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| Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 (350225) | |
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| (350926) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 14:36:36 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 10 12:26:19 2006. Nah, that was just babie stuff, but we can resolve this issue here or at transitstuff, where over there, it can keep going on and on. |
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| (350931) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 14:51:33 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 10 13:59:06 2006. Flatz don't normally occur on SMEEs unless a BIE on slick traxxxx. |
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| (350946) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 15:24:21 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:32:33 2006. Reason for 'back to back gauging.' My interest is in the reverse...axle good tries out with run-out dial gauge. How are worn wheels 'plucked off' the axle? I know how to remove a gear or bearing but this must take a big hydrualic machine! RRCI Peter |
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| (350950) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 15:42:02 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:47:06 2006. Defective base. Railroad wheels are made in two parts...a hard base for hub and a softer tread applied as a heated ring which after final machining appears to be unitised. NYCTA 'new tech' uses Sumitomo wheels...what happens when wheel is worn beyond 20/16ths? Is the wheel scrapped outright or is it 're-treaded? I've seen the flatbeds on I-80 loaded with axles heading West. RRCI Peter |
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| (350965) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 16:25:17 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:27:13 2006. An 8" flat on a wheel of 34" diameter represents about eight percent of wheel tread.....a nasty number. The NYCTA standard as I was taught is 1/8th inch measured by drill bit against straight edge of wheel gauge...,.if it does not touch, you must adjust....flat is deeper than 1/8th to be reported.A three inch flat on MNCR is a matter of concern...I mark wheels for THEM to see. One of my gauges has a 1" hole...if a spot fits within, it passes. Rail knowledge: see a defect on a wheel, look at opposite wheel for same defect in same place. A trainset with multiple flatzzz does not have synchronicity because wheels do not rotate in syncopation like a steam locomotive...you have to make an effort to look and feel them. My first lesson was feeling shelling out of sight cutting my fingers open. I always cite chips because their depth may exceed wheel truing and warrant furter investigation. An M7 married pair with one axle flat is not an isolated axle....unless propulsion failure....ATC senses excessive wheel spin and loss of traction disengaging PCE systems and going BIE...which it was designed to do. RRCI Peter |
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| (350971) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 16:48:42 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:20:28 2006. TRUE. When you 'true the wheel' to maintain wheel profile, you also contour flange. Problem is that horizontal carbide edged profile cutter does not maintain EXACT TRUE WHEEL PROFILE so excessive cuts lose original AAR profile. Most passes are to clean-up and are OK...excessive passes to true for major damage lose original profile. Basic standard is to maintain 17/16th" flange height with width exceeding 15/16ths with minimal loss to tread depth.There are many legends in rail. One in mind was operator who left Simmons in full auto lacking preset limits. He went on break, had a meal, took a 'dump' and found wheels cut to zip. Process is to gauge your wheels, cite the smaller and cut the larger first...preferably under manual control after you Z-out.....22 steps. RRCI Peter |
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| (350974) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 16:58:37 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 16:48:42 2006. Does the truing machine itself take care of contour, or is that a different grinding device? |
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| (350975) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:00:02 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:07:52 2006. Wheels do not need a flange....they are cut in such a shape as to center them in the track. The flange is a safety device...its height only grows as the tred is worn down. Under normal circumstances, flange NEVER contacts rail. Flange contacts rail on excessive curves and interlockings/switches/guide plates. An excessivly high flange might cause a derailment over a switch or swith guide 'over the house.' 1" spot is a pimple. RRCI Peter |
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| (350977) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 17:01:22 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:27:13 2006. Would a significant flat on a car behind the cab car also be felt by the T/O in the form of excessive vibration transmitted to him/her, or would this be lost at the coupler? |
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| (350978) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:01:36 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sat Dec 9 17:29:30 2006. Stuck brakes burning composition shoes.....smells like rubber or coal burning. |
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| (350981) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:04:20 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:00:02 2006. But what if the flang was worn down flat and the wheel were to go over an excessive curve? |
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| (350982) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 17:05:48 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:01:36 2006. The only trains I've been on that smelled like smoke were R44s. |
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| (350984) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 17:07:50 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:04:20 2006. Is the flang the blade part of the wheel? |
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| (350985) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:08:14 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 17:07:50 2006. Yea. |
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| (350987) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:13:15 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 17:01:22 2006. Lost at coupler. A lot of my work is damage on inner cars striking undercar...operator feels nothing. Generally, significant flatz are trainline...not isolated to cars behind cab. Somebody falls before head car, sliced like Kraft cheese unbeknownst to operator...no bump.Weight, speed, kinetic energy and ambient noise usually overcome any indication of a problem. RRCI Peter |
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| (350990) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 17:15:11 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:13:15 2006. Thank you. |
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| (350991) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:16:08 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 18:52:50 2006. TD....these guys don't know 'bump and grind.' |
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| (350994) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:17:52 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:30:02 2006. Structural integrity of base wheel. |
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| (350998) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 10 17:23:54 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:17:52 2006. Peter, I'm certain that the metalurgists who actually saw the wheel and tested it had a bit more insight and information to base their conclusion on. Thanks for your input, though. |
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| (351002) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:28:30 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Westcode44 on Sat Dec 9 19:28:46 2006. TD rules...but not UNDERCAR because he was an RCI!!!! I'm proud of my dirty hands...takes CLOROX and paint remover to clean my hands to serve Sunday Communion as a Lay Minister. TD learned the work because he wanted to..just like me. RRCI Peter |
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| (351014) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:39:52 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 19:00:43 2006. Drop two bolts securing each journal bearing, disingage motor half coupling and change out. I don't work in a maintainence shop and I have the responsibility of speed sensor modifications/repair and so much more. Steven: I am in a good place. RRCI Peter |
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| (351017) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:42:53 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:39:52 2006. I would like to visit, I would like to see how that stuff get's fixed. |
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| (351018) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 17:50:15 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:42:53 2006. Every October, MNCW hosts an open house at Harmon Shop. BE THERE. |
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| (351020) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:54:56 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 17:50:15 2006. I was there this past October at the Open House. But I want to see them actually TRUE a wheel. |
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| (351024) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 17:58:44 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:54:56 2006. If you write a polite letter to MTA expressing an interest in the subject, perhaps one of the yard superintendents will allow you to watch the procedure being done, or lend you a training video showing the procedure being done. |
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| (351027) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:01:15 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 17:58:44 2006. Nah, why would the TA want to listen to me? I'm not that important. |
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| (351029) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 10 18:06:41 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sun Dec 10 17:39:52 2006. Thanks for your insight, Peter. Dropping the pedistal safety hanger bolts is not an issue. Keep in mind that the wheelset comes with the gearcase, bull gear and pinion half of the flexible coupling. The re-assembly and pre-load adjustment are a bit more complex than you would lead others to believe. |
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| (351030) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 18:07:33 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:01:15 2006. Why not? It's not an outlandish request, and there are people at the TA who would enjoy teaching a little of what they know to someone who is interested.The very worst they can say is "no," and if you ask nicely, they are likely to try to do something nice for you. Try it and see. |
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| (351031) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:08:43 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 18:07:33 2006. I won't even waste my time.Sorry, Ron. |
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| (351032) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:10:22 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:08:43 2006. Why not, GO FOR IT. |
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| (351033) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:12:02 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:10:22 2006. NO!I'm not important enough for them to take me seriously. |
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| (351034) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:14:16 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:12:02 2006. Don't ASSume that. Google Simmons-Stanray and see if they have any training videos they'll let you see. |
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| (351036) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:14:58 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:14:16 2006. No. I'm mad. |
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| (351038) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:19:27 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:14:58 2006. Why? |
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| (351039) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:20:56 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sun Dec 10 18:19:27 2006. Becuase they will not listen to me. I'm just another rail fan to them.... |
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| (351054) | |
Video: Flat wheel spots on the R68 |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sun Dec 10 18:57:17 2006, in response to Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 8 20:53:15 2006. Here |
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| (351056) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by R68A - 5200 on Sun Dec 10 18:57:32 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 17:04:20 2006. How would a flange be worn down flat?Even if it did, there are 3 other wheels on the truck. |
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| (351059) | |
Re: Video: Flat wheel spots on the R68 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:58:53 2006, in response to Video: Flat wheel spots on the R68, posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Sun Dec 10 18:57:17 2006. Sounds like the one with the 8" flats. |
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| (351252) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 22:13:37 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 18:20:56 2006. You assume you know exactly how they think, so you conclude on their behalf that they wouldn't reply to your request.It makes no sense at all, but it's your choice. You have to do whatever makes you comfortable. If it were I, I would write and ask, and if they said "No," I would say "OK, I tried, and the post office needed my business" and that's it. But chances are good they'd send me something cool to look at, or maybe they'd invite me to check out the truing lathe for 20 minutes. You won't know 'till you try. |
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| (351348) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Dec 11 00:52:29 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 10 18:07:33 2006. Ron which Supt you think would take a chance for ..A.A young man(not even 18 yet correct me If im wrong SBR) who has good intentions... B.Is not an employee... C.May Not know the right people... D.Is not an employee... E. He may get hurt then how is that Supt going to explain something like this to his/her boss.. F.Is not an employee Unless its an MTA sponsored tour cant see him stepping a foot inside any Barn.. Again unless its "on the down low"... Not saying i know of any such occurances... Im being honest Ron i could be wrong.. |
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| (351385) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Mon Dec 11 05:25:07 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 17:07:50 2006. Flang is the past tense of fling.FLANGE is the blade part of the wheel. |
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| (351387) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Mon Dec 11 05:41:05 2006, in response to Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 8 20:53:15 2006. I had a neat Metro North flatwheel experience from Southeast into GCT early this (Sun) evening....it was an M-3a I guess......didn't slow it down any either.....but man it got loud from time to time!!!!Jimmymc25 |
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| (351462) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:01:43 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 12:18:16 2006. Depends on the cause of the flats. The new tech trains should be much harder to flat but recently the R142's in particular have had a problem that causes some real real bad flats. |
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| (351468) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Mon Dec 11 10:09:41 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:01:43 2006. Why should they be much harder to flat? |
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| (351471) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:18:42 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 19:00:43 2006. Most freight cars don't have any axle restraint (frame keys) making wheel removal even easier. |
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| (351473) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:28:41 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 15:25:40 2006. The propulsion system requires the wheels to be within a certain tolerance. On AC drives, all wheels on the same inverter usually have to be within 1/4". DC drives are usually more forgiving allowing 3/8" or even 1/2" mismatch. Most AC transit cars have two inverters so the wheels only have to 'balanced' on each truck, but some cars have only one inverter so all wheels on the car have to be within 1/4". One of the drawbacks of AC drive is that it results in more wheel truing to keep these tolerances. Diesel hydraulics are even worse - they typically allow for only 1/16" mismatch across all wheels on the car and then you've got to deal with dropping drive shafts to cut the wheels. |
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| (351474) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:41:05 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:01:43 2006. The propulsion and braking systems are much more sophisticated and are therefore more likely to sense and react to a wheel slip or slide respectively. |
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| (351479) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 11 10:46:45 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Railman718 on Mon Dec 11 00:52:29 2006. It's absolutely up to the superintendent (or other manager as MTA may deem fit) to consider whether to grant such a request.Knowing "the right people" obviously helps you, but that's beside the point. If the superintendent felt there was good pr value here, or if he/she just wanted to be nice to a rider who shows interest, then that rider could be escorted to the shop, shown what he wants to see, maybe given an information sheet describing the procedure, and then it's out the door. With a proper escort and supervision the chance of injury is minimal. I think he should ask and see what reply he gets. |
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| (351480) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 11 10:48:07 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Jace on Mon Dec 11 10:28:41 2006. Why is there a difference in tolerance between different propulsion types? |
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| (351481) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 11 10:49:08 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 11 10:48:07 2006. I read another of your posts where you describe sensitivity of response to wheel activity. |
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