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| LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve (484850) | |
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| (484850) | |
LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:42:59 2007 At the CNY-NRHS NY State Fair railroad exhibit.  |
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| (484855) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 19:45:30 2007, in response to LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:42:59 2007. Go ahead, rub it in. I'm on my way with a socket wrench set. Heh. |
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| (484859) | |
Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:53:30 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 19:45:30 2007. ***STRIP TEASE***UNDRESSED:    |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (484860) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 19:56:00 2007, in response to Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:53:30 2007. Heh. Yeah, Heypaul actually had a stage, light show and narration to go with all that. Gimme a few minutes and I'll take pictures of what I ended up doing and you can post those along since I can't. But fear not, there's no way in hell I'm going to take an ME-23 that can still be used for real. :) |
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| (484867) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 20:22:19 2007, in response to Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:53:30 2007. Just sent aya five emails with pix of what I did - all the electricals for BVE are done and working, not it's only a matter of building the cab and mounting the gear on it. :)Feel free to post the pics I sent if you wanna ... |
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| (484895) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 21:50:16 2007, in response to Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 19:53:30 2007. From the look of the interrior of the brake valve electric portion, that is probably an ME-30 not an ME-23. The main difference between the two, which is plainly visible in the photo, is the provision for an extra contact to provide for electro - pneumatic charging of the brake pipe which the ME-23 brake valve could not do. The old SIRT cars and the 5600 series IRT Lo-Vs and Steinways also had ME-30 brake valves but without the additional contact installed in the electric portion. It seems that the additional contact was not installed in the LIRR brake valve in the photo either. The LIRR also used a rather unique brake handle with a plunger that engaged the ratchet which you can see in the photos around the top rim of the brake valve. The brake handle, one of which I have, looks like a cross between a BMT BU el car type brake handle and the conventional handle like the one in the photo. I have personally seen some Lo-vs and SIRT cars which also had this ratchet even though those systems used the conventional brake handles. |
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| (484906) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Sun Sep 2 22:08:21 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 21:50:16 2007. What was the brake schedule on these cars, AMUE?Frank Hicks |
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| (484907) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:08:42 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 21:50:16 2007. It could still be an ME-23, there were several variations and the straight railroad one was configured differently. On the ones I saw (and have actual video and manuals for from BOT) there was a fifth contact where the red shaft shows there, along with a plate on the bottom which rotated and contained the dimples for the brake DETENTS along with the spring and finger which provided those detents.But you're right in that it is not the ME-23 configuration which was provided for the arnines with the bottom contact and the rotor missing in these photographs ... just went and checked myself. :) |
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| (484909) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:12:30 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Sun Sep 2 22:08:21 2007. Yes, according to the LIRR info I have on them ... but they're not the same configuration as was done with the UE5 stuff on the subway versions. |
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| (484910) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:15:26 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Sun Sep 2 22:08:21 2007. #1149 has a U-12 series brake valve with electric portion. |
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| (484911) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:16:01 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 21:50:16 2007. The name plate says ME-23. |
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| (484913) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:20:36 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:16:01 2007. Then we can now be sure that the stand in question has been cannibalized. :(There should be a plate on the bottom which makes contact with a fifth finger contact under the other 4 and on the top of the rotating plate will be five holes for detents for each of the positions of the brake handle, along with a spring-loaded bullet that drops into the holes as the handle is rotated. Looks like that stand has been looted. :( BTW, didja get the pics I sent of what I built for an ME-23 replacement and the controller stand all wired up? |
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| (484915) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:27:52 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:20:36 2007. Yes I did. That circuit board says Logitech on it. Did some mouse give his life for the cause? |
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| (484923) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:49:29 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:27:52 2007. Heh. Actually, it was a cheapie joystick, the "Attack 3" model. Whole lot cheaper than programming your own PLA. Or even buying one. Reverser circuit is the Z axis, pair of 47K resistors, throttle is a set of three 33k ohm resistors shunted by the switches on the bottom to the X axis and the "ME-23" on a woodie is a 250k pot limited to half its normal travel range feeding the Y axis. Worked out perfectly. Since Microsoft requires "press any button to calibrate" that's what the black button does. The OPR/CAL switch is there because it wants to see those three resitors come up center-tapped so a separate pair of 47k's does that trick. It really works! =) |
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| (484925) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:50:56 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:49:29 2007. Cool. You ought to do an article about this. |
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| (484934) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 23:01:08 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:15:26 2007. That number applies to the universal valve under the car not the brake valve. I seem to recall seeing some specs that described one of the LIRR's universal valves as a UEA-12-BC, but I'm not sure which series of cars this applied to. |
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| (484935) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:01:56 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 22:50:56 2007. I *have* been documenting it along the way with pics and text and schematics, but truly wonder where other people are going to find an arnine stand? It can probably be easily cobbed up for those wanting a lot less "realism" with an old cigar box, pair of three position deck switches and what I ended up doing with the potentiometer for the brake handle and three dowels to simulate handles. But in my case, I wanted to have as close as I could get to the "real thing."Now all I've got to do is get everything off the floor and mounted onto something a bit more vertical. Heh. |
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| (484936) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 23:04:47 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:08:42 2007. That explains why the LIRR brake valves had the ratchet on the upper rim of the brake valve. It replaced the internal plate with the detents. |
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| (484947) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 23:16:31 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 23:01:08 2007. I'm sorry. I meant to say control valve when referring to the U-12 |
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| (484952) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:23:11 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 2 23:04:47 2007. First time I operated 1689 at Branford, the absence of the familiar detents was the very first thing I noticed. Had that happen to me now and then in meatball land so I knew about that disk and the spring pin having a tendency to eventually eat through that machined disk so that there was a rut down there instead of the detent holes. Both ends of 1689 seemed to have that problem, plus the rotor being a few degrees off from where it should have been which caused me to bring the handle parallel to the rails on the first try but no puffy of air. Had to move it almost over to the dump position to get an application.But that ME-23 arrangement showed up on a lot of commuter cars, but apparently the subway orders were customized a bit. When you raised the issue of the missing contact, went and consulted my copy of pamphlet T-5051-13 ("AMUE Brake Equipment for New York City Eighth Avenue Subway") published by Westinghouse Traction Brake Company (October, 1932) and then pulled out an hour and change length video that Heypaul made for me of ALL the internals of everything opened up and photographed to almost microscopic detail of every nut, bolt, contact and lockwasher. He even opened up the electric brake plug socket so that I could see the wiring inside the bakelite contact assembly there as well as tracking out EVERY pipe. :) Apparently there were quite a few variations on that stand, based upon who wanted one. (grin) |
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| (484959) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:41:17 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Sun Sep 2 23:16:31 2007. I'm going to go out on a limb here since I just KNOW Uncle Jeff and a few others will see this tasty morsel of a thread and just HAVE to read it, and I don't have time right now to go through all the Westinghouse schedule literature over undercar options. But as I *remember* it, any U designation without UE would mean *no* "electric assist" and it was straight pneumatic. And if that was the case, would also explain the missing electric leaf switch and cam for it on the ME23 you have there. So if the schedule called out a U unit and not a UE unit, then no electric brake.Yo! Unca Jeff? Is I right? :) |
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| (484997) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 01:45:28 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 22:08:42 2007. Thanks for the research, BIE!I would take the old “Audel’s New Electric Library” with a bit of salt but the 1930/62 edition purports to describe SIRT’s cars and shows an ME- looking valve with internal detent. The file picture included has a fifth contact but it just fitted in, the electric box is not as tall as the MP-54’s here, there is no room for the section of red shaft. The significant tidbit is that here the fifth contact was grounded by the detent/stop plate in emergency. The wire was #12 and the legend says “to control line relay short circuiting train line wire” I took this to mean it shorted out the coils of the power contactors as an emergency measure, if some how the propulsion controls had screwed up it would force them off (blow the control fuse, ground any accidental shorts from hot wires). Also, any thoughts about what the valve section on the left of that taller than usual pipe bracket section is? Safety control? Bill |
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| (485002) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 02:19:33 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 01:45:28 2007. Hiya ... the manual I have from Westinghouse (which BIE was kind enough to give me as a gift a few years ago) doesn't have the electrical wiring for that, but does show that the pipe in question is part of the equalizing reservoir "intended to minimize amount of reduction." The fifth contact is shown without any indication as to which magnet valve it operates and is a shorter leaf than the ones above it if we're reading the same photograph. From Heypaul's video, it appears to go up to the three conductor electric brake plug and therefore could INDEED interrupt the emergency wire with the plug is inserted.Cryptic mention of this being part of the design appears to be there with this wire intended to pick up an emergency application if it is due to a fault somewhere. But from there, can't quite figure out what is meant since there is no wiring diagram or schematic in the manual I have. This manual goes into a great deal of detail over the orifices within the air sections and slack adjusters and the piping of the brake lines, load valves and magnet valve sequences, but very little as far as the electrical bits. :( But you might be right about that ... but I suspect that fifth contact only existed where the electric brake plug was installed and was external where it wasn't. |
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| (485003) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 3 02:21:31 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Sun Sep 2 22:08:21 2007. AMUE, but using the larger UC-12 universal/control valve whichwas more commonly associated with railroad passenger cars as opposed to the transit U/UE-2/4/5. |
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| (485011) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 3 02:38:59 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 01:45:28 2007. All AMUE equipment is going to have at least 4 fingers in theelectric portion of the motorman's brake valve, i.e: Supply, Release, Apply, Emergency. On some forms of the ME-23 brake valve, a 5th finger was provided. The NYM/BMT used this for the infamous "#12" wire. I will now attempt to explain the circuit as best as I can from memory, without reference to the schematic. The designers were evidently concerned with the ability to "plug" the motors for emergency braking during a loss of traction power. Ordinarily, with low-voltage WH-AB or GE-PC control, there is a relay, called the line relay by WH and the potential relay by GE, which drops out the group when traction power is lost, and forces it to go back to the initial notch and wait for power to come back on. The purpose of this circuit is to avoid the inrush current when the car comes back on after a long third rail gap. Since 0 current was flowing through the field coils, there would be almost 0 counter-EMF, and thus a very large surge if the group were already wound up to a high notch. On streetcars, it is a well-known technique to use emergency dynamic braking by flipping the reverser and placing the motors in parallel. This works even if there is no traction power, because it creates a dynamic brake loop wherein the motors act as generators and cross-feed each other, with virtually 0 load resistance (and thus a very heavy brake). To make this possible with automatic control, it is necessary to provide a means of bypassing the line/potential relay functionality. Thus, IIRC, on AB and D type equipment, placing the line switch cutout switch in the cab to OUT and placing the brake handle in emergency energized the #12 wire, which picks up a relay in each car bypassing the contacts of the LR/PTR. Then by placing the master controller in parallel, the group will run up to full parallel with the line switch dropped out, effecting emergency dynamic braking. I do not believe the difference between ME23 and ME30 has anything to do with the number of fingers. IIRC it was a fairly arcane difference in the size of the porting in the full release position, one of the valves being designed to charge faster than the other. Also, the M23/ME23 provides a "Brake Cylinder Exhaust" port on the pipe bracket, the purpose of which is to make "Holding" both an electric and a pneumatic hold position, on those brake schedules where the universal or triple valve exhaust is piped back up to the brake valve. This arrangement was seen on interurbans but never used on any NYCT equipment that I can recall on any of the 3 companies. IIRC the ME30 did not have this port. |
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| (485012) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 02:51:13 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 3 02:38:59 2007. Just for the benefit of this one, the fifth finger did INDEED exist and was wired up to the Electric brake plug on arnines. What my manual doesn't explain however is exactly HOW it was wired up. But it is there on the ME-23's I've seen, and video from Heypaul confirms it. That's why I was surprised to see it absent on BIE's photograph but then again, LoV's did not have that - opting for a switch on the panel (for reasons unknown) instead. But arnines had that fifth finger as well in the electric portion of the stand. |
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| (485027) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 05:21:58 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 3 02:38:59 2007. You night hawks out there, I didn’t think I would have to answer this until morning.Selkirk, The impression I got was that although mounted in the brake stand the fifth contact was nothing to do with any part of the brake equipment. It did not seem to involve any piping nor the “E” valve wiring, that was already accounted for. Also in my pict it is identical in appearance to the others, the only difference is that it has its own mounting insulator base, no difference in finger length. So are we into Company differences? The division between brake and propulsion supplier‘s drawings is one that has annoyed me all along in this hobby. An EMD manual will tell you all but what grade of TP to use in the loco but it will tell you zilch about the all important brake system. Maybe we’ve got the same problem here, that Big W Traction Brake’s interest stops when that wire exits the valve casing and goes to WEMCO. Seems silly here when East Pittsburgh is only a few miles down Turtle Creek from Wilmerding but maybe they knew too well what the other was doing to think of telling the rest of us. Jeff, I think you’ve got a very substantial explanation there, it sounds very slick and covers all the points of concern. I have to wonder if getting into parallel wasn’t an essential step for getting braking force however, but was merely to get it to a useful level. Otherwise I think you’ve got the sensible story for the era. You are also right about the existence of arcane difference in model numbers, the difference in 6ET’s distributing valve from 6 to 6E is 4/64 of an inch in a port size and a stiffer spring. I have made a CAD chart of Westinghouse brake schedules and it covers a few pages just to do mainline equipment let alone subway or street railway equipment. I think I have been rightfully hesitant to publish because it is clear that this is a complex area to document and thus I have glaring errors but may be one day we’ll get it settled down before the old heads have moved on. Bill |
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| (485178) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 14:23:59 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 05:21:58 2007. You're probably right on that ... from what I could trace out on the video Heypaul sent me of everything disassembled, that lead on the bottom (shown smaller in the Westinghouse manual than the other four) goes down and then reappears in the controller stand as one of the leads to the electric brake socket. There's three contacts in there so whatever that finger does, does so through the electric brake plug. So the #12 wire theory is possible, but my OWN theory is that it might be the "electric hold" contact since Unca Jeff has explained the purpose of the other four fingers. :)But yeah, WABCO manuals make my head spin too. I've been pleasantly surprised to find ME-23 stands in the old Erie Lackamoney MU's, LIRR MU's, arnines and even on board RDC's. That cabinet and arrangement seems to be quite ubiquitous but I can swear I've heard of AMRE trains also having them. So looks like there were a number of variations as to what they stuffed in there, depending on the railroad. |
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| (485179) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 14:33:29 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:41:17 2007. I did not read the nameplate on the universal valve but you are correct in that the UE prefix would denote a valve with an electric portion. I merely used "U-12" to state that the valve was of that family. |
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| (485180) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 14:37:53 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Bill West on Mon Sep 3 05:21:58 2007. Bill, could you send me a copy of that CAD file in a format that I could open such as .tif? |
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| (485183) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 15:05:55 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 14:33:29 2007. Still trying to figure out what the deal is with that missing finger. I think overnight we got all the explanations ... but ya know? Given all these variations, I'm actually kinda glad I didn't end up with a *real* ME-23 now ... what I ended up doing was SO much easier! :) |
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| (485192) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 15:21:17 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 15:05:55 2007. If you look at those drum contacts, it probably would be easier to gut the electric portion and start over with micro switches and homemade cams if you DID get one. |
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| (485195) | |
Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 15:27:08 2007, in response to Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 15:21:17 2007. Yep ... that was exactly my take once I saw what Heypaul sent of the "action" ... sure didn't need any of the plumbing. Actually, what I did worked out a WHOLE lot better since the potentiometer allows me to not only do the five position arnine brake thingy, it'll also work with SMEE trainsets in BVE without changing a thing. Like I said, VERY happy with the way I went about building the toy. All I need to do now is mount it, throw an LCD monitor into a windshield hole and hook it up to Winders. :) |
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| (485350) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:07:06 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:23:11 2007. Actually, When I was a M/M I was never able to feel the detents on the brake valve, I just sort of went by instinct. Now the ME-39 through 43 has positions that you can definitely feel. |
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| (485360) | |
Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:19:02 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 14:23:59 2007. AMRE usually had an ME-21 brake valve which had an entirely different method of operation from an ME-23. The Positions from left to right on an ME-21 are: release, electric holding, electric application, lap (which is also handle off), intermediate pneumatic service, full pneumatic service, and emergency. Since the electric application positionon the ME-21 is pneumatically a charging position, the M/M would have a problem stopping the train in the event of an electrical failure. To deal with this, if the electric feed were interruoted for any reason, the brakes would apply in emergency as long as the electric brake switch is engaged. In order to proceed using only the pneumatic brake, the M/M would have to cut out the electric brake switch which would disable the emergency feature and allow the brakes to be operated pneumatically. The old H & M black cars as well as the oder Boston rapid transit cars had a similar system but they used ME-15 and ME-17 brake valves which slightly different in appearance, had the identical positions to the ME-21. |
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| (485362) | |
Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:20:02 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:07:06 2007. On a lot of the cars, they were barely there, but you could feel them. But on most, you had to feel your way along and listen. :)But quite a few of them out of Queens and Coney got rehabs and they actually clicked as you passed through the detents ... |
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Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:23:26 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve portion Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:19:02 2007. Heh. Didn't know that. Then again, never wanted to touch those Q cars either and was MIGHTY glad you no longer had to qualify for them when I came in unless you went to work motors. :) |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:31:25 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Jeff H. on Mon Sep 3 02:38:59 2007. A couple of things regarding the ME-23s on the AB and D types involves the feature allowing the tripcocks to be reset from the cab. In the event the train was tripped, the M/M was to place the brake valve in emergency and press the line breaker reset button. This would reset the tripcock and allow the train to recharge. The tripcock was electric on these cars and tripping would open up what the road crews referred to as the EP circuit. The aforementioned action would close the circuit to permit recharge. I don't rcall wht fuse it was but the tripcock circuit was fail safe and if the fuse blew, it would either need to be replaced of if one were unavailable, all the EPs in the train would have to be cut out inorder to release the brakes. Another interesting aspect of the brake setup on the ABs was the unique relationship between the brake plug recepticle and the door controls. If the brake plug was not inserted the guard lights on the car would not illuminate. Also if the brake plug were inserted and the C/R had the lower or grouind ke turned without having the top key turned in the button board, all the doors on that side of the car would close. Now even though I was qualified on the ABs and operated them in service, I was never able to find any additional electrical contacts on either the brake valve or electric brake plug recepticle to account for these vagaries. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:47:45 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Sep 2 23:23:11 2007. One variaton on the ME23 brake valve was the presence of the feed valve with an "overcharge button" on the left side of the pipe bracket. I only noticed these on the ME-21 brake valves on the IRT Hi-Vs and flivvers and the low numbered Lo-Vs. Should the feed valve overcharge the brake pipe and prevent the brakes from releasing, the M/M by pressing the overcharge button could bleed off the brake pipe air at the feed valve allowing the brakes to be released. Another which I belive was used in Philadelphia was a reduction limiting valve which would also be on the left side of the brake valve provision for which exists on later model ME-23s and ME-30s. Since reducing equalizing reservoir air more than 20 lbs causes the brake pipe to go into emergemcy, the reduction limiting valve would stop the reduction at 20 lbs preventing an unintended emergency application. The LIRR brake valve in question also was interlocked with the cab signal/speed control system whch required the engineer to make a minimum brake pipe reduction in order to supress a brake appliction consistent with the cab signal display. That probably accounts for that additinal device on th left side of the brake valve in the photo. There may be some LIRR people out there who may be familiar with the older equipment and may be able to explain the operation better than I can. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:52:16 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:47:45 2007. Fascinating stuff, eh? And all of this because I'm building a lifesize train sim. :)Seriously though, this is quite entertaining, the kind of stuff I'm interested in. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:57:16 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 20:52:16 2007. Well, that's what this site is supposed to be about, an INTELLIGENT exchange of information, opinions and ideas. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 21:00:07 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 3 20:57:16 2007. Heh. (insert Rod Serling theme here) ... :)But yeah, I'm hoping there will be more on this thread - I've pretty much run out of what little I did know. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 21:13:43 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 21:00:07 2007. I have shots of what's left of the controllers on #1149. I wonder if anyone has parts to restore them? |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 21:16:05 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 21:13:43 2007. We can go my leafswitch route ... you'll just have to find the relays to connect them up to. :)Will work for handle time. Heh. |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 21:52:06 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 21:16:05 2007. a sad mess.  |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:00:13 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 21:52:06 2007. Hardly ... that's an Otis elevator style controller as was used on gate cars and BRT equipment and used elsewhere rather widely. Believe it or not, those can be found! But yeah, a mess is an understatement as far as what's left. :( |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 22:19:10 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:00:13 2007. Where can I get a pair of these "Otis" style controllers? |
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Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:51:52 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 22:19:10 2007. Technically, they're called Westinghouse "Turret" controllers ... I think it wsa the "USG" or "USD" or something like that. Museum scrounge unfortunately - they're out there though ... they work JUST like an otis elevator controller - top dead center is deadman, move to right for forward, move to left to reverse ... don't have any handy but the drum, the spring and a lot more seems to be missing there, probably stripped to repair others. :( |
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Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 22:53:01 2007, in response to Re: Brake Valve pr0n Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by BIE on Mon Sep 3 21:52:06 2007. Were the LIRR MU cars all AB control like the Pennsy's MP-54's? I would assume so, especially given the elevator controller.Frank Hicks |
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Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 3 22:59:42 2007, in response to Re: controller Re: LIRR MP-54 #1149 and its ME-23 brake valve, posted by Frank Hicks on Mon Sep 3 22:53:01 2007. That *is* an AB? Wasn't sure - mistakenly thought the WH AB designation was for WH AirBrake ... but yes, that's what they used. Seemed to be exactly the same as the BRT gate cars, kept when they were converted to Q cars. Same toy right down to having to keep your thumb on top. :) |
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