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| R44's on the Eastern Division (502376) | |
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| (502376) | |
R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 14 00:18:27 2007 On the R44 rollsign I have, the M train is listed with its destinations as Brighton Beach or Myrtle and Metropolitan Ave. I was under the impression that the 75 foot cars were too long for the turn off of the Williamsburg Bridge before the reconstruction. Isn't the turn out to the M line at Myrtle Ave. also too tight for two 75 foot cars to pass each other. And the sharp turn entering Delancey St. from the bridge. |
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| (502420) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by monorail on Sun Oct 14 01:39:41 2007, in response to R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 14 00:18:27 2007. yes, but transit didn't know that until AFTER they ordered the signs |
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| (502448) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Sun Oct 14 08:17:27 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by monorail on Sun Oct 14 01:39:41 2007. The signs were put in almost 20 years after they new that thery would not fit. Were did you get this information from that they did not know?Robert |
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| (502464) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Oct 14 09:56:02 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by North-Easten T/O on Sun Oct 14 08:17:27 2007. Not to mention, they may even be the same rollsigns they put in the R42's, etc. |
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| (502565) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 14 12:32:06 2007, in response to R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 14 00:18:27 2007. The R44's were delivered with ROLL SIGNS with IND destinations only. The M/M or C/R would be able to set a route by selecting TENS and Units that were used for numbering routes. Then they would depress a button -side sign start- and ALL the side signs in the train would change automatically to the destination desired. The new LCD fixtures actually can display over a thousand differant messages and ALL the routes were included-- even possiable re-routes and single station destinations...most of them were never used--WE-44 |
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| (502612) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Sun Oct 14 14:28:18 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 14 12:32:06 2007. The current LCD signs on the R-44/46 cannot display anything regarding the (J)(L)(M) or (Z). |
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| (502668) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Oct 14 15:50:29 2007, in response to R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 14 00:18:27 2007. Brobly swiped the rollsign from elsewither. |
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| (502686) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Dan on Sun Oct 14 17:36:06 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Oct 14 09:56:02 2007. The R44/46 side rollsigns were wider than the R42 rollsigns, but the front rollsigns are interchangable which is why you may still see J M Z L or the brown diamond R, which you can still see on R46s. |
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| (502769) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 14 21:09:58 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Oct 14 14:28:18 2007. The system is designed to be re-programmed with route/destination changes which have occured several times since their installation..WE-44 |
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| (502981) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Oct 15 07:33:57 2007, in response to R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by jabrams on Sun Oct 14 00:18:27 2007. Proff? |
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| (503010) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 15 09:27:44 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Dan on Sun Oct 14 17:36:06 2007. I like to put up one of those sign when I do a ley up from Far Rock. I even if I could find them put the codes in for the Line I have on the front. I like to see the people faces when they see a train singed up as a M train to Met. running up the flats.Robert |
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| (503055) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 11:23:39 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 15 09:27:44 2007. A while back someone posted that a few R46s were layed up in Jamaica with Z on the front sign probably as a joke to set off the foamers.We know the R46s ventured into the Eastern Division, at least once, as part of a fantrip way back on 07/04/1976. We had photographic proof of an R46 at Fresh Pond Road, but no one on the board saved a download of it, and I damaged my copy years ago. The person who originally posted it has vanished from these boards and his website is apparently dormant. |
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| (503138) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 15 15:28:44 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Oct 14 14:28:18 2007. Yes they can, I have found them, the problem is some cars will show other line while some will some them. I have seen this on one of my R44's lay up to Pikens. Half the set showed the M and the other half showed I think the R.Robert |
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| (503145) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Oct 15 16:08:57 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 11:23:39 2007. I grew up in the projects on Delancey Street with my bedroom window facing the Willy Bee and one time I recall seeing R44's crossing the bridge going toward Brooklyn. The train had a serious flat spot that was banging real loud as it crossed the bridge. |
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| (503147) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Oct 15 16:14:40 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Oct 15 16:08:57 2007. Probably went to E.N.Y. yard to get it's wheels "Trued". |
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| (503151) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Oct 15 16:42:54 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Oct 14 14:28:18 2007. False.I saw M 4th Ave Express a few months back. |
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| (503152) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Oct 15 16:46:59 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by R30A on Mon Oct 15 16:42:54 2007. I don't know about that. There are 1,245 codes, and the only route that shows from the Eastern Division is 'Z'. |
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| (503154) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Oct 15 16:48:14 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by G1Ravage on Sun Oct 14 14:28:18 2007. Actually, they have (L), but no displays to it. |
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| (503208) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 19:47:38 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 11:23:39 2007. I have a copy, how do I get the image up? |
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| (503209) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by FarRock on Mon Oct 15 19:51:15 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 15 09:27:44 2007. Lemme know when you're gonna do it and I'll be on the lookout. |
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| (503216) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by 33rd Street on Mon Oct 15 20:04:45 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Oct 15 16:08:57 2007. That must have been a sight to see. I assume you lived at Gompers or Masaryk Towers at the time. Correct? |
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| (503244) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 20:50:11 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 19:47:38 2007. Were you on that fantrip? |
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| (503251) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:05:16 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 11:23:39 2007. We had photographic proof of an R46 at Fresh Pond Road, but no one on the board saved a download of it, and I damaged my copy years ago....except Eric. He saved a copy, and fairly recently he posted a scanned copy of a printed copy...I wasn;'t about to let it go that time around...so I copied the photo...and even though not clear, it's the best proof we have of that fantrip to date..... 
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| (503253) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:06:23 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 19:47:38 2007. Please post whatever photo you have of that trip. |
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| (503254) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 21:07:20 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 20:50:11 2007. No, someone posted it and I snatched it up, but being a copy of a copy, it isn't the greatest of quality.Here goes nothing. 
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| (503255) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 21:08:33 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:05:16 2007. Looks like we both thought the same thing. |
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| (503257) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:09:20 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Jsun21 on Mon Oct 15 21:08:33 2007. Hahaha, at exactly the same time.... I was hoping you had a clearer copy, but we obviously both have Eric's copy that he was so kind to post some months ago.... |
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| (503259) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 15 21:15:58 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Mon Oct 15 16:14:40 2007. There's only one spot on the J/M line where 75' cars cannot pass under any condition, and that's the Manhattan-bound track curving into Crecent St. Sideswiping issues make operations elsewhere risky, but nothing that would physically prevent their operation. I wonder if they could have traversed the old S-curve on the northbound L between Sutter and Atlantic. |
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| (503278) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Dan on Mon Oct 15 22:11:37 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:09:20 2007. Before I damaged my copy of the original, I emailed it to another SubTalker, so someone has it in their collection, somewhere. |
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| (503286) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Oct 15 22:28:32 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by 33rd Street on Mon Oct 15 20:04:45 2007. Masaryk Towers. As a kid I did a lot of rail and bus fanning from my bedroom window. I had Brian Cudahy's book Under the Sidewalks of New York which aquatinted me to the train model numbers. I also had a poster on my bedroom wall which had a picture of all R type equipment with data and pictures.I use to do bus fanning as well watching the M14's and B39's. |
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| (503291) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Mon Oct 15 22:49:36 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:05:16 2007. Nice picture. A unique moment in transit history. |
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| (503342) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 04:03:54 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by North-Easten T/O on Mon Oct 15 15:28:44 2007. Ah, okay.Then I'll change my statement to, "R-44/46 cars with the latest, up-to-date programs can't display anything from those lines." It would make sense that the older program can display it, but it wouldn't be listed on the current lists. They were most likely removed in the 2001 update. |
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| (503553) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:39:19 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Oct 15 21:15:58 2007. From what I have heard, that location isn't even at issue, but the curves at the ends of the Willy B are still the problem. |
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| (503576) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Oct 16 19:44:02 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:39:19 2007. Only when trains are coming in the opposing direction, trains may sideswipe. The curves themselves are negotiable, as long as there isn't a train coming in the other direction. What Chris was saying is that the Crescent St curve is not even negotiable, regardless if opposing trains are not coming. |
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| (503624) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by jabrams on Tue Oct 16 21:41:27 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Westcode44 on Sun Oct 14 21:09:58 2007. When I first brought the topic up, I was talking about the cloth/mylar rollsigns with the crank, not the electronic ones. As I mentioned in a post about 6 months ago, there was even a space on the rollsign for a short "B" route, from 47-50th to Times Square. |
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| (503626) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Oct 16 22:07:16 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by jabrams on Tue Oct 16 21:41:27 2007. "there was even a space on the rollsign for a short "B" route, from 47-50th to Times Square."That actually seems like a pretty long B route, actually; even reversing. |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Oct 16 23:04:54 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 04:03:54 2007. These were in cars with modern programs... |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 17:24:31 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Oct 16 19:44:02 2007. I don't recall anything ever being mentioned about that and I rode with T/Master Abere on some of the R-44 clearance tests on the Eastern Division. |
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| (504099) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 00:44:51 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Oct 16 19:44:02 2007. According to Stan Fischler in the book "Uptown-Downtown" is preparation for the the use and delivery of 75-foot subway cars, the TA built - cobbled together a test train with whiskers that was used to detect which sections of track could and could not be used by 75-foot cars. According to the book, some track sections in the subway system needed work to allow 75-foot cars.After reading various message boards over the years, I've learned that 75-foot cars can not be used on the J-L-M lines. I'm told that the BMT-Subway system was created for 67-foot BMT-Standards. So it stands to reason that there is just so much tolerance for larger trains. Yes, for the most part 60-foot trains are used. Mike |
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| (504151) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 18 06:49:44 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 00:44:51 2007. After reading various message boards over the years, I've learned that 75-foot cars can not be used on the J-L-M lines.Correct. There were spots on the rest of the BMT too, but those spots were corrected before the 75 foot cars came. |
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| (504299) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Oct 18 12:28:09 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 18 06:49:44 2007. I don't really understand Why the choice was made Not to fix the el's so 75ft cars could operate along Broadway,Myrtle,Jamaica,Fulton,Canarsie,but WERE repaired along all southern routes...Take a look at the L line today..its a PRIME REASON that they SHOULD have made the attempt to SOME degree. Question IS..was a MAJOR short coming on the TA's[later MTA's] part...? Was it "social bias"..? Was it a funding issue..? I don't believe it could have been a social issue..due to the very simple fact that the A line runs thur the VERY HEART of Bedford AND Harlem.. As a matter of fact,the A line WAS the LIFE LINE of those communites for travel between the two as Blacks moved about to different nabs. The TA planned to link the Broadway El with it planned SECOND AVENUE SYSTEM..did the cancelling of this "plan" also place the platform extensions/wayside repair program on the "back burner"? No..I believe it was a little of all the above. The MTA DID have funding issues due to Robert Moses's being the thorn in the bush..and I also believe that the programe WOULD have gotten off the ground IF money was available..but North Brooklyn WAS declining during those days...and service levels were dropping[some say it was INDUCED BY THE MTA TO JUSTIFY service cuts..see MYRTLE AVENUE EL for example].. Today..it would be a waste of time..as the so called "long car" has proven that longer does not mean better if it's not designed properly[4 sets of doors by 75ft compared to 4 sets of doors by 60ft doesn't make sense..the NEW longer cars Should have had 5 sets..for EQUAL LOADING] In any case.the Ideal car length for the subway would be 65 ft[enough to fit the BMT EASTERN PLATFORMS at 520ft] One will never truly know what went wrong. The REAL reasons why is shrouded in mystery,that no one will be telling. |
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| (504307) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 18 12:38:18 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Edwards! on Thu Oct 18 12:28:09 2007. I also think it was a combination of all of the above. The biggest of course was funding and timing. I believe they truly PLANNED to do all the lines, however, of course they started with the lines that were the busiest or most important, or also easiest to transform. There's no lie that the Eastern Division lines were of lower priority, as they weren't used as much as the other lines. So they started out with the other lines first, and through progression would have gotten to the East had the shit not hit the fans and money completely ran out. By the time they would have gotten to the east, they didn't even have enough money to run the system as it was, much less make changes to lesser used lines, so of course the East suffered. |
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| (504317) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 18 12:53:59 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Oct 15 21:05:16 2007. If I am not mistaken, the 7/4/76 fantrap that ran to Metropolitan, also ran to Canarsie via the J line. |
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| (504462) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 17:10:10 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 00:44:51 2007. Actually, the BMT subway and even some dual contract portions of the IRT were built to clearances for then standard size RAILROAD coaches which in reality meant the LIRR MP-54s wahich were 60 ft lomg X 10 ft wide. When the BRT started designing its steel cars, it first came up with a car that was the same size as its wooden el cars and one, 998 was built. The BRT being a rather progressive outfit realized that since the new tunnels were being built for railroad size coaches kept expanding the size of its new car design until the maximum possible length operable of 67 ft was reached. Since the tunnels were only designed for 60 ft cars, however, the end excess of the cars necessitated by modified truck placement to clear the tunnels required that the end doors of the cars remain locked at all times between the cars as well at he ends of the train. This was a similar problem that was encountered by the TA when the R-44s were being designed. |
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| (504464) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 17:12:50 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Oct 16 22:07:16 2007. How could the B operate from 47/50 to Times Sq? There is no Times Sq station on the 6 Av Line. 47/50 to 57/6 is probably what you mean since that was a genuine service in the late 1970s. |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Thu Oct 18 17:23:24 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Oct 16 22:07:16 2007. About 10 years ago a trainmaster sent a train of R68`s down the J line.it made it as far as cresent st& couldn`t make the curve.this is from an issue of the bulletin from the ERA. |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 18 17:31:55 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by TunnelRat on Thu Oct 18 17:23:24 2007. About 10 years ago a trainmaster sent a train of R68`s down the J line.it made it as far as cresent st& couldn`t make the curve.this is from an issue of the bulletin from the ERA.I assume this was a deadhead move. Those platforms are too short for an 8 car train of R-68s. Bill "Newkirk" |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Thu Oct 18 17:41:29 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by Newkirk Images on Thu Oct 18 17:31:55 2007. I believe it was accidental,there was no mention of passangers. |
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Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Oct 18 18:44:02 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by TunnelRat on Thu Oct 18 17:23:24 2007. This is fact? Wow, if this is true, and not urban legend, I wonder why this hasn't been made too public. It's possible I guess, as I remember N trains used to be R68's in the 90's, so it may have been an errant N train? I still find it hard to believe as that would also mean that doors were opening over open el structure or tunnel, as the stations are too short. I can't imagine it made it to Crescent with passengers, much less with a conductor that would allow the doors to open like that. |
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| (504516) | |
Re: R44's on the Eastern Division |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 18:45:59 2007, in response to Re: R44's on the Eastern Division, posted by TunnelRat on Thu Oct 18 17:23:24 2007. I doubt that a trainmaster would have sent any train anyplace since by that time all the trainmasters had been replaced by superintendents. |
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