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Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007  Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer [  ] Grand Central-42nd Street [  ]And then I got stopped. But not by a police officer, but a conductor, for this photo.  Grand Central-42nd Street [  ]I had a talk with him. He explained that "photography is illegal" and thought I was a terrorist "scoping out the system". ("Dum-Dum-Dum") I kindly disagreed with him, ("Are you sure? The rules say it's allowed.") and read out and gave him my copy of the New York City Transit Rules of Conduct ("Photography is..."). After reading 1059C, he repeated "Photography is illegal". After one last try ("Did someone tell you that?"), he still wasn't budging ("Ask a cop, see what they tell you."). I gave up ("I sure will.") and got on the train. The main idea here, the rules of conduct seem to be useless now. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Oct 14 21:38:09 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. People are just so confused about photography. They'll tell you their personal opinions (of which they are confident, yet wrong) as fact.And it looks like somebody forgot that they no longer post with the text centered! ;) |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:41:50 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Easy on Sun Oct 14 21:38:09 2007. I said pictures only. I'm not changing that. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 14 21:45:43 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. The main idea here, the rules of conduct seem to be useless now.Nah, the rules are as useful as ever. They show that you are doing nothing wrong. If you wanted to take more photos, you could have. The worst he could have done was called the police, and the police would have most likely been on your side (assuming their rulebook was up to date and showed the same text as your printout does). |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 14 21:45:54 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. Nice pics. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:47:43 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 14 21:45:54 2007. Thank you. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:48:43 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 14 21:45:43 2007. I would hope so. Some people just hate being wrong and looking stupid. Maybe he was one of those guys. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by monorail on Mon Oct 15 00:20:33 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. nice picsbut I use Listerine.... |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Fred G on Mon Oct 15 03:32:01 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. Nice shots, especially the first one. Good on your for having the rules with you, despite the conductor's obstinance. Some guys just don't get it.your pal, Fred |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 14 21:45:43 2007.  The worst he could have done was called the police, and the police would have most likely been on your side (assuming their rulebook was up to date and showed the same text as your printout does). I don't know. I met a cop today who declared that my printout of 1050.9(c) wasn't "really" the rules. He said that the MTA doesn't make the law and that the NYPD said that photography was illegal. He actually went so far as to ask: "Are you willing to bet your freedom that you're right about the law?" (I should have said, "YES! But I'm not willing to bet that you know the law.) In retrospect, I should have asked him (on camera, since I tape everything now) "I hope to continue filming. If I do, will you arrest me?" That way, he has to give me permission to keep filming or illegally force me to stop a legal activity on camera, in which case I'd stop filming and send the tape to the CCRB as soon as I could. Incidentally, I asked the cop which supervisor told him that photography is illegal. He said that he wasn't told as such by a specific supervisor; it's common "knowledge" in the police department. He also said, when I pointed out that the MTA website says photography is legal, that the NYPD, not the MTA makes the laws (!) and that the NYPD website says photography is illegal in the subway. So I'm wondering— do I send this tape to the CCRB, even though he didn't specifically do anything blatantly illegal? Or are we going to have to bring in the NYCLU and get an official memo issued like was the case with the LIRR? Or should we alert the newspapers? |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:19:43 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. ...Oh, and nice photos! |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 15 20:27:24 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. I think the NYCLU and the press needs to get involved at this point. Did you get his badge number? |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Oct 15 20:34:57 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. I think YOU should start carrying around a small scrabook full of articles from when the proposed photo ban was shot down. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by 33rd Street on Mon Oct 15 21:33:02 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. Incidentally, I asked the cop which supervisor told him that photography is illegal. He said that he wasn't told as such by a specific supervisor; it's common "knowledge" in the police department. He also said, when I pointed out that the MTA website says photography is legal, that the NYPD, not the MTA makes the laws (!) and that the NYPD website says photography is illegal in the subway.As all of us knows, this is a false claim. The NYPD doesn't make the rules, the MTA does. I seriously think they should increase it from 2 years of college to a masters degree. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Oct 16 01:51:32 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by 33rd Street on Mon Oct 15 21:33:02 2007. No, they need to start paying rookie cops more than $25,000 a year. With the salary so low, they've started hiring people who've been convicted of misdemeanors to be cops and they still can't meet their hiring goals. Soon enough, they'll be hiring felons! :( If they paid the cops more, they could have some sort of standards again and could turn away cops who just like having and abusing power. Now they have to take anyone with a pulse and some without. Gotta have someone in the uniform! :( |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Oct 16 02:00:17 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by BMTLines on Mon Oct 15 20:27:24 2007. I think the NYCLU and the press needs to get involved at this point. OK. Who should I contact? Last time, someone posted an email address for some reporter, but I doubt I can find it now. Google doesn't like SubChat. :( Did you get his badge number? 25281 Short. I video'd the whole thing. Ever since the incident last April, I've been taping the entirety of every encounter with the cops in case one of them tries to do the same thing those two cops did. BTW, I saw my cousin in person for the first time since that incident yesterday. (She's a retired cop and a former CCRB board member, so she's been helping through the process a bit.) She said that it'd take 18 months at least before anything happens regarding that case, though that might be an exaggeration. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Oct 16 11:13:00 2007, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. Search NYC.govSign up for E-mail Updates Advanced Search Search Tips Searched for Photography (Search took 0.03 seconds) Your search - Photography - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing "Photography". |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Oct 16 11:23:43 2007, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. I'd figure it's not like the dude is going to admit he's wrong maybe. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 17:58:27 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Nilet on Mon Oct 15 20:17:18 2007. The officer is wrong. NYPD does not make any laws, the state legislature or city council makes the laws. While we are on that subject, I wonder how legal the so called laws are that the MTA makes regarding certain specifically prohibited activities. These may be rules of conduct but is there anything in the MTA charter that makes these regulations the legal equivalent of "laws?" Another datail regarding the authority of the MTA to enact any such regulations is that although the MTA is the parent agency, the legal entity charged with operation of the NY City transit system is still the New York City Transit Authority, not the MTA. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 18:10:16 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by 33rd Street on Mon Oct 15 21:33:02 2007. I don't even think the issue is one of education so much as it is plain old fashioned common sense. Back in the days when "Murphy the Irish cop" patrolled the streets possibly without the benefit of even a high school education, police officers were more polite and more efficient and knew exactly how to handle a situation in such a way as to prevet it from escalating into a major incident. Modern day police officers may have the benefit of formal education but like so many of the managers in my former TA department many don't know the subway from a hole in the ground an can't even find their way across the street without a road map. Don't get me wrong, I do have a great deal of respect for police officers who do the job and have quite a few of them as friends but these people are unique in their atttudes and capabilities. Conversely, I have had unfortunate experiences with police officers who were unfamiliar with the latest changes in the laws and like the Transit Bureau officer in the discussed incident seem to want to make up laws as they go along for their own personal convenience. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sun May 18 19:04:50 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by randyo on Sun May 18 17:58:27 2008. These may be rules of conduct but is there anything in the MTA charter that makes these regulations the legal equivalent of "laws?"If the rules are in shown as being part of 21 NYCRR 1050 then yes that is actually a state law. NYCRR stands for New York Code Rules and Regulations. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Nilet on Sun May 18 19:38:31 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by randyo on Sun May 18 17:58:27 2008. Wow, what a necropost! I had to check back through my video records to figure out which officer I was referring to in that last post of mine! Turns out it was Officer Short, shield #25281. I don't think I took him to the CCRB, though. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:39:24 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by BMTLines on Sun May 18 19:04:50 2008. That being the case, i would question the constitutionality of the so called NYCRR since that means that "laws" are being enacted by indifiduals who are not duly elected representatives of the people and have no responsibility to the electorate. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by pd11604 on Sun May 18 21:17:30 2008, in response to Re: Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by randyo on Sun May 18 19:39:24 2008. Welcome to the real worldThey are indeed laws just like the federal rules and regulations governing the FCC and EPA in the CFR - Code of Federal Regulations |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by Bingham C50 on Sun May 18 23:25:48 2008, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. You are a good photographer.And the conductor is a moron. You handled yourself well. |
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Re: Scoping out the System [Photos] |
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Posted by MattW@15st_prospect_park on Sun May 18 23:44:27 2008, in response to Scoping out the System [Photos], posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Oct 14 21:32:16 2007. Nice pics! |
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