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| Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 (350225) | |
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| (350517) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by smooth on Sat Dec 9 14:34:35 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 8 21:58:11 2006. There's also the issue of aesthetics. Even if it's not dangerously unsafe, who wants to hear that noise? Last flat wheeled car I was on made an awfully horrendous set of noises going across the Manhattan Bridge with the echoes on an R40 B train. Like I said, even if we were in no danger, our hearing was. And it's unfriendly in places with elevated track too maybe. |
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| (350525) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 15:08:36 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 13:32:33 2006. Ok, I'll defer to your knowledge but turnings (on car) are more common. However, if a wheel is slid through service metal, don't they just swap wheelsets? |
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| (350533) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 15:25:40 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 12:33:29 2006. No, wheels are not changed out. Every inspection includes wheel gauging to include tread depth, flange height, flange thickness and tread surface defects. Information is noted on undercar inspection report. Cited defects are noted for future wheel truing operations unless defect is very serious. I never saw a flat in subways to take a car out of service. What will eventually happen is truck goes through truing...a grind or maybe just a pass...final results may result in different wheel readings...one axle may have new wheels and the other old/smaller..MNCR likes consistentsy. IF one axle measures 36 X 2 and the other axle in the truck measures 34 X 3, first cut will be to 31 on both axles to bring flange height to standard 1 1/16th inch with tread thickness of 1 15/16ths unless major defects unless major defects have not been overcome....deep chips in tread are a matter of concern which cannot be 'trued out' on a wheel lathe. Reference: New wheels 36" diamater profile #239 display '48' on your AAR 52/80/WR600A gauge. 48 is 48/16ths...three inches. Limit is 20 for passenger which means wheel is about 32" in diameter to scrap...freight scraps at 16. 'Rule of thumb' for passenger wheels is based upon 'witness grove' on outside vertical edge: If tread space is equal or less than space below groove, wheel is unservicable. Wheel gauging is not a casual matter...you are supposed to take the measurement in three places and be darned well sure gauge touching tread is not sitting in a flat!!!!! M7 has its own gage to measure AVERAGE diameter which is not AAR/FRA standard. I can take any AAR wheel gauge, measure tread depth, multiply that number by two and subtract results fron 36" base diameter for true diameter. I have my own new certified gauges from Winchester (railroadgage.com) I worked for the BEST that pushed me to learn/work/do. My former supervisor is now a CI working for a favorite Superintendent in the Bronx...two good guys. Santa Claus maintains an 'Inspection Record.' RRCI Peter |
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| (350537) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 15:39:22 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 15:08:36 2006. Wheel truing is a necessary evil. Keep in mind that for every 1" of flats you remove, you remove a 16th to an 8th of an inch of tread. Since the tread is <3" on a new wheel, you want to be conservative with wheel truing lest the wheel will not serve it's entire service life. Small spots may be noisy but until they reach 3-4", they are not doing any damage to rails or roadbed. Many buffs or pseudo experts believe what they hear are flats when in fact, you cannot tell by ear. Things such as scale build-up and shelling can easily sound like flats. Visual inspection by a trained eye is the only way to tell. The greater concern in wheel defects is the flange profile. High, low or thin flanges can lead to some really undesirable results. Way back, I actually saw the flange of a wheel completely cut from a wheel due to a mechanical defect - forming a "hula-hoop" on the axle. The results were pretty predictable. |
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| (350540) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by North-Easten T/O on Sat Dec 9 15:52:47 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 08:09:45 2006. Try having spotted wheels on an R143. I think now that the trains are running in CBTC, and are moving faster more trains are getting them. It's all part of the job.Robert |
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| (350542) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 9 16:07:14 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 06:02:52 2006. You ain't kiddin..Gotta keep em entertained...make it a "fun" trip so they WANT to ride with you again. Had a few crazies here and there..but nothing to call state police over. Overall ,its all good. |
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| (350543) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 9 16:08:42 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 10:43:21 2006. No..I don't know anyone that has to deal with that crap. But..I have been called at 3 AM for trips. |
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| (350547) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 16:49:09 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 15:08:36 2006. NO. Most shops have no ability to swap trucks or even axles. ARCH has 20 ton crane and turntable to change out trucks...we can change out a complete axle assembly on a specific truck but it is not effecatious unless dealing with major truck modifications. If 'a wheel is slid throgh service metal,' wheel gauging determines ability to resurface through Simmons wheel lathe....takes about 45 minutes in NYCTA for a single truck.....longer for 'other railroads.' Easier for us to change out entire truck than to wait upn work of others. |
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| (350549) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 16:52:11 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 15:39:22 2006. Could you please define Shelling? |
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| (350550) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by smooth on Sat Dec 9 16:53:56 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 15:39:22 2006. "Things such as scale build-up and shelling can easily sound like flats."What are these phenomena? |
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| (350551) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 16:55:18 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 16:52:11 2006. This link helps but does not provide a complete definitionhttp://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_n3_v194/ai_13557530/pg_6 |
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| (350552) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 17:07:29 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by smooth on Sat Dec 9 16:53:56 2006. Scale is a mineral buildup. For example, the calcium in "hard water" can be deposited in your bathtub, pipes etc. and you have to dissolve it or scrape it off. I do not know which mineral would cause a problem on a railcar wheel. |
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| (350556) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 17:26:22 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 16:52:11 2006. Shelling; A condition where excessive braking friction caused surface metal to flake with an underlying cavity. Spalling: A condition where excessive braking friction caused surface metal to be weakened lacking the flakes or underlying cavity indicitive of meral color...surface burn. Flats: Condition of excessive braking where wheel surface was ground down to a flat surface not necessarilly having indicaton upon rail of spalling/shelling.When you learn wheel inspection and taught to pass your hand over wheel where you cannot see, you remember the first time wheel shelling sliced your fingers! ?Shelling occurs with high weight per wheel and high speeds not found in subways ordinarily...surface metal is flaked at tread level and may pass inspection IF nobodys looking. |
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| (350557) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sat Dec 9 17:29:30 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 08:12:41 2006. I remember seeing an R68A on the B Train that smelled like smoke. Was that the 68 that you saw? |
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| (350560) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Dec 9 17:35:58 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 17:26:22 2006. Thank you. |
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| (350597) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 18:52:50 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 08:12:41 2006. Cars with 8" flats do not remain in service. You are once again repeating mis-information which is not true. |
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| (350601) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 19:00:43 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 15:08:36 2006. On freight or regular passenger equipment, replacing a wheelset is a relatively simple matter. Remove the safety straps from the pedistal casting and lift and the wheel/axle assembly stays behind. On MU equipment, there is the problem of pre-load to consider. That is the alignment of the motor - flexible coupling and pinion gear into the gearcase. This is a setting that required precise geometry and is not normally done in a maintenance shop. |
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| (350609) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Sat Dec 9 19:20:03 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 08:12:41 2006. I'm sure they was! |
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| (350612) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Westcode44 on Sat Dec 9 19:28:46 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 18:52:50 2006. Tell em" Train Dude..... |
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| (350644) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 20:58:52 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 15:39:22 2006. That could of caused a derailment, right? |
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| (350645) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 20:59:23 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by tracksionmotor on Sat Dec 9 13:38:00 2006. Thing I find humorous about all this is that in the days of "straight air" and no dynamics, you didn't have wheels locking up on the rails when the motors were cranking too hard. Makes me wonder if the so-called "savings" of dynamic braking are really worth it. Are brake shoes THAT expensive compared to wheel truing and replacements at the rate they're doing it? :-\ |
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| (350647) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:01:17 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Westinghouse XCB248S on Sat Dec 9 17:29:30 2006. Nah, I did not see it, students from my school seen it and it was an R68 (Q). |
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| (350648) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:02:07 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 18:52:50 2006. Excuse me? Ask that to ALL the crews whohad that train. |
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| (350649) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:05:18 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 20:58:52 2006. It could cause a wide variety of problems - derailment is the least likely of them |
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| (350650) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:07:35 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:02:07 2006. I don't think so. Anyone who says they kept a train in service with 8" flats is either incompetant or a liar. You can waste your time talking to such people but it ain't making it so. |
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| (350651) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:07:52 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:05:18 2006. But I thought since you have 1" or more flat spot on a wheel, it would cause the flange to me worn away too, right? |
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| (350652) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:08:55 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:07:35 2006. Alright, but it was on a B car, and other train crews heard it when the train passed by them on the Brighton line. |
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| (350654) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by error46146 on Sat Dec 9 21:11:18 2006, in response to Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 8 20:53:15 2006. That's how an R46 is supossed to feel like. |
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| (350656) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:12:48 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by error46146 on Sat Dec 9 21:11:18 2006. No. That's how an R40/M is supposed to feel like.Would you like to have the argument HERE? |
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| (350658) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:18:55 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 20:59:23 2006. The problem is not with dynamic braking per-see. Dynamic braking does shift the paradyne of subway car operation, however.For example, cars with dynamic brake do not coast unless the propulsion system is locked out. In coast westinghouse cars generate up to 140 Amps of braking current in coast and GE SCM cars can generate as much as 300 Amps. Hence the car is either always accellerating or braking. One problem related to dynamic brake, though, is when the air brake system does not recognize that the car is in dynamic brake and you get "air over dynamic" which effectively doubles the braking effort on those wheels. I believe that the biggest contributor to the problem was the change-over to composition shoes. While lighter and providing better braking effort, they do get hotter faster and can cause wheel tread surface problems as mentioned previously. |
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| (350659) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:20:28 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:07:52 2006. No, flat spots are on the wheel tread. When you 'true' the wheel, in order to maintain a correct wheel profile, the flange must be re-contoured at the same time. |
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| (350661) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:21:42 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:20:28 2006. Alright, I agree.No argument there. |
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| (350669) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:27:13 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:08:55 2006. First, a bit of subway knowledge. On R-68s and R-68A there are no A and B cars. The odd cars continue to have their cabs and could be restored to be operating cars if needed. This is not true with R-44 and R-46 cars where the B cars have no cab or operating controls.Now for a bit more of subway knowledge. An odd car on an R-68 is always just one car from an operating position. If there were 8" flats on an odd car, either the train operator or the conductor or both would have heard them and likely felt them as well. |
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| (350671) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:29:23 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:27:13 2006. I think they said it was the 3rd car from the T/O, then again, why did the C/R not hear it?And thanks for the bit of subway knowledge. |
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| (350678) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 21:40:34 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:18:55 2006. Thanks for that on the composites ... didn't realize they were hotter than iron ... maybe it's just me, but it seemed as though the old fashioned way of braking just worked better all around. I realize that not applying shoe to wheel until the very end of the braking cycle saves wear and tear, but I do wonder if the other effects of blended don't actually cost more? One thing that I really noticed when I'd get 32's was that "rubber banding" effect as they went from dynamic to shoes. You'd feel it.And of course, if you're slipping, dynamic makes the wheel stop until the motor stops generating and releases. Just a mental exercise of dubious worth on my part but we didn't much in the way of problems back in the old days except for that incident when I was a conductor where one of the wheels split. But there, I suspect the problem was the way it was put on the axle that caused it to break that particular way. |
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| (350682) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:47:06 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 21:40:34 2006. In over 25 years, I've only seen one split wheel. Between South channel bridge and Hemmel's Wye on Christmas day in 1983. Wind chill was -20 and the wheel cracked completely around the hub. Oye what a day. |
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| (350684) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 21:50:06 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:47:06 2006. Gee, what caused that failure? |
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| (350686) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by FarRock on Sat Dec 9 21:51:57 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:47:06 2006. When did you notice the wheel was cracked? Did it have a big effect on the way the train ran? |
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| (350694) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 22:07:19 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 21:47:06 2006. Heh. Well, told you about my story before ... summertime too. RCI explained that it must have been a problem with how it was reheated when it was put back on the axle ... you guys have it a bit happier nowadays with the ability to chew them while still on the axle. :)I saw the "washing machine" lathe they turned them on down at Coney on one of my daily layovers there ... a truly impressive operation. |
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| (350702) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:29:02 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by FarRock on Sat Dec 9 21:51:57 2006. I didn't notice it. I was home celebrating Christmas and got a call to come in on O.T. |
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| (350703) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 9 22:29:34 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 19:00:43 2006. Heck... In Russia the trucks are swapped out while the cars are en route with passengers still on board!(When the cross the frontier into standard gauge territory.) |
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| (350704) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:30:02 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by BIE on Sat Dec 9 21:50:06 2006. ????? I'm quite sure they did a failure analysis on the wheel but I was only an RCI in those days and not generally privy to such information. |
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| (350706) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:32:33 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 22:07:19 2006. Now wheels are not heated to be put on axles. Usually the bore of the wheel is about .007 smaller than the axle diameter. The wheel is lubed up and pressed onto the axle with about 105 tons of pressure. Much more is needed to pull the wheel off. |
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| (350732) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 9 23:10:51 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Train Dude on Sat Dec 9 22:32:33 2006. That would probably explain only one incident in those 25 years. Back when I was there, it was weird seeing a red hot wheel being banged onto the end of an axle. :) |
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| (350783) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Sun Dec 10 03:40:56 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 10:58:53 2006. ...and not much else. |
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| (350849) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 10 11:06:28 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by North-Easten T/O on Sat Dec 9 15:52:47 2006. Try flatz on a R142...CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK I remember one G.O they ran when i was Extra Extra on the 5 during one weekend they did it OPTO 5 car units.. Nice grimey misty day in Novemeber leaves was falling down.. A shuttle came in CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK real bad flatz i have no idea how that train made it to Dyre on top of that i was there when it left so somebody had a bad trip down to the East.. That was me to go .. I looked that the Dispt and said.. "You know im gonna take it out when i get to the East Right?" He said "Take your time im gonna call em now theres going to be a fresh set there waiting". Took me 30 mins to make a 11 minute trip, those flatz was soo bad. A RCI was right there when i got to the East they took that train right out.. |
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| (350873) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 12:18:16 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 10 11:06:28 2006. Does a flat on a new tech train give a more violent ride than one on an old train? |
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| (350879) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 10 12:26:19 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sat Dec 9 21:12:48 2006. I thought we resolved our thing about the R46 at Straphangers |
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| (350913) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 10 13:59:06 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by FarRock on Sun Dec 10 12:18:16 2006. Good question ....Never had flatz on SMEE Equipment like that so i cant answer... |
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| (350921) | |
Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46 |
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Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Sun Dec 10 14:31:56 2006, in response to Re: Flat wheel spots on the R46, posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 10 11:06:28 2006. Wait, it took you an half an houre because you had to move slow? |
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