local on Fri Nov 16 10:43:25 2007. I agree with this idea; however, there would be no need for stations 5 blocks apart in part due to 600' trains serving the area (it seems you're replicating the stops served by the old el. With longer trains you can get away with fewer stations).My idea for a Bronx SAS extension includes the following stops along 3rd/Webster Aves: 138, 149, 156, 163, 169, Claremont, Tremont, 182-183 (St Barnabas), Fordham Plaza, Bedford, 204, Gun Hill. Stations are approximately 1/4 to 1/2 mile apart (used Google Earth once for distance approximations). |
|
|
| (518432) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Nov 16 20:35:41 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. Better Idea: Daily CityTicket. |
|
|
| (518456) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 21:42:54 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Nov 16 20:35:41 2007. That costs more than the subway fare. No one seems to know about the current weekend CityTicket. Billing and branding and charging my new service as a part of the subway system will make it much more user-friendly to the average outer-boro commuter, most of whom don't know nuthin' bout ridin' Metro-North (or LIRR for that matter). |
|
|
| (518499) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Forest Glen on Fri Nov 16 23:26:51 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. This would be unfair to Metro-North riders who would be inconvenienced by the additional local stops. There are also logistics and union issues that would prevent a commuter railroad from acting like a subway. |
|
|
| (518518) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Nov 17 00:55:59 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Nov 16 23:26:51 2007. Not really. The trains would likely terminate at the Mount Vernon West station, so all of the stations north of Mount Vernon would still have their present service. |
|
|
| (518528) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sat Nov 17 02:25:39 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 09:30:02 2007. Perhaps it should be marked with its own color on both MN and subway maps. I like the idea and re-opening some of the abandoned stations in Manhattan would definitely decongest the Lex. Others here who know more about MNRR operations may be better prepared then me to comment on the operational aspects of such a service and how it would affect the traditional commuter trains' operations. |
|
|
| (518531) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sat Nov 17 02:33:37 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by error46146 on Fri Nov 16 14:56:59 2007. And then we can send Metro-North on the Queens Blvd express tracks and get rid of that lousy (E) train. |
|
|
| (518540) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Lord Vader on Sat Nov 17 06:47:06 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. Nope. Think conga-line between Woodlawn Jct and GCT. Cheapest alternative is building the el along the route. This can be the new Broadway-3rd Ave local from South Ferry local to 96, cross over to Lenox Ave then use a new connection north of 149/Third and there's your new 9 route to Gun Hill Rd. The last mentioned junction may be costly but in the end run, will pay off itself in a few years.Lord Vader |
|
|
| (518543) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Nov 17 07:24:54 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by SMAZ on Sat Nov 17 02:33:37 2007. And then we can send Metro-North on the Queens Blvd express tracks and get rid of that lousy (E) train.Or more realistically, utilize the LIRR Main Line local tracks rather better. |
|
|
| (518588) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Sat Nov 17 10:56:27 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Nov 16 23:26:51 2007. Maybe this is one of those cases where we should just leave well enough alone. Right now the MNRR has full usage of its tracks to handle the needs of its ridership.Trying to add local trains that stopped at once were long closed local stations in the midst of other traffic racing to the terminal can just be a recipe for disaster. Not to mention the ideas that have gone off the deep end of sanity - explain again the need for #3 trains to connect to #4 trains in the Bronx? Many #4 folks change to the #2 if they need westside service, or transfer to other lines. Maybe "we" should leave well-enough alone. Mike |
|
|
| (518590) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by error46146 on Sat Nov 17 10:59:01 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 16 15:02:56 2007. on the express track |
|
|
| (518736) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Sat Nov 17 15:56:44 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Forest Glen on Fri Nov 16 23:26:51 2007. I doubt union issues would prevent running extra MNRR local trains. That is all this plan would be in reality -- it would be labeled a subway for marketing purposes- to get people to ride it.There's a legitimate issue with having local trains make additional stops; this could back up through trains from Westchester. Without full info on how MNRR scheduling works, not sure how to deal with this. |
|
|
| (518739) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Sat Nov 17 16:17:15 2007, in response to Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 15 19:29:43 2007. From 7:30 to 8:30 am, there are roughly 51 MNRR in-bound trains passing through or stopping at 125th St. I believe they use 3 of the 4 tracks; thus, there are 17 trains on each track in that hour, or one in a little less than every 4 minutes.There is no problem adding 4 local tph on the Harlem line north of 149th St -- of those 51 total trains at 125th, 14 come from the Hudson line, so the Harlem/New Haven tracks north of the Hudson junction at 149th could arguably fit 14 more trains in that hour if the Hudson line did not exist. So, the question is, could 4 (or even 5) more trains per hour be fitted onto the 3 in-bound tracks below 125th in the height of the morning rush hour? |
|
|
| (519029) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Nov 18 03:16:28 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Nov 17 07:24:54 2007. I was just teasing error46146. He worships his (E)xcellent (E)xpress. |
|
|
| (519031) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Sun Nov 18 03:26:42 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by Michael549 on Sat Nov 17 10:56:27 2007. A (3) connection to the (4) would give NYP and PATH riders a quick one-seat ride to The Stadium. Of course this could be done cheaper by switching the (B) and (C) to their old routes. |
|
|
| (519163) | |
Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Sun Nov 18 11:40:03 2007, in response to Re: Build a Virtual Subway Line in the Bronx, posted by SMAZ on Sun Nov 18 03:26:42 2007. If I were a NY-Penn Station rider or a PATH train rider, and I wanted to go Yankee Stadium, there is one simple operation, if I really want a one seat ride. Since both terminals are in the 33rd Street-34th Street area, in the case of PATH train walk upstairs/downstairs to take the B or D trains at the 34th Street-Herald Square Station directly to/from Yankee Stadium. If I were a NY-Peen Station rider, I could walk one or two blocks to Sixth Avenue and 34th Street and then catch either the B or D trains to the Bronx, directly to Yankee Stadium.If a PATH user really did not like the crowds at 33rd and 34th Streets, they could take a PATH train to 9th Street, walk down Sixth Avenue one block to 8th Street, and there catch the B and D trains at the West 4th Street station (which no longer has entrances on West 4th Street, but on 3rd Street and 8th Street). My point it that there is no compelling reason to join #3 trains and #4 trains in the Bronx. Not everybody gets a "one-seat ride" - and that was never and could never be the over all most important goal of the planning of subway routes and lines. Folks have to transfer from one line to another - it is a fact of transit life. Many LIRR users know the routine by heart, "change at Jamaica" Mike |
|
|
