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| Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve (484850) | |
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Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 23:05:58 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:59:42 2007. No, WH used a variety of letter designations to describe various MU control systems. Here's what I can think of off the top of my head:A=Automatic acceleration H=manual [Hand] acceleration L=Line voltage B=Battery voltage F=Field tapped M=Compatible with GE Type M control I would speculate that the most common types were HL and AB, but there were a lot of cars out there with ABF, HLF, etc control. CTA 4000 control was ABLFM (as opposed to LS/MFT, which was eliminated by recommendation of the Surgeon General), though how they got both an "L" and a "B" in there at the same time I have no idea. It's all Westinghorseshit to me; I'll take Type M any day. :-) Frank Hicks |
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| (485486) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 23:11:31 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 23:05:58 2007. Heh. Well THANKS! Didn't know any of that. I just broke 'em for a living, never had to fix them. :)This has been interesting for me given my most recent project of biulding a simulator, but BIE's kids are in need of any replacements they can find (or parts) for that MP-54 ... any idea of who to ask? |
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| (485492) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 23:19:57 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 23:11:31 2007. If you're looking for MP-54 parts, there's a rumor that RMLI scrapped a pair of LIRR MU cars in July (supposedly 4209, an MBM-62C baggage-RPO, and 1391, an MPB-54C combine).* Unfortunately they may not have salvaged electrical equipment from the cars, but if they did then that may be a source. If the rumor's true.Frank Hicks *Good luck figuring the acronyms in this sentence out! :-) |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (485495) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 23:24:23 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 23:19:57 2007. Postal car and baggage car ... may not be up on my tech, but know that much terminology. I'll bet that like most other ex-PRR type stuff, they were stripped years ago but definitely something for John to look into. I know MTA scrapped some Q cars not so long ago but I'm sure Bill W already has enough of those on the shelf to keep his own (ahem) "gate cars" rolling so chances are there wasn't anything in those to salvage either. :( |
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| (485695) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 4 14:38:20 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:59:42 2007. The only difference between the LIRR cars and the BMT BU/Qs was that the controller handle on the BUs attached to an external shaft on the controller box whereas on the LIRR, the controller handle also had a shaft which inserted into a hollow shaft that was flush with the front of the controller box. This upgrade actually made sense since on a BU, one could actually take a pair of pliers or an adjustable wrench and operate the controller whereas on the modified model, the proper controller handle was neccessary to operate the device. There were actually 2 different types of this controller. The type used on the LIRR and also by the way , the New Haven washboards needed a small lever sometimes referred to as a "butterfly" in addition to the controller handle to activate the controller. it had 4 positions: off, then to the left of off were control and control with electric brake, and to the right of off was reset. On the Pennsy MP54s and also the Jersey Arrows, instead of the butterfly, a plug similar to the BMT/IND brake plug was used to activate the controller. When the plug was inserted 1/2 way into the recepticle, it energized only the control circuit. When it was fully inserted, it energized control with electric brake and a seprate recepticle was used for reset. In both cases the the engineer would have to deenergize both the motor control and electric brake circuits in order to reset the motors. Removing the plug or placing the butterfly in the off position also deactivates the deadman's feature on the controller allowing the engineer to rest at stations with long standing times. On the BU controller, there was a drop latch on the back of the controller which could lock deactivating the deadman's feature on that type of controller but as soon as the M/M would place the controller on the first point, the latch would drop down reactivating the feature should the M/M release it. |
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| (485700) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 4 14:48:39 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 4 14:38:20 2007. Didn't know that, THANKS! Amusing as far as the BU type though, every time I've ever seen those, apparently that latch was absent or broken - a PEPSI can was the deadman lockout of choice when you got tired of holding your thumb up its ... ummm. :)MY fave with the arnines was centering up the reverser, another little trick of no use with current equipment. |
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| (485729) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 4 15:21:21 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 4 14:48:39 2007. The latch was in the back of the controller so it was often easier for the M/M to just stick his glove or some other object in there. The 1200 series BU in Branford had a defective latch on one end when I operated it but I believe it either has been repaired or is in the process of being repaired. On all the Qs I operated they were always in working order. |
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| (485733) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 4 15:25:38 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 4 15:21:21 2007. Haven't been on 1227 in years ... every time I went to step in the cab, Unca Dougie looked at me like I was about to jack his car. :) |
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| (485813) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:26:36 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:31:25 2007. IIRC, the same trainline which causes the line relays to bebypassed also enables the #8 reset wire to reset the EP valves. |
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| (485814) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:35:03 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 4 15:21:21 2007. That latch is quite an enigma. I have never been able to finda WABCO piece number or designation on it. I traced back the pattern number on one of the castings and it was evidently a kit-bash of several WABCO parts designed for another purpose, all of 1920s vintage. The design is defective from a pneumatic standpoint. There are two ball poppet valves. One is designed normally in that there is always brake pipe pressure around it to hold it on seat, and a cam on the back of the controller pushes it off seat when the controller is in the center position. The "defeat" latch simply wedges another ball check valve against its seat, cutting off the exhaust of pilot valve air. However, some air will invariably leak around the cam follower pin, and the idea of trying to hold the ball ON its seat against pressure below is exactly backwards. As a result, all of these things leak a little when the handle is let go and the latch is in. Evidently the leakage is not enough to trip the deadman's application relay valve. |
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| (485817) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:41:51 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 05:21:58 2007. A similar magnum opus is something I have been working on toexplain the design and maintenance aspects of traction air brake equipment. Much has been written about mainline RR stuff, but comparitively little about traction. Regarding emergency dynamic braking: Yes, it is required that the motors be placed in parallel and the fields reversed compared to the motoring direction. This creates a figure-8 loop in which the EMF generated by each motor has a complete circuit via the other motor, which leads to build-up of dynamic brake current and torque. If the motors were left in series, well, first off the circuit would be entirely open unless a ground were applied instead of the Trolley connection at the line switch, and secondly the relative polarity of the voltages and currents would not be correct to create braking. |
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| (485940) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Bill West on Wed Sep 5 00:15:25 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:41:51 2007. Thanks for straightening out the details of the dynamic, I would have known better if I had just sketched, especally the classic mistake of “how to we get back to the start of the circuit”. I once trouble shot a remote control cabinet with about 50 points, all the command selects and all the indications were there but it wouldn’t work because the designer hadn’t routed the negative back to the power supply.I sent BIE a GIF copy of my Cad file, the rest of you are welcome to it to if you think the info or style sample would be useful. Jeff, you are certainly right about documenting the differences that aren’t revealed by the schedule name and especially their purpose. I feel some museum is going to pull a valve disc from a spare locomotive and unwittingly undo some important feature that will cause an accident in some obscure way. There was a reason why the Master Mechanic’s office paid someone to understand air brakes. Bill |
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| (485945) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Sep 5 00:29:10 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:41:51 2007. I'm trying to picture the sound and effect of emergency dynamic braking on an R27 with WH 1447s. That would be real cool |
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| (485963) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Wed Sep 5 01:51:03 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BLE-NIMX on Wed Sep 5 00:29:10 2007. You're trying to picture a sound?Hey, don't you have a video, with sound, of something like that? :) |
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| (485964) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Wed Sep 5 01:52:49 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Wed Sep 5 00:15:25 2007. I feat that as the generations pass, more and moremuseums will replace classic motor, control and air brake technology with "black box" solutions of modern technology. I would be interested in seeing your file in whatever form is convenient. |
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| (485979) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 02:16:38 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Wed Sep 5 01:52:49 2007. I've noted no responses to any of my comments along this thread, but just wanted to say THAT is precisely why I'm taking an interest in this, and was happy to receive ancient parts with everything missing trying to figure out how to make it work properly. All I can offer is that I agree with everything you say, and though I'm in my past-mid 50's myself, am QUITE interested in this stuff for PRECISELY the reasons you add.BIGGEST problem is that America no longer has many precision machinists still alive, and it's really hard to manufacture a phelic drum with brass curved fittings in most garages these days. And therefore, what *DO* we do in order to preserve what little is left? Philosphically, I agree with you. But with what BIE offered here, fact is, most "museum cars" have been stripped of what DIDN'T go to the scrapper. So what do you do? Is it better for an old railcar to be historically ACCURATE, or is it good enough that it actually *MOVES* and helps the museum hosting the old wreck? Sorry if this thought steps on toes ... I agree with you ... but "static" displays are BORING ... folks wanna RIDE the old wrecks. :( |
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| (486002) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Bill West on Wed Sep 5 05:46:08 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 02:16:38 2007. Selkirk, my main squeeze was initially mystified by my hobby but the first morning I put her in the cab of a live steam engine I couldn’t get her out for the rest of the day! I can walk up towards a standing engine and tell from 2 car lengths if it is live or not, I imagine you are like that with the subtle breathing of transit equipment. So yes motion counts.About basic skills, my house contractor threw out extension cords because nobody could replace the bent plug on the end. At the office a co worker took a strip off a friend who had discarded (trash!) a borrowed vacuum cleaner because the plug was broken. You are right on the mark about the changing times, my father taught me the colours of hot and neutral before I was 10, that doesn’t happen now (and he wasn’t an electrician). Bill |
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| (486176) | |
Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 5 14:25:22 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Tue Sep 4 19:35:03 2007. Well, as you probaly know, Jeff, as built, these controllers did not have a true deadman's button but merely returned to the off position when released by the M/M. In the mid 1920s when the NYS PSC mandated the installation of a true deadman's button on all electric railway equipment, the BMT rewired the BU controllers to eliminate the switching position and make the former switching position a coasting position. You are probably correct about it being some sort of a kitbash and since this retrofit was done about the same time as the steels were being unitized, this part may be something removed from the steels during their unitization. |
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| (486181) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 5 14:33:28 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:23:26 2007. Actually, when I was a M/M I did qualify on miscellaneous equipment which back in 1969 not only included diesels but also the SBK steeplecab electrics and due to their operational similarity also the 5000 even though I never set foot in the 5000 itself. There was also a group of new Yd M/M who were qualified to operate shop transfers over the road prior to becoming fully raod qualified. Along with this pseudo road qualification was a cursory qualification on Lo-Vs. Our little group was referred to as "Redmond's Raiders" after the midnight IND desk trainmaster John Redmond who requested additional personnel to handle shop transfers. |
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| (486246) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 17:01:44 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 5 14:33:28 2007. There's a name I remember hearing though I don't think I ever met him. :) |
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| (486248) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 17:05:09 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Wed Sep 5 05:46:08 2007. Heh. Bingbong is my partner of over 25+ years - always wanted to go out for conductor and eventually motorpeep herself, but back in the 70's, they weren't taking wimmen. She's even better at it than I was, as some folks here can attest who went for a ride with her at Branford. She's also the official house carpenter.And yeah, I'm still cruising on plenty of old stuff here because I can't stand the thought of throwing stuff away just because a toaster coil opened up (borax fixes them) or a motor opens up and needs a coil rewound or just plain jams up because the grease dried out. When something actually gets retired here, it's because the parts just cannot be found for it. :) |
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| (486466) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 08:23:42 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 17:05:09 2007. You two have an anniversary coming up this month, don't you?Yep, Nancy really does know how to run a train.:) |
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| (486473) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 08:33:53 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:23:26 2007. Was it the BMT arrangement? Big Ed had no problems going back and forth. |
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| (486531) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 6 10:29:53 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 08:23:42 2007. Ayup ... and her 50th birthday next week as well ... |
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Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 6 10:31:41 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 08:33:53 2007. Ever been on 1227 at Branford? Same deal. And Big Ed was a master foamer. He coulda operated with a wooden stick pushing the group switches out the window. :) |
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| (486574) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 11:57:33 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 6 10:31:41 2007. Those el cars had elevtor control thingies, didn't they? The museum BU cars do. I asked the guy who was running them during the centennial about how he managed to keep things straight and he said it's just a matter of staying focused. |
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| (486575) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 11:59:39 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 6 10:29:53 2007. Well, happy birthday to her, then!:) She's a few months younger than I am. Our pastor hit the Big Five-oh in June. |
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Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 6 12:05:32 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Sep 6 11:57:33 2007. And remembering to ONLY move to the right. :) |
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| (486773) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 6 16:23:44 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 5 17:01:44 2007. I actually first met him when he was a M/M instructor on the IRT back in my pre TA days. |
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| (487336) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Fri Sep 7 17:42:57 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 01:45:28 2007. Thanks for the chart. I have additions. |
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| (490881) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 17 01:19:01 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Wed Sep 5 01:52:49 2007. Jeff, I used your address from here but the mail came back undelivered by xxxx.edu after 5 days. Any alternatives? The file size is about 625k.Bill |
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