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Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 18:39:08 2007 The business section of the Philadelphia Inquirer had an interesting article on an increased interest in high speed rail throughout the country:Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail The final quote, from Penn State professor John Spychalski seems to nicely sum up the current problem any high speed rail proposal faces. We can see that it works extremely well in Europe and Asia, we can see where it'd be applicable here in the states, but until one is built here the "won't work here" argument holds far more value than its worth. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 18:43:57 2007, in response to Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 18:39:08 2007. One would be a stellar achievement for this country as it stands. It would not necessarily spawn others, unless a universal vocal demand erupts as a result. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 18:44:54 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 18:43:57 2007. The reason why I said that has to do with Britain. They do have one such line, finally, but the resistance to others is remarkable and makes no sense. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 19:05:20 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 18:44:54 2007. That's very true, but that one line is also fairly usless for intranational travel, and the UK's draconian immigration policies on that line limit its utility for that role. IMHO if the first British HSR line had been say London to Birmingham/Manchester then there would be a bigger push for other lines. Instead it can be written off by the conservative MoT folks as an invasion of French thinking which won't be allowed to expand.Here in the states I think once politicians realize the incredible number of jobs they generate, as well as the 'wizz-bang' element to these projects, they'll come around very quickly. HSR should arguably be one of the sexiest transport infrastructure projects a politician can get funding for. Nobody likes highway construction and it never has a big enough effect to make anyone happy anyway, bridges are essential, but invariably overlooked outside of major crossings, and airports are a black hole of money which breed misery. Conversely high speed rail is something which really can make inroads on clearing air and road congestion without placing onerous demands on those who take advantage of it. If properly done it can also be a great propoganda victory, giving the politician's constituents a great amount of notoriety and potentially a lot of good will for the politician who fights for them. Finally it employs a whole lot of people, so even before the line is open the politician who fights for funding may see benefits for his or her actions. Sure, this is all pork, but the same applies to highways, airports, and everything else. Between potential benefits I'd think the costs would really be fairly minor and any politician who doesn't have some silly bias against them would jump on the potential for matching money from the feds. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Sep 8 19:06:22 2007, in response to Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 18:39:08 2007. no money for it. Highway system hitting 50, needs replacement, new roads needs building.More hotair as it is weekly. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 19:11:59 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Sep 8 19:06:22 2007. If somebody knits together a tough enough case for it then eventually all that hot air can be used to get HSR off the ground, so to speak. At least people are talking, sooner or later hopefully some politician will grow a pair, listen to them, and take a chance on something different. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 20:53:41 2007, in response to Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 18:39:08 2007. It's nice to see interest in this increase, but I'd rather see it based on real fears, not ones which will disappear once they're root causes are exposed as faulty. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 20:55:48 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 18:44:54 2007. And given Britian's population density and size, HSR makes a hell of a lot more sense there than here in the states. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 20:58:09 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 20:55:48 2007. Incorrect criteria. HSR is endpoint to endpoint. Commuter rail is concerned with density. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 20:59:15 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 20:53:41 2007. I'd rather see it based on offering people a choice. Even if gasoline was 5¢/gallon and jet fuel cheaper still, we oughta have HSR. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 21:05:47 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 20:58:09 2007. The criteria is distance. HSR makes sense when one endpoint is only a certain distance from the other. European countries are much more suited for inter-city HSR because they are closer together. HSR in the U.S. would only work where population densities are similar, and that limits it to the Northeast, California and some parts of the midwest. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 21:08:15 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 20:59:15 2007. I agree in principle, I just disagree with the particulars. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by BIE on Sat Sep 8 21:15:32 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 21:08:15 2007. All the treasonous little nazis and their fellow travelers in the military and elsewhere cannot change scientific fact . Global warming is REAL. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 21:44:53 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 20:55:48 2007. And given Britian's population density and size, HSR makes a hell of a lot more sense there than here in the states.Debatable. Philadelphia is closer to New York than Birmingham is to London. London to Liverpool is pretty much identical in distance to New York to Boston. And there are a lot more core cities with a decent population in the USA (at least in the North-East and part of the Midwest). HSL in the UK really favors three cities: Birmingham, Liverpool, and Stoke-on-Trent. Unfortunately, these cities seem not to have grasped their unique position in promoting the idea. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Sep 8 21:58:19 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 21:44:53 2007. Stoke-on-TrentYou sure you didn't mean Manchester? BTW, if you're feeling rather Dirigiste, you could always run HSL to Glasgow so you could put the airlines out of their misery and avoid building new airports... |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 22:09:08 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Sep 8 21:58:19 2007. "Stoke-on-Trent"You sure you didn't mean Manchester? Sure. The pluses and minuses are more balanced for Manchester. BTW, if you're feeling rather Dirigiste, you could always run HSL to Glasgow so you could put the airlines out of their misery and avoid building new airports... The traffic density is fairly thin up there, and the Scots have voted Nationalist. I'd rather see Warrington, Wigan, Preston, and Lancaster get a full service. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Sep 8 22:33:27 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 22:09:08 2007. I'd rather see Warrington, Wigan, Preston, and Lancaster get a full service.But, um, they're pissant towns? The whole purpose is to bypass them with HSLs so we don't have to bother serving them. Give them some regional service that connects to a useful town that has service, or do what SNCF does and run a spur off the HSL to the regular tracks so they can their service. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 22:40:27 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 21:05:47 2007. HSR makes sense when one endpoint is only a certain distance from the otherNot quite. You got a real good chance of getting high average speeds even with long-distance trips. Using the shortest route (which is still possible), an express HST going from New York to Chicago would take a mere 4½ hours. Imagine doing a transcon sleeper NY-LA or NY-SF overnight? |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 23:26:25 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Sep 8 21:05:47 2007. European countries are much more suited for inter-city HSR because they are closer together.False Paris-Frankfurt = 300 miles Paris-Marseille = 415 miles Paris-Amsterdam = 270 miles Paris-Bern = 270 miles Berlin-Cologne = 300 miles Berlin-Frankfurt = 270 miles Berlin-Munich = 315 miles Barcelona-Madrid = 315 miles Madrid-Seville = 250 miles Chicago-Saint Louis = 250 miles Chicago-Cleveland = 300 miles Chicago-Minneapolis = 350 miles Kansas City - St Louis = 240 miles Houston-Dallas = 225 miles Houston-San Antonio = 190 miles Houston-New Orleans = 315 miles Dallas-San Antonio = 250 miles Los Angeles-San Francisco = 350 miles Los Angeles-San Diego = 110 miles Los Angeles-Las Vegas = 225 miles Los Angeles-Phoenix = 350 miles Denver-Sante Fe = 290 miles Denver-Kansas City = 540 miles Seattle-Portland = 150 miles It's very clear that we have at least a dozen corridors which are the same length as the corridors which Europe has either constructed or is now working on. On most of these a 125mph train would deliver end to end times of under five hours, while a 220mph train would allow 2 to 3 hour trip times, making them very competitive with air travel. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 23:30:50 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 23:26:25 2007. Aw, he coulda found that himself using Google. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 23:53:03 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Sep 8 22:33:27 2007. "I'd rather see Warrington, Wigan, Preston, and Lancaster get a full service."But, um, they're pissant towns? Urban area populations 158,195; 166,840; 264,601; and 95,521 respectively. So they're fairly reasonable. And Preston is the junction point for Blackpool (142,283) and Blackburn (136,695). The real pissant towns are beyond Lancaster: Windermere (7,941, and off on a branch line from the sub-1,000 Oxenholme), Penrith (14,471), Carlisle (71,773, but already 69 miles from Lancaster), Lockerbie (4,009), Carstairs (2,501), Motherwell (30,311). The whole purpose is to bypass them with HSLs so we don't have to bother serving them. But the HSL would have to go somewhere. It's 175 miles of horrendous terrain from Lancaster to Glasgow (170 to Edinburgh), with Carlisle the largest intermediate settlement. Give them some regional service that connects to a useful town that has service, Not really sensibly possible, as Preston is already such a town, and the only possible useful HSL place would be Stoke-on-Trent, as Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham would all be big deviations for London. or do what SNCF does and run a spur off the HSL to the regular tracks so they can their service. I don't see there being enough traffic north of Lancaster to justify a by-pass of these four towns, especially with Scotland increasingly turning inward. And the time lost on those four stops (and in practice, no trains currently skip all of them) would be far less than that gained on the London-Warrington section. Furthermore, all trains making those four stops would create more paths on the northern part of the WCML. High Speed to Scotland ultimately is something that sounds good to politicians, but is really quite a weak aspect of HSR in the UK. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 23:58:26 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 22:40:27 2007. Using the shortest route (which is still possible), an express HST going from New York to Chicago would take a mere 4½ hours.Non-stop Newark, NJ, to Youngstown, OH, or something? ;-) |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 9 00:43:07 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 23:30:50 2007. Of course he could, but he didn't, which is why he made that ridiculous statement that European cities were more closely spaced than US cities. Of course he also hasn't figured out that a high speed rail line is a very different animal from a commuter or subway line and thus density enroute is not a particularly attractive thing. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 00:49:12 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 23:53:03 2007. I don't see there being enough traffic north of Lancaster to justify a by-pass of these four towns, especially with Scotland increasingly turning inwardUnless they put up a customs checkpoint at the border, they haven't turned that far inward. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 9 01:33:01 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sat Sep 8 23:53:03 2007. Urban area populations 158,195; 166,840; 264,601; and 95,521 respectively. So they're fairly reasonable. And Preston is the junction point for Blackpool (142,283) and Blackburn (136,695).Like I said, pissant towns. Bother me when they have minimum, 500K urban areas, and then maybe they might be "reasonable". 100K Urban Areas are small, IMHO, and don't deserve anything beyonf regional service. OTOH, I'm probably jaded as an American living in a city where 8M people live, an metropolitan area of 20M people, and a suburban township with more residents than Manchester... But the HSL would have to go somewhere. It's 175 miles of horrendous terrain from Lancaster to Glasgow (170 to Edinburgh), with Carlisle the largest intermediate settlement. It's an HSL. It doesn't need to be designed to the same standards that regular lines must undertake. If the French and Spaniards can cross the Pyrenees, your engineers can certainly cross Pennines... especially with Scotland increasingly turning inward Build this as a project of national unity and as a fun way of employing some people in the North. If anything, reducing the 5 hr trip to Scotland into a 3 hr ordeal would certainly reduce the need for little shitports around the country, and make Scotland more accessible. Interestingly, if one is bored, one can encourage commutes from cheaper areas in the North to London... |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by UWS Greg on Sun Sep 9 02:45:05 2007, in response to Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 18:39:08 2007. According to the airline industry itself, New York> Florida accounts for a huge percentage of domestic travel. (And if you've ever driven down, you KNOW what I-95 is like.)Although longer than many of the European HSR routes, I think NY-FL would be a perfect candidate for HSR service. At European speeds, NY to Tampa, for example, would be about 9-10 hours. I-- and many others, for sure-- would opt for that in a New York minute and kiss those airplanes and their interminable delays goodbye. Yes, "on paper," the trip is about 2 1/2 hours. But I've lost track of the number of times it's taken 12 or more, sitting on frozen runways, sleeping on airport floors, starving because the snack bars all close at 9pm and it's 3 am now??!! I've had it. Gimme a good HSR any day. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 03:50:28 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by UWS Greg on Sun Sep 9 02:45:05 2007. Funny thing . . . Infoplease.com gives the air distance between New York and Miami (in statute miles) as 1,092; whereas driving distance on Mapquest gives 1,297.30 miles.You could easily get an average speed of 180 mph out of an express trip, i.e. assuming you can get a high-speed dedicated railroad built through the megalopolis (built-up areas), but anything's possible if you follow the German model of building alongside highways. The 1,297-mile distance gets you a time of about 7 hours 12 minutes. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 03:56:27 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 9 01:33:01 2007. "Urban area populations 158,195; 166,840; 264,601; and 95,521 respectively. So they're fairly reasonable. And Preston is the junction point for Blackpool (142,283) and Blackburn (136,695)."Like I said, pissant towns. Bother me when they have minimum, 500K urban areas, and then maybe they might be "reasonable". 100K Urban Areas are small, IMHO, and don't deserve anything beyonf (sic) regional service TGV serves lots of cities in France with populations that you have off-handedly described as "pissant". Minimum 500K? You've just cut off Marseille and its 400K. Places like Tours and Le Mans wouldn't even have a chance, under your plan . . . |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 08:03:43 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 00:49:12 2007. "I don't see there being enough traffic north of Lancaster to justify a by-pass of these four towns, especially with Scotland increasingly turning inward"Unless they put up a customs checkpoint at the border, they haven't turned that far inward. You don't need a customs checkpoint for people's focus to be increasingly far more on Edinburgh and Glasgow. And it's only natural that Scotland is detached from the rest of Europe anyway -- have a look at this map -- Europe's main urban area stretches from northern England through the Low Countries to western Germany. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 10:02:33 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Sep 9 01:33:01 2007. Urban area populations 158,195; 166,840; 264,601; and 95,521 respectively. So they're fairly reasonable. And Preston is the junction point for Blackpool (142,283) and Blackburn (136,695).Like I said, pissant towns. Bother me when they have minimum, 500K urban areas, and then maybe they might be "reasonable". Congratulations. You have now reduced the number of reasonable urban areas in England to nine: K60200 Greater London Urban Area - - - 8,278,251 G90700 West Midlands Urban Area - - - 2,284,093 D90200 Greater Manchester Urban Area - - - 2,240,230 (erroneously published as 2,244,931 (the Helsby error); still the definitions are a bit suspect compared to other Urban Areas -- I believe the true figure to be around 1,530,746) D41300 West Yorkshire Urban Area - - - 1,499,465 . G90708 Birmingham (Urban Area Subdivision) - - - 970,892 B81100 Tyneside - - - 879,996 D84100 Liverpool Urban Area - - - 816,216 F90800 Nottingham Urban Area - - - 666,358 E17000 Sheffield Urban Area - - - 640,720 K24600 Bristol Urban Area - - - 551,066 This would suggest an HSR network like this:  As the caption suggests, it's impossible. This includes factors like the basic fact that getting in and out of Birmingham would kill all the time savings of HSR between London and Liverpool/Manchester; and that an East Coast HSR via Nottingham, Sheffield, and Leeds would struggle to beat those non-stop conventional London to York runs. But it is a nice basic network shape. It largely just lacks a lot of the detail. 100K Urban Areas are small, IMHO, and don't deserve anything beyonf regional service. Depends on the sort of 100k Urban Area. Erie, PA, (102,036) probably deserves an HSR stop. Lowell, MA, (103,229) probably doesn't. OTOH, I'm probably jaded as an American living in a city where 8M people live, an metropolitan area of 20M people, and a suburban township with more residents than Manchester... LOL!!! "But the HSL would have to go somewhere. It's 175 miles of horrendous terrain from Lancaster to Glasgow (170 to Edinburgh), with Carlisle the largest intermediate settlement." It's an HSL. It doesn't need to be designed to the same standards that regular lines must undertake. If the French and Spaniards can cross the Pyrenees, your engineers can certainly cross Pennines... The only Scottish urban area with a population of over 500,000 is Greater Glasgow (1,168,270). That is much smaller than the Barcelona Urban Region (5,327,872). And that 175 miles is from Lancaster. If you exclude "pissant towns", Glasgow is 218 miles from Manchester. Building an HSL to Glasgow is just about halfway to proposing non-stop Denver - Salt Lake City HSLs. "especially with Scotland increasingly turning inward" Build this as a project of national unity and as a fun way of employing some people in the North. If anything, reducing the 5 hr trip to Scotland into a 3 hr ordeal would certainly reduce the need for little shitports around the country, and make Scotland more accessible. I don't think either side cares much for national unity. A third of Scots voted for a party that believes in independence at their last election, whilst opinion polls show that most English are so pissed off with Scots trying to run England that they would be all too glad to kick the Scots out. Oh, and all Scottish settlements bar one are little shitports by your definition. ;-) Interestingly, if one is bored, one can encourage commutes from cheaper areas in the North to London... More significantly, as land is severely limited in London, it would essentially make a central Birmingham location as good for business as being shunted out to the Isle of Dogs. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 10:08:59 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 9 00:43:07 2007. He could have also found a list of US cities with a population of over 100,000. He could then have entered co-ordinates for them and started to play join the dots. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 10:52:03 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 23:26:25 2007. You've just made my point. HSR only works on a regional level. You're not going to see a national network because the United States is too damned big in size. You won't see a HSR line between Paris and Moscow anytime soon. Most of the cities you describe may be ideal for HSR from a distance perspective, but there may not be enough demand. Let's keep the HSR proposals limited to where we all know they will succeed, which is in the northeast between New England and D.C. Amtrak's NEC is already competitive with the airline's various "shuttles", true HSR could put them out of business. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 10:53:13 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 23:30:50 2007. Didn't need to, since they only re-enforce what I've stated repeatedly. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 10:56:52 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 9 00:43:07 2007. For the most part, European cities ARE more closely spaced, especially within the borders of each individual country. Europe is still a collection of nations, not a unified state. Except for some of the former Soviet republics, HSR makes a lot of sense for inter-city travel between destinations in one country. A London-Glasgow HSR line makes sense for the same reasons a NYC-Washington DC line would make here: distance. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 11:03:45 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Sep 8 22:40:27 2007. No, people will still fly. I can be in Chicago in less than 3 hours. Rail cannot compete with flying at those distances. Only foamers and those afraid of flying would do an overnight cross-country rail trip when the same distance can be covered by an airplane in less than 5 hours. That would mean I'd have the train mostly to myself, since I qualify for both. Let's put HSR in an area where everyone knows it will succeed, and that's in the northeast. If people flock to it and abandon the airlines, other locations can then be considered. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 11:20:54 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 10:56:52 2007. For the most part, European cities ARE more closely spaced, especially within the borders of each individual country.It's an illusion: the medium-sized ones seem bigger because the countries are smaller. To use a US example, in terms of Maine, Portland is a large city. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 11:22:03 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 11:03:45 2007. No, people will still fly. I can be in Chicago in less than 3 hours. Rail cannot compete with flying at those distances. Only foamers and those afraid of flying would do an overnight cross-country rail trip when the same distance can be covered by an airplane in less than 5 hours. That would mean I'd have the train mostly to myself, since I qualify for both.Flying's horrible. It just gives a whole load of wannabe stormtroopers the opportunity to pester you. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Charles G on Sun Sep 9 11:58:43 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by WillD on Sat Sep 8 23:26:25 2007. It is worth considering, though, that for many of the corridors you describe HSR is not competing with air travel but rather with auto travel.Given the spread of most of the US cities you list out of the downtowns and out to their suburban areas, the HSR trips will frequently require significant transportation (i.e. not a short cab or subway/light rail/bus ride) to and from the stations at each end of the trip whereas auto travel will be point to point. Had HSR been in place even 25 years ago, this might not have been the case. OTOH, I think that a compelling case could be made that -- over a 10-15 year period -- a quality regional HSR network would reverse the flight of businesses (and people) from downtowns. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:01:48 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 11:22:03 2007. I agree. I hate flying. But no other means of travel can take you between point A and point B at over 600 MPH. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:06:16 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 11:20:54 2007. Distance wise, they're close. There are few cities in Europe which are farther apart than Chicago is to New York within the boundaries of an individual nation, excluding Russia. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:08:47 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Charles G on Sun Sep 9 11:58:43 2007. I don't think HSR can compete with driving on most levels. It can with communal transportation methods, like air travel and bus travel, but too many Americans cling to the freedom the car culture affords them, and nothing sort of a revolution can change that. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 12:16:28 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Charles G on Sun Sep 9 11:58:43 2007. Given the spread of most of the US cities you list out of the downtowns and out to their suburban areas, the HSR trips will frequently require significant transportation (i.e. not a short cab or subway/light rail/bus ride) to and from the stations at each end of the trip whereas auto travel will be point to point.Had HSR been in place even 25 years ago, this might not have been the case. And for precisely this reason, HSR should be based on city populations (and to a lesser extent densities), not metro ones. HSR is good for cities, but less good for sprawl. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 12:17:07 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:01:48 2007. I agree. I hate flying. But no other means of travel can take you between point A and point B at over 600 MPH.I'd probably re-evaluate the need to get to point B. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:31:28 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 12:17:07 2007. Most people won't. For the vast majority of people, the word "travel" means the destination, not how you got there. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 13:32:12 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 12:06:16 2007. There are few cities in Europe which are farther apart than Chicago is to New York within the boundaries of an individual nation, excluding Russia.That's because the individual nations are small, far closer to the size of US states. The first and third largest urban areas in the EU, Paris and Madrid, are a similar distance apart. Here is a useful map to compare scale. But seriously, in terms of population density, ten US states (plus DC of course) beat the EU's median member state (France). They are: NJ, RI, MA, CT, MD, NY, DE, FL, OH, and PA. And if you take the lower quartile (Ireland), you can include IL, CA, HI, VA, MI, IN, and NC. (And, incidentally, all but 13 big empty states beat Finland.) This gives quite a large contiguous area that is EU-comparable:  Green = France+ Yellow = Ireland+ Pink = Finland+ Gray = the sort of states that are of such Siberian density that they do nothing for the overall US figures |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 9 14:12:17 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 10:52:03 2007. "You won't see a HSR line between Paris and Moscow anytime soon."how about city pairs in Russia eventually linking with city pairs in east Europe and eventually Western Europe?. Furthermore, in areas with long distances PARTICULARLY, high speed FREIGHT rail may be a solution for bringing goods to market over long distances. Any passenger service which shares such a network would have to be HSR. If Russia pulls its head out of its butt and lets capitalism operate (within limits of sanity, NO laissez-faire) all of this could happen. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 9 14:30:09 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 11:03:45 2007. Lemme see, Get to the airport 2 hours before flight so the TSA drones can see that you aren't on the no fly list and hope to God some bank robber dcesn't share your name, then have to take your shoes off and go through other degrading rituals because of the innately very dangerous potential that a crazed Muslim fundamentalist can convert your airplane into a weapon of mass destruction and then squeeze into a TINY space for the flight itself. If the weather is unfavorable ANYWHERE on your route, you face the real potential for either departure or arrival delays at any of the airports you originate from, land at or take off from during the flight. When you MERCIFULLY are allowed to leave the plane at the end of your trip, you have to collect your luggage (if it got there and wasn't sent to another place 2000 miles away. Between the time your landing gear slams into the runway and the time your taxi leaves the airport property can EASILY be another 45 minutes. Then, if you are going downtown, expect a LONG ride. ALL this to insure that the aerospace industry can have enough business volume to stay in business to serve the military. Let them build HSR trains instead. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 18:41:31 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 11:03:45 2007. No, people will still flyI didn't say they wouldn't. They still fly in Europe—lots of el-cheapo fare-o airlines over there too. But not all will fly, like they're essentially being forced to do now in the Land Of The Free. I can be in Chicago in less than 3 hours No you can't. Time it from city center to city center, not airport gate to airport gate; and even airport gate to airport gate is a stretch. Only foamers and those afraid of flying would do an overnight cross-country rail trip when the same distance can be covered by an airplane in less than 5 hours Transcon by air is not less than five hours and never has been. And I'm talking from gate to gate, too. Transcon by high-speed train means a cheaper ride even with sleepers, and a trip short enough that coach passengers would be able to put up with it. Let's put HSR in an area where everyone knows it will succeed, and that's in the northeast. If people flock to it and abandon the airlines, other locations can then be considered Bah; people are already flocking to Acela thanks to the mess that the airlines have become; and of course, Kummant's been holding NJT and other commuter trains so it can make 2' 45" without having to run at 150 mph anywhere on the former PRR plus have an OTP of 90 percent (this is all over the news). You're listening to too much propaganda and lies about HSR; it's already been proven to you in this thread that your preconceptions are false, and that HSR is an endpoint-to-endpoint mode primarily, and a strong one at that. Further, it's not necessary that the airlines be "abandoned" for HSR to work; just that it's available. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 19:08:28 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 9 13:32:12 2007. That's because the individual nations are small, far closer to the size of US states.Yes, I know. That's the point I'm trying to make. A nation-wide HSR network in Europe would probably be smaller than one would be just for the northeastern United States. You can't use Europe as an example for a national HSR system over here. |
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Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 9 19:12:28 2007, in response to Re: Phila Inquirer: Gas prices, global warming renewing interest in high-speed rail, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 9 18:41:31 2007. Transcon by air is not less than five hours and never has been. And I'm talking from gate to gate, too.Check again. Transcon by high-speed train means a cheaper ride even with sleepers, and a trip short enough that coach passengers would be able to put up with it. Nobody will use it. 5 hours or 2 days? Americans will choose the airplane. Rail, unless it's supersonic rail, cannot compete with air travel outside a certain distance. HSR should fill in that niche. |
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