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NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005 Hi, I'm from England, and this is the first time I've posted on this message board.I'm interested to know what the highest timetabled trains per hour (tph) frequency is on the NYC Subway, and on which line? Also, what is the timetabled frequency in trains per hour of the two more simple end to end lines - L, and 7 ? Just for comparison, other maximum timetabled tph figures for other metros are:- London - 30tph (Northern, and Central Lines) Paris - 36tph (Line 4) Tokyo - 30tph Hong Kong - 28.5tph Singapore - 28tph Moscow - 40tph! Washington DC - 24tph |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Broadway Junction on Thu Feb 10 18:50:38 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. Define what you mean by "line"? Do you mean a route, a stretch of track, or all of a line (inclduding all tracks)? Do you mean in one direction or in both directions?The Queens Blvd Express tracks (E/F routes) have the highest train frequency, 30tph, while the #7 has the highest single route frequency, about 24-28tph. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 19:00:48 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Broadway Junction on Thu Feb 10 18:50:38 2005. The definition is the number of trains per hour, per direction, per track. However, it only has to be for a short stretch of track, not the whole line.I think you pretty much answered my question there anyway. Thanks. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 10 19:17:04 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. The L is 15 tph. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 10 20:36:54 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. If you want to see what NYC used to be like. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 21:18:59 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. Stephan: One thing you missed. We operate NYCTA subways on a 24 hour basis. Most of those systems shut down for at least eight hours a day with limited weekend runs. Our system is still running controls from the time of Thomas Edison (caveat to Signals: upgraded)while most of your displayed systems have newer signals and controls. We also move a heck of a lot of passengers on nearly 700 miles of active tracks verrrry safely. Sure our subways are dim and dirty (caveat to CTAs: you work hard) but for one two-buck fare, you can go anywhere, even ride all day and night in a circle to nowhere. One thing those metros NEVER had a connection to was 'FREEDOMLAND.' |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 10 21:38:40 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 21:18:59 2005. We operate NYCTA subways on a 24 hour basis. Most of those systems shut down for at least eight hours a day with limited weekend runs.Are you implying that NYCT shutdown for 8 hours/day back in 1954? Our system is still running controls from the time of Thomas Edison (caveat to Signals: upgraded) while most of your displayed systems have newer signals and controls. Moscow does not use new signals or controls. It is a block system with manual control. BTW, they ran 42 tph (reverse direction) on the Third Ave El in 1949. Those signals and controls predated Edison. :=) |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 22:00:35 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 10 21:38:40 2005. I'm not an expert. This isn't the year of my birth. Moscow subways are more a work of art then 'prolitariot transport.' NYCTA runs and runs and runs, everyday and everynight. We can pick everything apart...something I've been identified with...'intellectualisation.'I take stuff apart, look at the pieces, see what's broken or worn and figure out WHY. It's my job. Muscovites for all I care can signal the T/O with a picture of Vladimir Posner. They don't need semi-automated controls like we do...one error and 'you go East.' So my error...block signals. I cannot believe they run ten car heavies 42 tph without risk, even under the gun. The original 1904 IRT control system was a nineteenth century marvel that still functions today. In 1904, Russia lost a war with JAPON. When I was a kid, trainzz could head into anti-climbers (almost.) Two trainzz in a station with a third poking the platform. Babushkas sweep the platforms and polish the chandeliers. We have fluorescent T12 bulbs. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 11 00:36:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 22:00:35 2005. Stephen Bauman's nonsense aside, Moscow's Metro carries 10 million daily riders. It is a marvelous system.However, Metro does not have express and local service or the kind of line merges and separations NYCTA has to deal with. It also does not have the same injury-related legal liability rules NYCTA has to observe. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Fytton on Fri Feb 11 06:12:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 22:00:35 2005. "Moscow subways are more a work of art then 'prolitariot transport.'"The two are not in conflict. Just because something is beautiful deosn't mean it isn't used. As noted earlier in this thread the Moscom Metro runs very high frequencies. I haven't been to Moscow, but in St Petersburg - where the metro is a similar but smaller system - the frequencies were about 30-40 tph (every 1.5-2 minutes) and the trains were very crowded. As for proletarian - some of the heavily-used destination stations in the outer areas of the city were in areas that were clearly very depressing, poor and deprived. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Fytton on Fri Feb 11 06:15:02 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. "Hi, I'm from England, and this is the first time I've posted on this message board."Welcome. Are you *in* England, or an ex-pat Brit living in the USA? There are several of us on this board living in England, and we occasionally run subchatters (formerly subtalkers) railfanning trips on the London Underground. I am trying to get one organised for this spring. Fytton (Bedford, UK) |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Alargule on Fri Feb 11 07:25:46 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 10 20:36:54 2005. Hmmm...seems the Lex was already at its maximum capacity, over 50 years ago. Makes you wonder...:-S |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 08:16:28 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Alargule on Fri Feb 11 07:25:46 2005. seems the Lex was already at its maximum capacity, over 50 years ago.They are operating only 26 tph today; that's an almost 20% decrease in rush hour service levels. Passenger rush hour levels were also higher back then. However, the reduction is service level is greater than the reduction in passenger passenger count. The major impediment to increasing rush hour express service in is the lack of terminal facilities; the track and signal system can handle 40- tph. Makes you wonder...:-S Actually, there was a TA report back around 1955 that stated that the existing Lex could handle much more volume. It was the TA's justification for eliminating Third Ave El service. :=( |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Alargule on Fri Feb 11 08:53:22 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 08:16:28 2005. BIG MISTAKE, if you ask me. But the idea of bringing back EL service to Manhattan, even with the slender design standards of today, would meet with a lot of Pavlovian resistance, I'm afraid... |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 11 09:23:24 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 08:16:28 2005. Eliminating the Third Av El was a mistake, but it's pointless to cry about it now. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 11 09:25:02 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Fytton on Fri Feb 11 06:12:19 2005. And would be even more deprived if they didn't have transit service.I take my hat off to the Moscow Metro. It is truly a critical utility and an asset to its city. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Feb 11 14:11:22 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 21:18:59 2005. Most of those systems shut down for at least eight hours a day with limited weekend runs.In Tokyo and Paris it's four to five hours only and all the lines are also open on weekends. Paris' system is older than New York's, yet they have successfully introduced ATO and OPTO. New York simply missed the boat during the 70s financial crisis. The R-44 were supposed to eventually run on ATO. |
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Moscow metro trains per hour |
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Posted by Kotiara on Fri Feb 11 15:28:19 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 10 21:38:40 2005. Stephen Bauman wrote:"Moscow does not use new signals or controls. It is a block system with manual control." Moscow metro has different signaling and controlling systems on different lines. Line 3 & 4: block system with manual control and automatic emergency stop (since it was built in 1930s-1950s). Line 2, 5, 6, 7 & 11: block system with lights and automatic speed control, OPTO (Line 5, 6 & 7 built in 1950s-1970s; Line 2 & 11 changed signaling at the end of 1970s). Line 1, 8, 9 & 10: block system with different block lengths, no lights and automatic speed control, OPTO (Line 8, 9 & 10 built in 1980s-1990s; Line 1 changed signaling in 2002). Only signaling systems with automatic speed control allow 40 and more trains per hour (the theoretical maximum is 45 tph but it's impossible to hold such schedule at real). Line 3 and Line 4 run about 30-35 tph. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Fri Feb 11 17:13:49 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 08:16:28 2005. I wonder how many other LOS maps or guides are out there, aside from this be-bop-era map. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Fri Feb 11 19:42:32 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Wado MP73 on Fri Feb 11 14:11:22 2005. I'm sorry to generate some flak but not sorry about what NYCTA does.Sure, many systems are older and have been upgraded many times over BUT they don't cover the track miles like we have here nor move so many 'geese.' In engineering, we say 'If it's not broke, don't fix it.' Well, the system rested on its 'laurels' because it always worked. Malbone Street was a major disaster and nothing ever came close since. Nerve gas in Tokyo, fire in Korea, bombings in Spain. Trainzzz run 24/7....waits no more than 15 minutes....two bucks a ride to anywhere. ATO has been in the works, OPTO is here, CBTC is moving on. Overseas, they don't have unions barking or riders complaining of excessive fare increases. Would you pay five bucks for a token? We also have a POOR working minority that maintains the hidden infrastructure that keeps our city alive. Lets shut the system down totally eight hours a day, weekends no more than twelve hours. Five car trainsets, no AC in summer, limited heat in winter. Empty trains sit in stations sit till they have sufficient riders. Cut down lighting. All saves fuel and money. Then, come back to me about Paris and Tokyo. Two bucks a ride is a blessing. 'Change back from your dollar at MacDonalds.' Can't even buy frenchie fries after tax for a buck. Can of Coca-Cola...eighty three cents. Ride on NYCTA subway....priceless. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 21:24:02 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Fri Feb 11 17:13:49 2005. I wonder how many other LOS maps or guides are out there, aside from this be-bop-era map.The only other one that I know of was published by the BOT for August 1949. I was able to make a xerox copy at a reference library. Unfortuantely it was a color diagram and the xerox was bw. It was not suitable for web display. (The library had a deal with the copier vendor which prohibited me from bringing my own color scanner). There were some differences between the two dates. The Third Ave El had not been truncated below Chatham Sq. This permitted them to operate 42 tph Chatham Sq and 129th St. They even operated 35 tph in the Bronx despite the grade crossing for the Bronx Park Stub. Queens service did not reflect the great building boom in the late 40's and early 50's. The Queens Blvd Line had only 30 tph; the Flushing Line only 27 tph and the Astoria Line only 12 tph with 6 tph turned at the Plaza. However the 155th St Shuttle was chugging along at 7 tph; Similarly, the Fulton St Line had only local service to BWAY-ENY at 18 tph. |
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Re: Moscow metro trains per hour |
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Posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 05:40:17 2005, in response to Moscow metro trains per hour, posted by Kotiara on Fri Feb 11 15:28:19 2005. As well as the quite advanced automatic block signalling that the Moscow Metro uses, the other most important factor in running 40tph is the huge reversing capacity of the termini. At the termini the trains are double ended (i.e a driver at both ends), allowing a train to travel from the arrival platform to the departure platform via the turnback track in just over 60secs. Only one turnback track is usually needed, but two are usually provided for times of service problems. There are also tracks flanking the turnback tracks, allowing for future line extensions, but also as an overrun track, allowing trains to run in close behind the train entering the turnback tracks.There are similar arrangements at all ex-termini on the line, and a few other sites. This allows a high reversing capacity even at the rare times of service disruption. The simple end to end running of the Moscow metro also helps in keeping up the high tph, as there are no junction conflicts to worry about. Moscovites also tend not to obstruct closing doors (they are happy to wait 90secs for the next train), and they also don't tend to try and board trains heading into the turnback. (These unfortunately both tend to occur quite often on many Western metro systems!) Thus the station dwell times are often little more than 20secs, helping to allow for 40tph running. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 05:54:05 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 11 21:24:02 2005. I was quite surprised that on the 1954 map, the Flushing Line was shown to run 36tphpd at the Times Square end of the line. If this was the case, it would (as far as I know) have made the Times Square terminus the busiest twin track reverse in platforms terminus of any heavy rail metro system World. 36tphpd through a scissors crossover is quite impressive, the present busiest scissors crossover on a heavy rail metro in the World is now just 32tphpd (Moscow and Tokyo). |
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Re: Moscow metro trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 12 08:24:16 2005, in response to Re: Moscow metro trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 05:40:17 2005. As well as the quite advanced automatic block signalling that the Moscow Metro uses, the other most important factor in running 40tph is the huge reversing capacity of the termini.NYCT's block system is not as primitive as the TA's brass would have one believe. Signal spacing decreases with the approach of stations and many stations have timed signals to permit following trains to run close to leaving train. NYCT's primitive block system is designed to handle 40 tph at intermediate stations (with 30 seconds dwell time) and is very close to the theoretical limit imposed by braking, acceleration and dwell time. Most NYCT lines branch out and have multiple termini. This means that individual termini do not have to handle the full volume of intermediate stations. Thus the station dwell times are often little more than 20secs, helping to allow for 40tph running. This is a chicken and egg question. More frequent service levels mean that there will be fewer people boarding and leaving at each station on each individual train. This means that less dwell time will be required. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 12 08:42:26 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 05:54:05 2005. I was quite surprised that on the 1954 map, the Flushing Line was shown to run 36tphpd at the Times Square end of the line.I've been using the Flushing Line since the early 1950's. I was a regular user, when it operated at 36 tph. Today's paltry 28 tph is my surprise. OTOH, trains appear to be less crowded today, than they were in the 60's and early 70's. it would (as far as I know) have made the Times Square terminus the busiest twin track reverse in platforms terminus of any heavy rail metro system World. In 1914, the Third Ave El was reported to have intervals of 45 seconds. It had two termini: City Hall and South Ferry. Both were twin track termini with bumper blocks. BTW, it shared the South Ferry terminal with the Second Ave El which was reported to have intervals of 2 minutes. That's a total of 110 tph to be shared by two termini. At least one of them had to beat 36 tph. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Sat Feb 12 12:16:18 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Feb 11 09:25:02 2005. Let's face it - Communists are good at building subway stations. (Especially the Russian variety of Communists.) |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 12:22:24 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 12 08:42:26 2005. Quote: In 1914, the Third Ave El was reported to have intervals of 45 seconds. It had two termini: City Hall and South Ferry. Both were twin track termini with bumper blocks. BTW, it shared the South Ferry terminal with the Second Ave El which was reported to have intervals of 2 minutes. That's a total of 110 tph to be shared by two termini. At least one of them had to beat 36 tph.But how long were the trains on the third Ave El? The longer the train, the less the number of trains per hour that can be run. I know of quite a few light rail systems, and even one metro system with very short trains (Budapest) that can run 45tph through a scissors crossover. However, turning much over 30tph through a scissors crossover with typical heavy rail metro trains of 100-200m in length is quite a feat! Were there any special operations in place at Times Square when the Flushing Line ran 36tph to keep things on the move, such as closing doors prior to departure? Also, were there any speed control signals limiting speeds approaching the bumper blocks that seem to plague the capacity of dead-end termini ever since the Moorgate crash in London? (Although this was obviously before the Moorgate crash). |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 12 20:22:21 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 12:22:24 2005. how long were the trains on the third Ave El?The same source states: "Maximum service at one time in rush hours, 93 trains or 663 cars." The Second Ave El was 41 trains or 257 cars. That comes to 7.1 and 6.3 cars per train. The cars were approximately 50 feet (15m)long. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sat Feb 12 21:48:30 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Sat Feb 12 12:22:24 2005. Times Square has long tail tracks. Speeds are limited severely approaching bumper blocks, but that's not an issue at Times Square (unless a train is stored on one of the tail tracks). |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Fytton on Mon Feb 14 06:26:10 2005, in response to Re: NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by tracksionmotor on Thu Feb 10 21:18:59 2005. "Most of those systems shut down for at least eight hours a day with limited weekend runs."So far as London is concerned it is about four hours (1-5 a.m. approx.), and the weekend service is reasonably generous (approximately equal to weekday midday off-peak levels), and the Tube is heavily used at weekends. Incidentally, TfL is currently seeking public opinion on keeping the Tube open an hour later on Friday and Saturday nights than on other nights; the downside is that it would open an hour later on Saturday and Sunday mornings, to continue to give the same amount of time available for engineering work. |
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Re: NYC Subway trains per hour |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Mon Feb 14 08:16:18 2005, in response to NYC Subway trains per hour, posted by stephenk on Thu Feb 10 18:09:36 2005. Paris - 36tph (Line 4)Used to be 40tph in the am peak. It needed it too. |
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